So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

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Vaporer

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I uses Absolutes a lot and they have no effect other than for a rough tobacco flavor.
I wanted to be sure of in a ban situation I had something that at least tasted like tobacco. Ok...it does, but a raw tobacco flavor thats hard to describe and thier is really nothing more to it. Its very low in nic to 0 in content.

Absolutes are usually green, since they are made from all the unused portion of the tobacco plant. The dregs if you will before its ever sun dried, flu cured or barn hung fermemnted for the development of flavor.

Edit: Most use absolutes are 2 drops in 10ml, mixed, filtered and then a drop or 2 per ml in an eliquid batch. Its that strong of a flavor. Just a little to much and it tastes like an ashtray and diluting is the only way to fix it.
 
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Vaporer

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The 30 day number seems to be a milestone and for many a tripping point.

Lets consider something:
Cannibis can be detected in the urine for 30days after usage of a daily user. It's fat soluble and as the fat is broken down, it's excreted in the urine.
Analog smokers have the same daily use trait. What if there are constituients, WTA or something that is fat soluble, really potent on the brain chemistry that finally leaves at the 30 day mark just like THC? The shakey , itch you can't scratch thing?

It would be like being on an anti-depressant or mood altering substance for a long time period and suddenly being thrown into withdrawl.

Thoughts?
 

Elf

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I definitely agree with the "something missing" being a delayed effect from my own observation. From my own experience it started around the 1 month mark, and progressively got worse.

on another interesting (possibly related?) note,

I worked a while back for a biomedical company that was developing treatment protocols for alcohol and methamphetamine users. Their theory was that the limbic system of the brain was responsible for the cravings, and they were developing drug treatment protocols to attempt to "reset" how the limbic system craved the substances (my words, not theirs). Many noted that after going through the treatment, their craving was diminished or lost entirely.

The interesting (or perhaps relevant?) part is that the treatment for .... required an additional followup treatment at the 3 week mark. This was because it was noticed that at about this time, past users would get real bad cravings again.

Perhaps there could be a loose connection here, or perhaps not.
In any case, I thought it would be worth mentioning.
 

Kurt

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Been working too hard to keep up for the last couple of days here in this fine thread. Anybody here taken a snus and vaped it like TropicalBob? He soaked it in a spoonful of PG, then took the whole thing and shoved it in a 901 cart (I think). I would think VG might be good too, not so much for the solubilities of the alkaloids, but the higher temp would more likely vaporize them out of the leaf material. If people have found satisfaction from this, I could see having a dedicated cart/atty for my 510 that I just screw in to the batt/PT when I need a full-spectrum hit. PG would keep things from growing in it for a bit.

Never used chew before, not fond of the spitting thing or the idea of holding tobacco in my cheek. But under all this extra work-stress 1 or 2 analogs a day are unfortunately necessary for me. Which is very very good compared to the 1+ pack a day before PV-day1.
 

Vaporer

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Kurt,
snus cut my vaping by abt 1/2. Fills the void, not as well as WTA, but still......
CAMEL SNUS is diff. TB uses the caps to diif it from Swedish snus. The General Mini Mint White Portion is really very good. The mini potrions are dry and white means no tobacco juice was added back in. So, they are really dry. Fits well above my canine.
I made some snus juice, there are a couple recipies out there, Havent had time to do a good vape evaluation on them. They do have some flavor, the rest, not enouh time with it.
TB's method on youtube is using an 801 cart. Much bigger. Some lady has a warming method with so much PG/VG and x # of packets. Seems the stronger mg portions work the best for juice. Expected and i had none.
Placing an order tonight.

Hope that helps some.
 

Kurt

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Kurt,
snus cut my vaping by abt 1/2. Fills the void, not as well as WTA, but still......
CAMEL SNUS is diff. TB uses the caps to diif it from Swedish snus. The General Mini Mint White Portion is really very good. The mini potrions are dry and white means no tobacco juice was added back in. So, they are really dry. Fits well above my canine.
I made some snus juice, there are a couple recipies out there, Havent had time to do a good vape evaluation on them. They do have some flavor, the rest, not enouh time with it.
TB's method on youtube is using an 801 cart. Much bigger. Some lady has a warming method with so much PG/VG and x # of packets. Seems the stronger mg portions work the best for juice. Expected and i had none.
Placing an order tonight.

Hope that helps some.

Thanks for the info, Vaporer! I will probably get some when time permits and try some experiments. I'm just not a fan of US processed tobacco in general. The swedish seemed to be really pure and unprocessed. I like the idea of the warm PG/VG recipe. I'll search for it.
 

