So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[kinabaloo]

Just tell him you are going for the Angelina Jolie look lol
snus does take the extra off that seems to be missing.
Kind like what got to the "whats missing " part.
The results here so far and in snus threads pretty well substaniate nic alone will help, but not satisfy all.
Check out DVap's blog and see what catagory you are in.

Just like Virgina Slims.........we've come along way baby hahaha

Main credit to certain people, but credit to all because it tells a mystery story you would have thought the gov would have figured out. Or , they knew it and decided to play both sides for the $.

<insert Alfred Hitchcock Theme Here>

As far as I can tell, just a mistake (a rather stupid one, to have not corrected all this time).

For those who desire to stick with snus even when better e-liquids are available, perhaps a new king of 'snus' can be created in which an inert polymer slowly releases WTA. So those who like the activity of snus (I guess some do) can do so without risk of absorbing any of the other stuff that's in tobacco.

 

[Vaporer]

I have something thats been on my mind since Dvap successful recovery, actually a little before.
The ratios are coming out very well.
I'm leaning towards that all the alkaloids won't be needed as a direct effect.
Nicotines 1/2 life is much shorter than the other alkaloids present. That's a given from analog testing bloodwork results. I guess we would need to assume new combustion compounds arent involved.

With that being said, the alkaloids will be present longer than the nicotine and may not be needed in full extraction strength proportions.
I can see the possibility of some using a 90/10, 70/30, 50/50 combination of nic to alkaloid ratio to achieve and maintain the desired result.

 

[DVap]

I paid 7.99 for 100 capsules of the supplement... I did hit GNC -- They had nothing useful (Well they did have some Rhodelia)... tried to sell me some vitamin C when I was looking for MOAIs... Might try online for some passion flower extract. I don't want to mess with Syrian Rue or Caapi.

-- Anyhow did some more reading and got the answer I was looking for in regards to why PM looked so heavily at particle size. With regards to e-cigs;



They basically concluded that e-cig vapor is absorbed through the upper respiratory system and not the lungs... that would explain the 10% measured in the blood vs 40% in vapor difference and the tMax question.

Exactly. E-liquid is apparently absorbed more slowly than cigarette smoke, thus the inability to produce a sudden and rapid blood nicotine spike. But over the course of the day, you're getting it. The study(s) that claimed e-liquids didn't deliver the nicotine and were really placebos were deeply flawed due to a) inappropriate selection of e-liquid strength vs tobacco, and b) flawed data analysis, leading to c) hopelessly flawed conclusions.

 

[DVap]

I have something thats been on my mind since Dvap successful recovery, actually a little before.
The ratios are coming out very well.
I'm leaning towards that all the alkaloids won't be needed as a direct effect.
Nicotines 1/2 life is much shorter than the other alkaloids present. That's a given from analog testing bloodwork results. I guess we would need to assume new combustion compounds arent involved.

With that being said, the alkaloids will be present longer than the nicotine and may not be needed in full extraction strength proportions.
I can see the possibility of some using a 90/10, 70/30, 50/50 combination of nic to alkaloid ratio to achieve and maintain the desired result.

Yes. The liquid can be diluted as is to the desired nicotine concentration maintaining the ratios of the extraction, or alternately, the nicotine can be augmented by addition of regular e-liquid, which would cut the alkaloids accordingly.

Say the alkaloid extract was mixed down to 30 mg/mL, and someone really needed that nicotine level, but they only need 1/3rd of the alkaloids present in a 30 mg/mL WTA extract. Simple, to one part of 30 mg/mL WTA e-liquid, add 2 parts of regular 30 mg/mL e-liquid. Nicotine stays around 30 mg/mL while the alkaloids get cut down to 1/3rd.

 

[kinabaloo]

I have something thats been on my mind since Dvap successful recovery, actually a little before.
The ratios are coming out very well.
I'm leaning towards that all the alkaloids won't be needed as a direct effect.
Nicotines 1/2 life is much shorter than the other alkaloids present. That's a given from analog testing bloodwork results. I guess we would need to assume new combustion compounds arent involved.

With that being said, the alkaloids will be present longer than the nicotine and may not be needed in full extraction strength proportions.
I can see the possibility of some using a 90/10, 70/30, 50/50 combination of nic to alkaloid ratio to achieve and maintain the desired result.

Cut it you like, but myself, I'd rather get the same blend I would get from analogs, and that should be the standard issue (as it is, no messing).

