So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[exogenesis]

Kurt & IANAN thanks for all those MAO(I) links,
make for a good clear reading reference set.

Good job DVap took his grandson with him,
otherwise he might have turned into a shaman hermit sitting on
the mountain-top vaping away while calmly contemplating the world.

A while back I tried 'regulating' my nicotine by dripping-on/soaking the cigarette paper
with 36mg/ml juice, looks soggy & slows the burn a bit but not too much.
Strange thing is it didn't seem to boost the nicotine effect much, if at all.
Maybe I'm so strongly tolerent of nic. it'd need more than that.

 

[isande]

Another issue I have been thinking about, and mentioned elsewhere here, is the paper used in US cigs now. It doesn't burn down on its own, supposedly to keep houses from burning down from sleeping smokers. They now generally go out if you don't keep dragging on them.

My point? You smoke a cig from beginning to end on a break. But now the cig doesn't burn down a little between drags. So in the end, more is going into you than before, probably 2-3x as much. Thus the Winston lights I was smoking two years ago deliver less of everything than the ones that can be purchased today. More of everything means more nic to get addicted to, and more nasties to die from.

If you have to regulate the amount of nic in the cigarette, and can't jack it up due to the FDA, this is a way around that...just spin it in terms of safety, and everyone says good job!! But this explains why quitting was so important to me this fall...cigs were making me feel sick and toxic, and now I know why.

In terms of this thread, this has implications on the actual amounts we are trying to simulate. Have blood test been done since the paper change? Or am I just making something up here?

Not a chemist, but I have a medical background. That said...

What you're saying does make sense. More drags, less "burndown" between drags = more total smoke inhaled... as you say, possibly quite a lot more, depending on your own habits and the brand you smoked. For example, Pall Mall is very slow burning and even before the fire safety measures would not burn down much at all between drags. I personally noticed a much larger difference in "faster-burning" brands (Marlboro, for example).

That said, my own experience was that I smoked fewer total cigarettes when smoking a slow-burning brand or the newer "fire safe" cigarettes. I did smoke them more intensely (although I still had to relight sometimes) but I suspect I was self-regulating nicotine levels by simply smoking fewer.

But that's just me, and I was very much a chain-smoker. Pre-paper change, I'd go through perhaps four packs (!!) of Marlboros in a day. About two packs of Pall Malls but then they do have a considerably higher nic level (at least in the Light 100s, which is what I've smoked for ages).

I never experienced feeling "sick and toxic" from smoking but there were times I would think "That's enough, then" and put out the cigarette at the halfway point. More like feeling full after a meal than anything. But again, I was a chain smoker and my nicotine tolerance is astronomical.

As for the FDA regulating nicotine levels... I honestly think that for most, this is a step in the wrong direction. Regulating tar levels would make a lot more sense. I am firmly of the belief (with all other things being equal - tar, TSNAs, etc.) that higher nicotine is BETTER overall in terms of safety. From what I have observed (myself and others), the more nicotine you get, the less you will use your tobacco/non-tobacco nicotine-containing product of choice. Therefore you will experience *fewer* health risks in total, since nicotine itself is not especially harmful.

--K

 

[frankie1]

Hey OTD...I'm doing OK. Don't have heart study results, but something is going on...not feeling well. I am just maintaining right now until I get a handle on things.

Just trying to keep up with these guys.....Mission Impossible! LOL

 

[olderthandirt]

Another issue I have been thinking about, and mentioned elsewhere here, is the paper used in US cigs now.
...Have blood test been done since the paper change? Or am I just making something up here?

I don't think your making things up at all Kurt. More like thinking outside the analog box.
It wouldn't surprise me in the the least if every thing pondered on, speculated on and analyzed and measured through out this thread and any and all implications of said, aren't common knowledge to BT. It's nice to have a few brains on "our" side any way!

Hey OTD...I'm doing OK. Don't have heart study results, but something is going on...not feeling well. I am just maintaining right now until I get a handle on things...

Maintaining is good!! Been hitting the 48 myself a bit more the last couple of days but maintaining is good.

 

[Vaporer]

exo,
Thats what I tried was upping my nic level and still there was something missing. I didnt vape any more or any less. Although I didnt notice much diff at all when dropping to 12 from test blending than the 18-24mg that was keeping me happy, kinda.

As with Dvaps noticing the effects more pronounced than one would think, I believe the inhibitors play a much bigger part than most realized, until now.

