So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[DVap]

I just have to change the subject for a second to hopefully get an informed opinion... I think I am in the right place for that. DVAP, you are on it with the 2.5 calc. I upped mine and still used the same amount of nic, less juice. Pretty amazing.
I hope you don't mind a quick off topic question, I just really dont want to hear; "It's all good, it's in food and toothpaste, just buy a screwdriver, go to 6 volts, switch to VG, check out the straw mod....."

Cheap feed store PG that is "USP" but labeled "FOR ANIMAL USE ONLY":

Does "USP" indicate purity, or just that it is "x" and may have other garbage in it and your cows won't know the difference, so just use it for the animals that you intend to put into the food supply... ?

Sorry for the interuption, I just thought I might get a more informed opinion here. I picked up a gallon but the odor was so strong when I opened it that I became concerned. It may just be the volume that made it seem strong....
Any thoughts?
Thanks,

On the 2.5X, thanks! I usually don't preach something as hard as this unless I'm sure I know something. 0.5% of forum members converted, 99.5% to go (or something like that).

If you bought PG that has a strong smell, something is wrong. My personal opinion of USP PG is that the stuff has little or no odor to speak of. USP is USP, there's not one monograph for cows and another for humans. Maybe other feed store USP buyers can chime in on their experience.

 

[DVap]

Jeez DVap, you did have to mention Danish export. That was one of my favorite smokes. I had a rather intense flashback of some good memories. Oh well... I'm over it now.

A question, how is the extraction method used for getting the full spectrum of alkaloids out of tobacco different from just getting the nicotine out? Of course I wouldn't try this stuff in a million years. My knowledge of chemistry doesn't go much beyond knowing the elements of water. But I'm curious.

Stubby, Good stuff that DE!

The alkaloid extraction I did begins much the same as an extraction for nicotine. The first thing done is to get rid of most of the matrix by extracting the alkaloids. In my case, I was interested in the entire alkaloid spread, but in the case of purified nicotine, vacuum distillation is typically used. (I sometimes wonder if some of the skankier imported PG/Nic concentrates might be minimally purified alkaloid spreads?)

With vacuum distillation and without getting too detailed (I've not done a proper distillation since college, so I can't speak too much on the intricacies of the process). the crude alkaloids are put inside a still and heated under vacuum conditions with the vapor temperature closely monitored. The vapor is condensed and collected. Certain vapor temperatures represent certain fractions of what is present in the mix. By carefully applying heat to the pot, The vapor will come to a certain temperature, and remain there until whatever component boils off at that temperature is stripped from the pot and collected based on boiling temperature, and then the vapor temperature will rise to the boiling point of each subsequent boiling point of additional components. Major components take a bit of time, more minor ones boil off much more quickly. So if we know that at a certain reduced pressure, nicotine boils at 118°C, then we zero in collecting only the fraction that shows a vapor temperature of 118°C. Once we've collected the nicotine fraction, it's been fairly purified. A second more precise vacuum distillation might be done to further preclude both lower boilers and higher boilers.

 

[exogenesis]

Excellent work DVap, great real information.
mega thanks for putting in all the time, cost and effort & expertise

Could be the e-juice of the future has just been born,
well with a bit more characterisation maybe...

So if the x-factor is truly 'other alkaloids' (or anything else you've extracted),
rather than psychosomatic, actual MOAI or CO, whatever,
then this could be just what I'm needing to get me off ciggies (again).

 

[kinabaloo]

Excellent work DVap, great real information.
mega thanks for putting in all the time, cost and effort & expertise

Could be the e-juice of the future has just been born,
well with a bit more characterisation maybe...

So if the x-factor is truly 'other alkaloids' (or anything else you've extracted),
rather than psychosomatic, actual MOAI or CO, whatever,
then this could be just what I'm needing to get me off ciggies (again).