Even if some of the other alkaloids are longer-lasting, they are much smaller in quantity, and it's what we have been used to for years.

 

[DVap]

Cut it you like, but myself, I'd rather get the same blend I would get from analogs, and that should be the standard issue.

Even if some of the other alkaloids are longer-lasting, they are much smaller in quantity, and it's what we have been used to for years.

I dunno kin.. at 28 mg, the throat hit is stunning. I won't use the word "harsh", it's great for the occasional vape, but it's powerful.. and it makes me feel somewhat more mellow than I'd prefer.

I described it previously as "a velvet glove, wrapped around an anvil". At 14 mg, the throat hit becomes "a velvet glove wrapped around a brick". simply wonderful.

A word of advice: High voltage vaping is over-rated. Get a battery device based on the 18650 protected battery, it's a 3.6 volt rated battery, but it hits great. Regular batteries are just too under-powered to deliver, they can't maintain voltage that well under load, and thus really compromise the all important quantity.. wattage.

 

[IANAN]

It would be nice to know exactly which alkaloid that does it....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anyhow share some of this-- why not? I already researched it...

Something struck me as odd... many of the herbal cigarette companies are using cocoa beans as the base... I personally was perplexed as there are many other things I would do with cocoa beans than smoke it (Why waste good chocolate). But then when I was looking for MOAIs one of them is Catechin and Epicatechin ... tea and cocoa both contain them.

This raises a question... the E-Liquid that is "Green Tea" flavored... I am assuming they use green tea extract. Curious if that would satiate the crave more or not.

Anyhow on relatively safe herbal supplements for MOAIs...

Cat's Claw looks promising as well as Passion Flower Extract. Below are the active ingredients in cat's claw (I bolded the MOAIs).

tannins, catechins and procyanidins, beta-sitosterol, stigmasterol, and campesterol, carboxyl alkyl esters, ajmalicine, akuammigine, chlorogenic acid, cinchonain, corynantheine, corynoxeine, daucosterol, epicatechin, harman, hirsuteine, hirsutine, isopteropodine, loganic acid, lyaloside, isomitraphylline, oleanolic acid, palmitoleic acid, procyanidins, quinovic acid glycosides, isorhynchophylline, rynchophylline, rutin, sitosterols, speciophylline, strictosidines, uncarine A thru F, and vaccenic acid.

But heck... Dark Chocolate and Tea may also be somewhat effective, and safe (Not to mention enjoyable with a PV).

 

[kinabaloo]

I dunno kin.. at 28 mg, the throat hit is stunning. I won't use the word "harsh", it's great for the occasional vape, but it's powerful.. and it makes me feel somewhat more mellow than I'd prefer.

I described it previously as "a velvet glove, wrapped around an anvil". At 14 mg, the throat hit becomes "a velvet glove wrapped around a brick". simply wonderful.

A word of advice: High voltage vaping is over-rated. Get a battery device based on the 18650 protected battery, it's a 3.6 volt rated battery, but it hits great. Regular batteries are just too under-powered to deliver, they can't maintain voltage that well under load, and thus really compromise the all important quantity.. wattage.

Damn

Another intrigue!

As good as an analog is great news. Better? That needs explaining ...

Will have to think about it.

In any case, given my stressful life, I need it neat - hold the ice and stuff

ps: agrred on the bats; have always favored a beefy 3.7v.

 

[IANAN]

More research;

Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

and

Tobacco smoke, beta-carboline alkaloids, and reversible MAO inhibition

It is MAO-A inhibition interacting with the nicotine that does it for the Rats... That would be beta-carboline (Haman/Harmane)

 

[kinabaloo]

I'd like to elucidate a corollary (that I mentioned before).

Toxicologically, I see no problems at all here, just greater efficacy.

But we need to bear in mind one thing: improved efficacy will mean increased addictive potential. It's a trade-off. Something that works well, very well even, to get people off smokes, will be more 'addictive' than something less effective. However, as the addiction is only a problem because of the toxic load of smoking (there's no anti-social behaviour associated with vaping, or mental impairement), this is really a non-issue, but may need to be countered intelligently at some point.

ps: those links look familiar ianan

 

[IANAN]

I'd like to elucidate a corollary (that I mentioned before).


ps: those links look familiar ianan

Did you already post them?? I've read through about 7 or 8 journal articles on MOA and nicotine today alone...

But yes... Knowing which one(s) would be good for both what Dvap is doing and for finding an alternative source for them other than tobacco.