I notice most of the group here never discusses flavors other than tobacco, kinda unspoken, so maybe the ones that are constantly vaping many flavors are being distracted due to the new flavor pleasures. Tough call. The guy that want to vape bacon flavor does have me a little concerned as well as that one chinese dish mentioned.

frankie,
Glad you are hanging on.........its all one can do. Having understandng friends helps alot.
I did the same as you by going to low tar, then smoking the crap out of them. Many last puffs were a melted filter end and the fire had fallen off. If not, that last puff was nasty.

From DVaps reporting we may be very well getting the MAOI's in pretty quickly. If you try the dissovables and vape you can hit you nic limit pretty darn quick. snus is just diff.
Seems to tak abt 10-15min and vape and the would isnt a bad place with me looking for that lost element.

The fire ......ent crap is the latest of thier "told" additives. Who knows what its doing. You're supposed to smoke and burn an analog and they put more stuff in now to keep it from doing that. Geeesh.........next you will have to keep a lighter on it to puff.
This makes me feel better in a way since I quit. One less hassle.
Anyone who hasnt watched the analog "not burn" in an ashtray on YouTube ...its funny. It wont stay lit. I remember if you got on the phine for 5 min you were always putting out a stinky .... that had a continious ash.

 

[Kurt]

Thanks for your take on things, Isande! Thing is, with me smoking was more often about having a cigarette than titrating a craving. If I went three hours without a smoke, I would be trying to kill the cravings, for sure. But most of the time it would be me working, intensely writing, deriving, or conversing, and by God I needed a smoke. Cigarettes were more of a reward for intense working than a removal of withdrawals. Having enough nic in me to kill the nerve pain was sort of my baseline usage, but beyond that it was about thinking and self-reward, as I now look back on it with a better perspective.

Sometimes I would smoke only a half, and that was enough, but most of the time it was "I'm going to have a cigarette", rather than "I'm going to smoke just enough to kill the cravings". I think this thinking applies to a good % of the smokers. Afterall, unless you have an ashtray to deposit the half-smoked ...., it is too stinky to carry around, and putting it back in the cig box just fouls the others. Better to smoke it and be done with it.

OTD, I agree. I think we are thinking through the reinventing of the wheel that BT thought through long ago. But then, I am the only one I know in my smoking circle that thought of the paper thing.

As for feeling toxic, I think Winstons do that a little anyway, so the paper just sent it over the edge for me.

 

[olderthandirt]

...
I notice most of the group here never discusses flavors other than tobacco, kinda unspoken, so maybe the ones that are constantly vaping many flavors are being distracted due to the new flavor pleasures. Tough call. The guy that want to vape bacon flavor does have me a little concerned as well as that one chinese dish mentioned.
...
The fire ......ent crap is the latest of thier "told" additives. Who knows what its doing. You're supposed to smoke and burn an analog and they put more stuff in now to keep it from doing that. Geeesh.........next you will have to keep a lighter on it to puff.
This makes me feel better in a way since I quit. One less hassle.
Anyone who hasnt watched the analog "not burn" in an ashtray on YouTube ...its funny. It wont stay lit. I remember if you got on the phine for 5 min you were always putting out a stinky .... that had a continious ash.

Well Vaporer, my mainstays are either unflavored or coffee. More unflavored than anything else. I picked up a couple of 306 attys recently. With the exposed bridge and just dipping they do allow me to do different flavors occasionally. Can switch flavors quickly.

But for the nic maintenance, it's either 36mg or 48mg unflavored. Since using snus I'm able to play with different flavors at leisure, as a treat.

Those darn slow burning papers though. Several years ago when I went to RYO it seemed as though analogs that I rolled were the ones that went out if unattended. Whenever it was that the ......ent chemicals were added to the papers I swear my rollups started to burn longer before going out!

Along with using the snus, I've thought about seeing what reducing my "e-nic" levels again would be like. With the snus pulling as much of the load as it appears to be one would think there would be no problem. But the amount of well, relief, I feel right now as a result of several long hits of 48mg a few minutes ago along with a fresh 8mg portion, I don't know...

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I notice most of the group here never discusses flavors other than tobacco, kinda unspoken, so maybe the ones that are constantly vaping many flavors are being distracted due to the new flavor pleasures. Tough call. .