MAOIs are any chemical with the activity of inhibiting the enzyme mono-amine oxidase, thereby allowing dopamine, for example (one of the mono-amine neurotransmitters), to rise. Some tobacco alkaloids are MAOIs. Allaloid is a chemical classification whereas MAOI is a functional classification.

So the pure nicotine was rather a cul-de-sac ultimately. However, entertaining the idea of purity was raised and the consideration of what should and should not be used in e-liquid. Slowly the awareness of thinking through the merits of flavorings and additives has been increased and that is good.

The focus on just nicotine has been around for a long-time, long before e-cigs. But the evidence that the pleasure of smoking involved more than just nicotine was also there.

This error is often made when drugs based on natural remedies are pursued, and often (though not always) the single chemical is not as effective (or safe) as the natural extract as a whole (multi-chemical). In the case of tobacco, it is somewhere in the middle: we only need one part, but that part is a family of chemicals rather than a single chemical.

The good news is that extracting the alkaloids is easier than etracting just nicotine. The bad news however is that no one is doing that right now (?; whether Dekang liquids are based on alkoloids or just nicotine is unclear; we are assuming it is based on only nic, but it's not certain, afaik). If the amount ordered was right, the companies supplying pure nicotine could certainly supply mixed alkaloids (if not already on the shelf). Perhaps it is a step along the way to making pure nicotine, and could therefore be made available easily and quickly.

Although the contexts are different, consider, for example vitamin E. Most vitamin E pills are only alpha tocotrienol, the "most active" tocotrienol. However, there are a family of tocotrienols and they do slightly different things. When the alpha is in excess of it's normal preponderance, it actually inhibits the activity of the gamma type. The 'scientific' studies that show no or little benefit to taking extra vitamin E always use only the alpha form. Tobacco alkaloids are made by plants as a defence from pests, not for human benefit of course, but I think my point by analogy is clear. For some people (maybe small as a %), just nic may actually be worse than not getting either nic or the other alkaloids.

btw, I've always thought the CO to be a red-herring; it contributes only to the grogginess following over-smoking, not a good feeling, and a drain on the body's resources.

DVap - anything else, besides alkaloids, that might have been extracted using the acid/base exchanges? I'm sure you have thought about this already, but people will ask this and it's a reasonable question.

 

[MickiO]

TROG: QUOTE:
"i have been reading stuff lately that is suggesting e cigs are pretty useless nicotine delivery systems.. they are nothing much more than placebos..

does this make me happy.. no it bloody dosnt.. is it true.. i hope not..

have i been conning myself for the last eighteen months.. if so does this make me feel happy.. nope it just makes me feel pretty stupid.. i dont like being sold lies even when its me thats doing the selling.."
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Just my 2 cents worth, as far whether it is "placebo" or whatever someone determines or wants to view it as. Who cares? What does it matter? As longs as it works and has been working for you and doing for you what you needed and want it to do? I'm not let anything change what I already know is true and know works for me and many, many others. Especially a word, cuz that's all "placebo" is, just somebody's "word" that chose to use.

E-cigs helped me quit a very nasty unhealthy bad habit after 31 years of trying. It has given me my health back, and keeps me from smoking. I even have smoker living in the house with me, who has picked my "placebo e-cig" as you call it, and has managed to cut down from 2 1/2 pks a day, to 3 or 4 cigs a day, and has set a quit date to fully make the transition. I haven't touched a tobacco cigarette since I first got my pv July 11, 2009.

I don't care what they "deem" or "label" the thing! The fact is in our house, IT WORKS! and since both of us have auto-immune diseases, (My husband has Lupus and i have MS, so for us, our family members and many others who have conquerred tobacco cigarettes), that's a "Hallelujah! Praise God!!" as far as we're concerned.

EDIT: That's why I chose an Eagle in flight as an avatar, I'm finally FREEEeeee!!! And it feels soooo good!!

If pv's have been helping you and doing you needed as far as keeping you off analogs, then you need to rejoice about it and not let such thing dissuade you into feeling swindled or cheated, it's simply not true!!