TropicalBob

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First, Kin, thanks for taking the time to find that TBob did indeed proffer the "something missing" notion in a thread more than a year ago. And I got clobbered for not being a true believer and evangelist for the First Church of E-Smoking.

Note on e-smoking soaked snus: I still like it. I do use the 801 cart and now use mostly tasteless Wine&Dine snus that I soak in Bickford Kahlua flavoring (just PG and flavor). Most other snus portions are too large for small carts like the 901 or 510. The General Mini Mint is excellent, though, and comes with its own flavor. I soak it in VG.

In terms of satisfaction in replacing my 30-a-day cig habit that I ditched more than two years ago: Snus, Stonewall Java dissolvables, pipe, e-cigs. In that order. The first three all are tobacco based. E-cigs, of course, offer just nicotine -- and something is missing that the other three alternatives contain.
 

IANAN

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(Cat's Claw) Day three;

1. Desire to smoke- Still reduced. Cravings seem even less strong than on day two. Greatest desire to smoke is still in morning. Typical strong urge seems reduced. Mostly feel the urge to smoke instead of vape when I think about, or strongest, when I go outside, touch a pack of cigarettes, or touch a lighter. Urge with vape in these instances reduced.

2. Mental Awareness state (Mental Fog)- No loss of volition in the morning.

3. Anxiety (Relaxed state) and restlessness- Slept soundly the night before (7.5 hours of sleep). Period of excess energy similar to caffeine buzz, in the morning reduced but still feel energetic and alert in the morning. Feel highly energetic and alert though, could be my body is acclimating to new caffeine dose. Oddly enough evening coffee was substituted with a cappuccino and tense feelings subsided quicker (Could be more concentrated coffee is more effective). In general not as much anxiety. General feeling of well-being noted earlier in the day. Still feeling that slight buzzed feeling right after vaping or even smoking.

4. Perceived GI (Gastro-intestinal) effects including effects on bowl movements- More frequent than normal.

5. Effectiveness of and frequency of vaping sessions to reduce cravings- Especially effective when drinking coffee or eating chocolate prior to or during the session.

6. Number of traditional cigarettes consumed (If any)- 7
 

exogenesis

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Not being negative but:
was just wondering again about what's in the WTA extract,
(i.e. not just a 'few' X-factors, but a load of other chemicals as well)

'Major' tobacco alkaloids:
1 nicotine (l- only)
2 nornicotine (l- & d-)
3 myosmine
4 nicotyrine
5 anabasine
6 anatabine
7 2,3-dipyridyl
8 N-methyl-anabasine
9 N-methyl-anatabine

Minor tobacco alkaloids as biomarkers for tobacco use: comparison of users of cigarettes, smokeless tobacco, cigars, and pipes. -- Jacob et al. 89 (5): 731 -- American Journal of Public Health
Alkaloid levels in commercial tobacco products, in milligrams per gram:
nicotine, 6.5 to 17.5
nornicotine, 0.14 to 0.66
anabasine, 0.008 to 0.030
anatabine, 0.065 to 0.27
Measurable concentrations of all alkaloids were excreted in the urine of most
subjects smoking cigarettes, cigars, and pipes and using smokeless tobacco.
Correlations between nicotine intake and alkaloid concentrations were good to excellent.

And other bases, there's a huge range of nitrogen containing
compounds in tobacco (i.e. not just in the smoke), which would end
up in the WTA (?)
300+ pyridines compounds, (and 160+ alkaloids),
ridiculously long list of tobacco base-compounds in this table:
The Chemical Components of Tobacco ... - Google Books
e.g. nicotimine, nicoteine, nicotelline, nicotoine,,trimethylamine,
piperidine, pyrrolidine, N-methyl-pyrrolidine....

Also is there a 'slight problem' for the beta-carbolines being useful as
MAOI's in vaping, they are solids with fairly high melting points:
harmine 260'C, harmaline 232'C, harmane melting point 236'C,
and apparently can mostly decompose before reaching boiling point,
c.f. nicotine (liquid) boiling point 245'C, but starts to 'evaporate' at lower temp.
Although it is stated they are present in cigarette smoke (somehow), but how much?
 

rickghouse

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'Major' tobacco alkaloids:
1 nicotine (l- only)
2 nornicotine (l- & d-)
3 myosmine
4 nicotyrine
5 anabasine
6 anatabine
7 2,3-dipyridyl
8 N-methyl-anabasine
9 N-methyl-anatabine

Thanks, Exogenesis!