Funny you bring this up, the last few days this has been my impression. Since my last stint in rehab and the turning point in my life, I'm constantly in a state of self-analyis. You know, how did it make me feel and why, what motivates me, why do I do what I do...that sort of thing. (Nutty, huh?) One of the things I've noticed about vaping is that at any given mg, the taste of the liquid does factor in to how much I vape at a given time. If I vape, say, 48mg and no flavor added I'm good after 6 drops (maybe that's why my kids call me a drip). If I am using a flavor I enjoy at 48mg I'll almost always go for 12 drops before I good. Psychological, maybe, but in relating to smoking analogs, if I was doing something I enjoyed I could almost chain smoke. Both of these behaviors I credit to the dopemine/seratonin (spell check, here) stimulation. Just musing.

 

[olderthandirt]

Oh no

I'm hearing Nicholas Cage now also!

This is the kind of musing that the brighter minds feed on Twisted.

Now if you'll excuse me I think I'll go plug Night Rider into the DVD and some more 48 into me

 

[DVap]

OTD, I agree. I think we are thinking through the reinventing of the wheel that BT thought through long ago. But then, I am the only one I know in my smoking circle that thought of the paper thing.

BT's probably been through all of this, but it makes sense to assume that since their product contains the whole alkaloid spread, and everyone was only hammering them for nicotine, that BT would play along. Better for the naysayers to be pounding on one scapegoat chemical than a dozen, right?

If I were BT, and the naive forces were pushing me to keep lowering the nicotine content of analogs, I'd be laughing all the way to the bank, assured in the knowledge that smokers are experts at nicotine self-titration.

BT's brilliant realization was that they didn't have to look like creeps by fighting against the system, but instead they could make a fortune by playing the system. After all, the committee nature of tobacco policy assures the old saying, "All of us together are dumber than each of us separately."

 

[DVap]

I should mention.. running off to the mountains for a day with the boy does not suggest some alkaloid-induced ascent into zen-like hippy tranquility.

I've done a good 4,000 miles on foot up there and I've spent a few hundred nights up there as well... the mountains are a second home home to me . I've had the boy doing the same since he was 3. It was business as usual for us!

The PV actually remained in the car.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Oh no

I'm hearing Nicholas Cage now also!

This is the kind of musing that the brighter minds feed on Twisted.

Now if you'll excuse me I think I'll go plug Night Rider into the DVD and some more 48 into me

Nick's nose is bigger....and feet....and probably , never mind. Anyway, I've thought alot about this in the past week, maybe. You know, looking at patterns and so forth, and wanted to bring it up earlier, but didn't know how to relate it. Hey, Vaporer pushed the button, not me. I think it fits in pretty well with the self-medicating things people have brought up. Also, we seem to be safe from head doctors around here so I said "Why not?". Let the feeding begin.

 

[Vaporer]

Actually, those answers don't surprize me.
The group is still focused on just a couple of flavors or non flavors.
Nothing like the groups that are constantly bouncing from one flavor to another.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[kinabaloo]

As for the FDA regulating nicotine levels... I honestly think that for most, this is a step in the wrong direction. Regulating tar levels would make a lot more sense. I am firmly of the belief (with all other things being equal - tar, TSNAs, etc.) that higher nicotine is BETTER overall in terms of safety. From what I have observed (myself and others), the more nicotine you get, the less you will use your tobacco/non-tobacco nicotine-containing product of choice. Therefore you will experience *fewer* health risks in total, since nicotine itself is not especially harmful.

--K

Agreed. It's only logical. This would hold true even with e-liquid - though the toxin level is far lower, it makes sense to make higher nic available, and WTA too.

DVap - only a little joking, of course. The reported lower consumption both shows that WTA works, and will be even safer than normal e-liquid, in all likelihood.

 

[kinabaloo]

Btw, last month wrote this long article in the forums here about nicotine, MAOIs, absorption, etc., that predates DVap's extraction of WTA.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...bsorption-addictiveness-maois.html#post683086

Lots of links in there.

 

[olderthandirt]

Actually, those answers don't surprize me.
The group is still focused on just a couple of flavors or non flavors.
Nothing like the groups that are constantly bouncing from one flavor to another.
Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Absolutely! Like I said, now when I do different flavors I'm actually able to enjoy them! Prior to the snus boost I did chase after flavors for awhile thinking that might be the missing factor. So much time spent with all that was needed to change flavors with respect to carts and attys and... Seeing Jim Davis comment that unflavored was his usual I tried it and in short order the whole concept of simplicity and addiction maintenance took hold. My vaping epiphany so to say.

Just typing this out I better appreciate your point Vaporer.