 

[martha1014]

Someone may have already posted this. The FDA reports on NJoy and Smoking Everywhere cartridges range in nicotine content from 23 mg to 43 mg. If the findings are correct it looks like we don't really know what mg we are getting.

 

[Vaporer]

Woot! X Factor research. I have to call it that since I'm not nearly in the league of the chemists here. A fair knowledge, but still. As I stated before, some things are needed left to the real chemists. Thanks to all of you.

The fact that snus seems to have that effect made me consider the snus juice additive extracted with PG or a PG/VG/ethanol, for the flavor originally, in the event of a ban.
Soaking for 5-10 min as suggested produced no color as I had expected. Leaving it overnight resulted in a light yellow eliquid color the next morning. Now it has sit 2 weeks and has darkened considerably. (1 Discreet natural flavor portion in 5ml of PG)

snus, by its processing, still gives me the X Facor(orally) and I chose it after reading due to its processing it has reduced greatly in the TNSA's in tobacco responsible for the bad things we don't want. The lesser the better.

TBob has indicated that due to the diff in processing, "snus" is one thing and Camel SNUS is so diff, the reason for the syntax diff. Not to be confused when typing it out. One means Camel or American and the other refers to Swedish style. Just an FYI here.

I'm excited to see the outcome. It could solve the chain vaping many have discussed, never explored and explain the reasoning behind it. Isolating the exact component could be difficult to say the least, but even if found, may not be easily obtainable for the average user to add. It could easily change the future of e liquid I think.

If the hexane extraction works out, it would be interesting to see if the PG extraction results in the same amount extracted. Or, if time soaked makes a worth while diff, if PG/VG/ethanol is a better solvent......

Maybe something for the chemists to consider and try depending on this outcome.

Your efforts and expertise is appreciated!

 

[kinabaloo]

E-cigs work do well for most people; but not everyone; and we think we know why. And the good news is that with a small change to the way the e-liquid is made, the e-cig can be even more effective.

Using, say, snus directly or by simple soaking to make a crude e-liquid, avoids combustion, and supplies the range of alkaloids. But there will be unwanted stuff absrbed too.

So the possibility for a new e-liquid based on all alkaloids is really promising.

 

[kpolen]

Good Day,

This is my first post on the forum. Choosing the right PV for myself was based almost solely on perusing this site, so I thought I'd join the community.

Anyhow, I, like many on this site, have noticed something missing in the nicotine juice, no matter the strength. It is most noticeable when I am in a situation of stress or bad mood. Thus, I really do think the lack of an MAOI in nic-juice could be a factor that prevents a PV from delivering the same effect as tobacco, or at least pushes an e-cig over the 'hump' of acting as a true cigarette substitute.

Adding an MAOI to e-liquid that is similar to that in tobacco, I just don't think should be very difficult. Maybe finding an optimal MAOI for e-liquid would take some time, but why don't we (or maybe the e-liquid engineers) get going on finding one.

There are many MAOI compounds. An optimal route to finding the right one, would be to study in depth the specific characteristics of the MAOI action in tobacco. I'm not a Dr or chemist but I do know there are different types (MAOI-A, MAOI-B, etc.) as well as different levels of effect on each of these. For instance, one may only work as a MAOI-A, whereas another may induce some MAOI-A and some MAOI-B effects.

It is probably better for experts in this area to experiment with these compounds as direct additives to e-liquid due to the fact that mixing MAOI's randomly with other compounds could make someone sick, or make someone dead. However, I don't see why it would be a problem to try ingesting supplements and/or available meds that do not cause problems when people smoke cigarettes on the side. One example would be to take a dose of Deprenyl, a known MAOI nootropic, and then vaping for a little while.