 

[exogenesis]

Wanted to extract (sorry) the main pro & con parts of the last several posts
by several people, as regards total-alkaloid-extract vaping:

Pros - the knowns:
1 DVap's very 'clean' extract gets the 'x-factor' (alkaloids other than nicotine) into e-juice,
- so that vaping should much more closely mirror what we get/got from ciggies.

2 It works (objectively & maybe partly subjectively) for DVap
- giving lowered nicotine intake with a better overall feel/experience
- probably (hopefully) even more so for stronger 'ciggie-addicted' folks (DVaps category 4)

3 It's a simple(ish) & potentially very commercialisable process.


Cons - the unknowns:
1 Unknown 'strength' and body life-time of non-nicotine alkaloids
- could potentially give unwanted build up and unknown effects.

2 Effectively the carrier (PG/VG) gives the 'slow-release' effect (relative to ciggies),
- with nicotine & presumably with the others as well,
- could potentially lead to uncontrolled dosing - we'd recognise that with nicotine, but the others?
- That's still a problem, even if the non-nic. alkaloids are diluted down with nic.-only juice.

3 Still contains the TSNAs content (how much?),
- although they're not the major cancer-causers delivered by burning tobacco, by all acounts,
- but there's a concentration factor here, swung in favour of which molecules compared to ciggie smoke?

4 Are there other un-determined molcules in the extract, that are present in very small amounts,
- but are strongly biochemically active or generally toxic?
- A proper GC/MS (or other) characterisation may be the only way to tell.
- If so, do these components occur in tobacco smoke, or are they heat labile to that process,
- but get carried intact over during vaping?


Probably several other cons as well, sorry if missed out anything.
I hope the 'vape testing' of this goes very carefully, and there's no bad
experience in store for any guinea-pigs.

Thunderingly good directed chemisty experiment, wonderful extract result,
but I assume a lowest-amount upward approach to testing surely would be somewhat advisable.


Love the thinking about concentration profile of the various active agents during smoking a ciggie,
damn good thinking there, wonder if there's much research been done into that, rather than
'average' smoking effects.

The 'how much stub length do/did you leave' presumably strongly effects the total intake of alkaloids,
I always used to think of that just in terms of discarding the excessively 'tarry' part of the cig.

 

[DVap]

Did some editing to the post with the extract photo, added a photo of how much tobacco must be extracted to obtain the pictured extract, along with a note that 10 times that much tobacco must be smoked to actually get the purified material pictured in the extract. Also went a little further in calling out the radical anti's for the lying hypocrites they are.

 

[IANAN]

Dvap
I don't think you were strong enough, but the forum most likely has language filters. I read through 7 medical journal articles from 1996-2007 (and found more I just didn't read) that indicated that Nicotine alone was not the reason why Nicotine is as addictive as it is when it should not be. Over and over doctors are saying there was no way just Nicotine was that addictive- but yet the ANTIS message, and the pushed public policy, is that it is only the Nicotine and only the Nicotine + lack of willpower. The sanctimonious bags of vinegar and water, designed to be inserted into and used to clean certain areas of the female anatomy, have pushed so hard that the medical profession pushes that either approved NRTs (Which have crap success rate due to lower Nic levels and the missing MOAI-A ) or die is the best way to quit even though the doctors have too know that their patient will "quit" 7 or more times on the Rx he is prescribing. They persecute physician who don't push their agenda publicly. They have used their clout to get junk research put out by govt agencies to create public fear and using that fear to push and create public policies that are absurdly ineffective, unduly burdensome, invasive, and infringe heavily on personal rights. In short they are everything we should fear as a free society.

exogenesis

You missed point 5. on the cons. It is likely that if the FDA wins it's case with SE/NJoy they will take PV's off the market for at least some time if not outright ban them. Meanwhile the FDA will use their newly given power over the tobacco industry to force them to reduce the nicotine levels in cigarettes... Which BT will do at the same time finding a way to either increase MOA-A inhibiting concentrations- leaving the cigs just as addictive or they may not even do that and just do what the ANTI's want and just lower the nicotine causing smokers to smoke more cigarettes (Plenty of data out there that when many people switch to light cigs they just inhale deeper and smoke more product) making them even more addictive to current smokers !!!

Best case scenario is they leave e-cigs on the market... they most likely won't go for Nicotine plus other substances that make Nicotine more addictive. Hence the need to find a relatively harmless alternative herbal substance that could be used with traditional NRTS and/or a home tobacco alkaloid extraction method that could reasonably be performed safely without a lot of outlay in equipment and be performed with a minimal amount of instruction/training.