Well DVap, I'm jealous of you and your mountain treks. Skyline Trail through Oregon ate quite a bit of my boot leather at one time. Too many analogs and too many years on my duff to do that anymore. Short walks only now and if there's much altitude change on those walks you know the pace is going to be a leisurely!

 

[olderthandirt]

Btw, last month wrote this long article about nicotine, MAOIs, absorption, etc., that predates DVap's extraction of WTA.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...bsorption-addictiveness-maois.html#post683086

Lots of links in there.

Given the course this thread has taken that post is an excellent refresher Kin.

 

[kinabaloo]

Given the course this thread has taken that post is an excellent refresher Kin.

Thanks!

I'll need to update it soon I expect.

Just need to say again that reducing the nic level (or prohibiting WTA) would be such a STUPID thing to do. The thought is really disturbing. It is literally nonsense!

 

[IANAN]

But let's not gum up this thread with that...although it is interesting that tricyclics, like some MAOI's, are used for fundamental nerve pain treatment, so maybe it is ALL related to our blessed and holy WTA, hallowed be thy name...*sound of choir*.

This was the point;

Research suggests that, when smokers wish to achieve a stimulating effect, they take short quick puffs, which produce a low level of blood nicotine.[14] This stimulates nerve transmission. When they wish to relax, they take deep puffs, which produce a high level of blood nicotine, which depresses the passage of nerve impulses, producing a mild sedative effect. At low doses, nicotine potently enhances the actions of norepinephrine and dopamine in the brain, causing a drug effect typical of those of psychostimulants. At higher doses, nicotine enhances the effect of serotonin and opiate activity, producing a calming, pain-killing effect. Nicotine is unique in comparison to most drugs, as its profile changes from stimulant to sedative/pain killer in increasing dosages and use.

NRTs by design have limited nicotine in them, so we don't become addicted to them, which means the levels may never cross over to sedative. We may also be experiencing that with vaporizers . This may also be why the Patch + the gum(Or lozenge) at the same time are showing the most promising NRT quit rate....

This is especially true if there is a synergistic effect with the beta-carboline or even worse if it is potentiating a lower threshold over to sedative... Then again it could be working the other way keeping the nicotine as a stimulant for longer periods or just enhancing the stimulant period. This is why I found it odd that in the MOAI thread many people were suggesting Valerien, which is used as a sedative and sleep aid.

With the PV inhaling harder doesn't really result in a higher dose of nicotine. Dosing at high levels with the PV may never give the low stimulating effects... causing the mental desert feeling as they aren't getting the stimulant effect. Counting numbers of mouthfuls may be useful. I think the extra 5 minutes, and the suspected missing beta-carboline interaction, throws some people off so they may take more mouthfuls of a stronger fluid thus pushing the threshold over to sedation.... Using another stimulant (Caffeine perse- nothing wrong with a good cup of joe or strong tea) and fewer puffs at higher levels may be the ticket out of the mental desert feeling. A square or two of dark chocolate with a vape style with more mouthfuls when we are feeling stressed or anxious for the other end. Consuming both foodstuffs have other highly desirable health benefits.

But anyhow on the Smoker's Paradox;

Before physicians prescribe NRT or other smoking cessation , or heck even the user themselves should do this evaluation, they need to ask or evaluate, among other things, if the patient;

Suffer(ed)s from Allergic Asthma (May explain why when you quit some users experience coughs that never go away)

Suffered in the past from ADHD or exhibits symptoms of ADHD

Suffer(ed)s from Schizoid personality disorder or exhibits symptoms of a mild case of schizophrenia.

-If they do then the physician/individual may be removing the treatment by not smoking... Treatment options for those aliments should be discussed in those cases. All three aliments would require long term treatment and high doses of Nicotine and beta-carboline should be studied as an option.

 

[Vaporer]

OTD, when I started I was like a superball gathering every flavor I could. It took a while to figure out the newness was ok, didnt last long as something I'd like to constant vape.
All the tobacco flavors seem to be fine. Old brain imprints kicking in? Dont know.
The newness would keep a person distracted somewhat till it clamed dow and then you go looking.....I guess cause something is missing.

It was just an observation, but one I had shared in personally and see so many grabbing 6-10 flavors at a time. I guess thier wiring could be that that is what satisfies them or thier need. The constant newness. I do see alot of classifieds

Just like the snus's, all seem to work, but for me its ice or mint...more like the menthol in between I miss? My guess is yes.

All this research seems to indicate replacing our addictions with a suitable subtitute is the way to go as long as the brain chemistry is happy.

Boy, that sounded stupid....lol