To try this with a bunch of legal and known MAOI's may result in someone discovering that a certain combo delivers an extremely close satisfaction to that of a cigarette. After that is known, then we would just have to get that compound into our e-liquids. this last step may require some more work by experts because some compounds when heated can breakdown or turn into other compounds that work differently than the original. If we need to address this last issue, then direct addition to e-liquid would take some time. Nevertheless, at least there would be a way (combination of a supplement by mouth before vaping) that people could do right away and get the tobacco experience.

Just food for thought. I think I may start trying this myself. I know that I once took Deprenyl at school and smoked all the time with no ill effects. If I were to try vaping with only nicotine, I would not be in danger of ill effects, but maybe I'll stumble upon a solution.

Just food for thought.

-Kelly

PS Any doctors or chemists around???

 

[TropicalBob]

Really exciting and pioneering research, Dvap and Kinabaloo. Congrats to both of you. Threads on "something missing" predate almost everyone posting here, but the FACT that something is missing has been long debated among e-smokers. Tobacco alkaloids might satisfy that missing impact.

I eagerly await your patents and production liquids!

Vaporer: I made a nasal spray with Big Pharma's nic concentration, using properly diluted e-liquid for known nicotine percentage. Burned like crazy. In Malaysia, Dr. Jim Loi tested the spray with some his 300 volunteer patients on e-cigs. Many developed severe nasal inflammation within a week, so he backed off and I stopped that trial. I'm working on a mouth spray now. Big Pharma experimented with this, but to my knowledge has never marketed a mouth spray. I think we think alike, Vaporer.

 

[Vaporer]

MickiO,

One would be well advised to read DVap thread on determining nic.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...erest-determining-nicotine-dvap-new-post.html

Analogs are about 10% efficient and DVaps testing proves that e cigs and liquid are almost 50% efficient in nic delivery.
Thats a hard fact to challenge.

Sure, there will always be 2 sides to anything. DVaps tests proved the nicotine content in the recovered vapor vs the starting amount.

Maybe someone should show trog the thread......................

martha,
DVaps tests also show the the suppliers tested were pretty much "dead on" with a couple exceptions. It pretty well covers "are we getting what we pay for".
At least to me it does..................
At this point, I'd discount anything the FDA says due to thier already proven biasing and skewed reporting to the public what was actually found and the way they decided to test it against an inhaler , not an analog, and then tell just part of the story that favored thier position.
How many people are using an ecig to replace an inhaler?
If they had tested it against an analog they would have had no case.

 

[kinabaloo]

Thanks TBob. (I know you know this, but for other readers: one would only be able to patent a novel extraction or delivery system, not the naturally occuring substances.)

Kelly - Welcome I also find that nicotine alone is too stimulating, wheras smoking is more mellow (even though faster in effect). This doesn't quite capture it, I'll leave it at 'more rounded'.

The MAOIs are already in the nicotine, no need to add them; just not remove them The (more or less) perfect blend is already right there in the tobacco.

It is important to stress this point: this is not about adding anything to e-liquid. It is still about removing all the unnecessary and bad stuff from tobacco.

Just as nicotine is the predominant alkaloid (perhaps in effect too), MAOI activity is likely the major effect of the other alkaloids; but likely not the only other activity - there could be other activity taking place too, not (directly) related to dopamine but other neurotransmitters.

Alkaloids are naturally occurring chemical compounds containing basic (alkaline) nitrogen atoms. There are a very large number of alkaloids; even caffeine and capsaicin are alkaloids, and (I think) cannabinoids; nearly all the psycoactive chemicals in fact. So we are possibly looking at a dozen or so besides nicotine, acting in a number of different ways.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Uh, amateur here. Kpolen, good points for sure and that has been my way of thinking also, but Dvap hits the nail on the head. These chemicals are already in the tobacco but are being extracted as the nic is purified. His goal is to find if it can be less refined to have the same effect on us unfortunates without leaving in a bunch of stuff that drove us away from smoking in the first place.... I'm staying tuned in. Hail Marys await.

 

[Vaporer]

Welcome kpolen!