My best friend is a homeopathic practitioner, and she has agreed (no promises) to try to get this package put together (not the 300+ pyridines compounds and 160+ alkaloids, just the list above).

I'm excited about the possibilities!

Rick.
 
I pointed out before that 1) most alkaloids are solids at room temps with high BPs; and 2) most will at least partially decompose rather than become a gas (or even a liquid).

Though oxidation is likely involved too, even nicotine (a liquid at room temps) is mostly lost in the atty.

I also pointed out that while these considerations suggest looking to misting rather than vaporisation as a far more efficient delivery method, the profile of alkaloids would be very different without the heat mediated filtering that applies with heater coils and analogs.

For now I am sticking with beta carbolines as the key players, but that is an hypothesis designed to facilitate experiment and debate.

I have previously prposed that a certain level of misting occurs in attys as vaporisation pressures churn and bubble out a spray of fairly fine neat liquid droplets (think salty sea spray through mechanical churning).*

I have been giving a lot of thought to whether WTA or designed e-liquid with selected alkaloids would be best. My current thoughts are: while there is more risk with WTA, I don't see it as high relative to smoking or even snus use. Increased knowledge will lead to redesigned formulas being the better option; but there will always be the chance of missing some subtleties in flavor, hit and phisiological effect. However, 2 or 3 well chosen other alkaloids added to nicotine might provide an e-liquid closer to WTA than existing e-liquids. We are just at the beginning of this jurney of discovery and I can see it running for some time.