If that makes sense...

 

[olderthandirt]

...
But heck... Dark Chocolate and Tea may also be somewhat effective, and safe (Not to mention enjoyable with a PV).

I'd like to elucidate a corollary (that I mentioned before).
...But we need to bear in mind one thing: improved efficacy will mean increased addictive potential. It's a trade-off. Something that works well, very well even, to get people off smokes, will be more 'addictive' than something less effective. However, as the addiction is only a problem because of the toxic load of smoking (there's no anti-social behaviour associated with vaping, or mental impairement), this is really a non-issue, but may need to be countered intelligently at some point.
...

Good morning all, catching up.

IANAN, I have always referred to chocolate as "Poor Mans Prozac" The studies and info you are citing are great, thank you.

And if a WTA formulation were to prove more addictive, I for one could care less. The underlying issues so many of us are self-medicating for are better dealt with in this manner, vaping, then with most anything BP has to offer, IMHO of course.

 

[exogenesis]

Wow, there's some strong words in there DVap & IANAN,
I think a lot of vapers feels the same way but can't vocalise it that directly.

I've got that 'fight them on the beaches' feeling again:

Trouble is they've got all the tanks & all we've got is pea-shooters.

I'm not sure the 'win' case for either side gives an immediate straight
forward result, judging by Sun Vaporer's comments on the SE-docket thread.

Especially since there's obviously some serious wrangling going on
behind the scenes - probably we'll end up with a lose-lose situation though

 

[olderthandirt]

Wow, there's some strong words in there DVap & IANAN,
I think a lot of vapers feels the same way but can't vocalise it that directly.
....

Just went back to see your updated post DVap.... aayup, what exo said

 

[Vaporer]

exo, you see the potential I was getting at with my last post as I can see from your list.

Kin wants an exact analog replacement. Nothing wrong there at all.
For people like me that were ultra light smokers (DVap Cat4) reduced amounts of nicotine are fine, but I miss the X Factor.
It surely appears DVap has gotten it out as per our suspicions that other substances were at play.

It would be easy from my stand point on a straight extraction, assuming I've already reduced my nic now I know I don't need it at higher levels. But, the pedulum swings both ways and could set someone up for a higher lever of addiction on either the nic or alkaloid side.

To me, its not all or nothing. I want the same satisfaction Kin does. Because of the extraction(its original tobacco blend) and delivery method one can't over look that a heavier addiction to the alkaloid/s exist and should not be ignored. My reasoning for some may need or work just as well with diff ratios due to alkaloid half life.

Most would like to get by, feel the same, but we all know the less we use the better to obtain the desired effect.
Not everyone is trying to quit. I enjoyed smoking. I'd rather have the satisfaction at the least personal health expense.

Twisteds story is a great example. He knows his brain chemistry is out of balance. Feor whatever reason doesnt matter at the stage we are at. Just the fact its confirmed. He attempted to use higher than normal nic level from eliquid to assist the X Factor symptoms which are weighed heavier in his case. Using one to attempt assist for the symptoms of the other. Reduction from 50mg nic to 36 is a great attempt from him, but surely with much more consequences. He may find the higher X Factor ratio allows him the satisfaction and might reduce his nic levels even further.

Twisted, this is what I meant when I said the more input we have the better. Everyone here isn't super educated and experienced in chemistry, but thier input helps define situations, setting parameters and goals for those who are.
Many reading this thread may not comment for feeling the lack of something.
My main background is more attuned to the hardware with what I'd consider a fair chemistry level. Fair here, calculates out to maybe 10%......lol

It's hard to believe that reading this and a few other threads that 50yrs of testing didnt reveal this to the FDA. It seems appearent they were typically myopic as usual considering only one thing not the whole picture. It surely looks like if they did a whole picture soultion , supporting BP, they screw BT.
This works both ways and they seem to walk the middle ground not assisting in solving anything overall with a high success rate trying to not cut either backers throats.

 

[DVap]

Just went back to see your updated post DVap.... aayup, what exo said

And I've updated it yet again. Every time I think about it, I realize I haven't said enough about these self-appointed guardians of the race.

 

[olderthandirt]

Rrr matey. Ye've the gist o' their gibs now ya have an tha's sure. R'ttle the sabres loud n' long bucko

I don't know, it just came out...