TB,
I appreciate all the info you've given me to work with and refer to it quite often , crediting you.
I believe it was Whistlrr that did the Nicotrol in the mouth test. Said it tasted like crap, but had an instant nic hit.
Using a claibrated metered sprayer, nic liquid and even a little snus juice added for the X Factor wouldnt be that difficult. Diluted a little more and a touch of flavor, shhhh the kids may be reading this....lol) may have the need for a few more sprays, but give the total effect, barring the oral fixation and hand ingrained gestures.

I did try the dissolvables Ariva and Stonewall. They reduce the nic craving, but still miss the XFactor effects TB. I attribute that to a more refined processing removing more constituients.

I see it as a totally feasible possibilty.

 

[kinabaloo]

Uh, amateur here. Kpolen, good points for sure and that has been my way of thinking also, but Dvap hits the nail on the head. These chemicals are already in the tobacco but are being extracted as the nic is purified. His goal is to find if it can be less refined to have the same effect on us unfortunates without leaving in a bunch of stuff that drove us away from smoking in the first place.... I'm staying tuned in. Hail Marys await.

Just a refinement :

Extracting all the alkaloids (and nothing else) can be done to a high level of purity. So people don't get the wrong idea, this is not a less pure extraction - it is just as pure, but extracting a range rather than a single element. Can be done just as precisely.

 

[Vaporer]

Point taken Kin.

When I refer to "loss due to processing", its the general processing they use to just get the nic.
Very true that processing can be in such a way to keep what is wanted and discard the unwanted.
It could actually save refining steps and overall cost they use now saving what is needed.

 

[Vaporer]

42109,

In answer to your USP labeling question here is what I found.
"USP verifies the quality, purity, and potency of dietary supplement finished products, dietary supplement ingredients, and pharmaceutical ingredients. Products and ingredients that pass all USP verification requirements—including a GMP audit, product and ingredient testing, and manufacturing documentation review—are awarded the distinctive USP Verified Mark. Participation is voluntary and available to manufacturers worldwide. USP's verification services draw upon its experience of nearly 200 years in setting federally recognized public standards of quality for medicines and, more recently, dietary supplements that are used today in more than 130 countries around the world."

Dictating ""For animal use only" , especially one consumed by humans has to meet the food chain requirement laws. It seems that labeling allows to sell at lower cost without conflict and in no way reduces the standards required to be met.

More can be read here: USP Verified

Many years ago a magazine Mother Earth News found that in a survival situation antibiotics sold for animals had to meet and were actually produced by the same companies as what was in pharmacies for humans. Just at a much lower cost.
You can search online archives for the article.

If you are referring to Tractor Supplys, Dionnes Ketosis Treatment (for cattle), the picture showing food grade on the website is old and incorrect.
I have a gallon purchased from them and it says 100% Propoleyne Glycol USP Grade.

Hope this is of some help.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Just a refinement :

Extracting all the alkaloids (and nothing else) can be done to a high level of purity. So people don't get the wrong idea, this is not a less pure extraction - it is just as pure, but extracting a range rather than a single element. Can be done just as precisely.

Oh, "I see" said the blind man. Thanks. My mind works in mechanical ways, so I had this picture in my head of Dvap holding a giant strainer over a mixing bowl and pouring a bubbling cauldron full of nicotine stew through it. Funny how the mind works.

 

[DVap]

PS Any doctors or chemists around???

I wonder sometimes if some of the folks here actually read (or at least browse) the entire thread?

 

[DVap]

Oh, "I see" said the blind man. Thanks. My mind works in mechanical ways, so I had this picture in my head of Dvap holding a giant strainer over a mixing bowl and pouring a bubbling cauldron full of nicotine stew through it. Funny how the mind works.

Naw, my procedure was quite a bit more "scientific" than that.

The strainer was a beaker with glass wool over it, the cauldron was a separatory funnel, and the stew was tobacco extract with the appropriate solvents. But I did stir it with a broom, if that makes you feel better.