Perhaps a curry analogy: basic must have ingredients for curry are cumin, chilli, ginger; but there is a large variety of minors that provide depth: coriander seed, bay leaf,star anise, black pepper, papriks, cardamon, ...

~~~

* It would be a good idea to think how this activity could be enhanced by changing the atty design. Indeed, I have thought about using distilled water as the vaporisation agent and using the generated steam (the pressure of phase change) to power a misting of the e-liquid.

Some might remember some videaos of experiments I did months ago with atty coils heated outside the atty casing; high speed close up filming of the bubblin of the e-liquid might be able to show this effect taking place.

In a kettle, say, this effect would be minimal because the bubble size is large because of the containing pressure of the liquid. In an atty, however, the volume of liquid is very tiny and this effect (the 'kina effect' if it doesn't yet have a name) could well be very significant (perhaps 10%, 20%, or more of the emitted total). The expanding gas at the heated surface forces drplets of liquid into the air.

The boiling of tiny volumes of liquid like this is very unusual and might well have been little studies so far. At this scale, the misting effect, normally trivial, could well be significant, with this being a new are of science. The key conditions being tiny liquid volumes (and hence tiny liquid pressures leading to very small gas bubbles), fast heating. A variety of science in involved: surface and colloid behaviour, thermodynamics, etc.

A very primitive experiment that could somewhat approximate these conditions would be to spray a salt solution through a zozzle onto a pre-heated hot-plate and check for saltiness in the surrounding air.

~~

In smoking the non-volatile alkaloids are carried on smoke particles.
 
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IANAN

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Also is there a 'slight problem' for the beta-carbolines being useful as
MAOI's in vaping, they are solids with fairly high melting points:
harmine 260'C, harmaline 232'C, harmane melting point 236'C,
and apparently can mostly decompose before reaching boiling point,
c.f. nicotine (liquid) boiling point 245'C, but starts to 'evaporate' at lower temp.
Although it is stated they are present in cigarette smoke (somehow), but how much?

Rick;

Relative exposure to beta-carbolines norharman and... [Food Addit Contam. 2004] - PubMed result
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15036003?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_SingleItemSupl.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

You want

Exposure via tobacco smoke depends on smoking habits and type of cigarettes but can be estimated to 1.1 microg/kg bw for norharman and 0.6 microg/kg bw for harman per package of cigarettes smoked.

Acetaldehyde is also in smoke 30-1400 ug (Micrograms)
 

DVap

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Exposure via tobacco smoke depends on smoking habits and type of cigarettes but can be estimated to 1.1 microg/kg bw for norharman and 0.6 microg/kg bw for harman per package of cigarettes smoked.
Acetaldehyde is also in smoke 30-1400 ug (Micrograms)

Adding the two together, whole body exposure would be 85 ng/analog or 1.7 ug/pack.

They'd have to be potent little MAOI's...
 

frankie1

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I also started having problems at about the 1 month mark! I have been unable to quit smoking, but had reduced my intake (30-40 day, lights) to 2-5 day. At about the one month mark, I had heart palpitations, slight nausea/dizziness, urgent bowel, and jerking of hands, trembling legs. The episode lasted about 15 minutes and ended when I was warm (shower preparing to go to ER and subsequently blanket around shoulders even though I am in Florida and it was in September) and I SMOKED A CIGARETTE! I returned to normal. Subsequent heart study is, so far, showing no problems and all other tests have remained normal...I am healthy as far as three doctors can ascertain. My Internist even said on visit after first episode that it could be withdrawal from tobacco. Subsequent episodes seem to occur when smoking is severely curtailed but I seem to be OK, with only minor uncomfortable feelings, when smoking is at about 8 cigs per day. I have tried increasing nic levels but not only does it not seem to help, it leaves me a bit niccy (new word? No hiccups, just achy and feeling ill).

I don't have any input into the studies being done other than to thank all of you from the very bottom of my heart and soul for trying to find the answer. Back to lurking now.
 

Kurt

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Thanks, Exogenesis!

My best friend is a homeopathic practitioner, and she has agreed (no promises) to try to get this package put together (not the 300+ pyridines compounds and 160+ alkaloids, just the list above).

I'm excited about the possibilities!

Rick.

She's going to buy these compounds? And then make what, 36x dilution onto sugar spheres? Sorry, I'm not seeing this happening homeopathically, but then there is likely info not being stated. Is the idea to make remedies that make the system THINK the alkaloids are present, when in fact they are diluted to the point of hardly being there? I'm not doubting the potency of homeopathic remedies, as I have experienced it, even though I don't understand it at all. I'm just wondering what the homeopathic theory would be for an alkaloid mix like this. Upregulated receptors looking for compounds that are not there is a tough thing to effectively treat without providing the necessary compound, or going through withdrawals.
 

Vaporer

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Ok, I think it's time to play devils advocate.

DVap's WTA, to me, proves the what is missing part is there. The feeling it produces and all the well being that goes with it.
Here comes the hammer.......
What if that is the same substance is responsible for a major part of the addiction to analogs? The craving residual that nicotine alone misses?
We then are recreating the addiction in another but somewhat safer form.
That's a point that shouldn't be ignored here.

It's just as possible to find the "feeling' compound and it just produces the satisfaction with no additional craving.
But as with many other addictive substances, soon the feeling isn't the improtant part anymore, the craving to have it is. That may not be the case here as well as it might be.

I guess it comes down to " be careful what you ask for, you just might get it".

Also, I'm sure many are dying to ask so I will answer for you. No, I'm not having severe after WTA cravings, but it was only a 2-3 day test. A proof of validity, not many years of daily usage.
 

olderthandirt

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...Also, I'm sure many are dying to ask so I will answer for you. No, I'm not having severe after WTA cravings, but it was only a 2-3 day test. A proof of validity, not many years of daily usage.

Ah, and a mind reader too. Thought had crossed my mind V... :)

But you have returned to the routine you were comfortable with prior to trying the WTA correct?
 

Vaporer

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Correct, but I did feel the need to make the statement due to the fact that WTA actually works.

The need to isolate the exact component/s would be the logical next succession of tests required of individual substances present. It may be attributed to one or a combination of a few. A very consuming process.

I don't think it's fair to expect DVap to even attempt this as its could be very lenghty, costly and time consuming.
The original point of the thread has been met and beyond already.

Mind reader too?......I think not, just very analytical by nature, with a touch a reality thrown in.
 
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Ok, I think it's time to play devils advocate.

DVap's WTA, to me, proves the what is missing part is there. The feeling it produces and all the well being that goes with it.
Here comes the hammer.......
What if that is the same substance is responsible for a major part of the addiction to analogs? The craving residual that nicotine alone misses?
We then are recreating the addiction in another but somewhat safer form.
That's a point that shouldn't be ignored here.

I said before that this will be true. And it doesn't matter as we are already 'addicted'. The point is, with WTA it is far safer. Addiction is harmful only in sofar as the thing addicted to is harmful.
 
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frankie1

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I have a friend who had a stroke. Prior to the stroke, she was a long term smoker and has no intention of quitting. She never smoked again after the stroke and has no desire to do so. There is some attention being given to this phenomena.....:

Area in Brain Key to Quitting Smoking?

I wonder if anyone here knows if there is a connection to this area of the brain the the alkaloids you are looking at.
 
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