So - are we getting it or are we not - nicotine

[a2dcovert]

The analog plug soaked with 24 mg nic/pg has promise.

I can't put up a long post on this ridiculous netbook keyboard without screwing it up and ending up ...... off, so I'll have to wait till I get back home in a day or two.

One thing I might say before I hit the wrong key and close down my browser is this: Get hold of a pack of good, strong additive free analogs. Get hold of a pack of Natural American Spirit smokes.

I'll run the numbers for y'all when I get back.

Ok DVap,

I already have about 4 pounds of premium RYO still fresh in the bags. Be waiting on some insite.

I'll wait on DVap to get back, but the last thing he said was the things we use are polar.
I'd take that as the alkaloids arent coming out with a soak of PG,VG,PGA, or water.
I can see getting the nic and flavor, even though my test failed miserably. All I had was the absolute cheapest tobacco stuff possible. I'm not sure there is real tobacco in it!

Might be a large part of the spectrum will come out. More so than thinking alkaloids as specific. Where he went straight for them.

A little bit of it "all" would be better than plain PG/VG and snus in the event of a ban.

That was hopeful news from DVap. I'm going to see if there is anything to this.

Hello Mister and ladyraj.

 

[Vaporer]

I'm not trying to whizz on any ones cereal with what I said. I just listen very carefully to what DVap has said and his reasons for caution. I've seen the numbers he's posted and quantified them for reasonable use.
Maybe he had that great bright light from a honeymoon recovery.

My guess is there will be an extraction method he's gonna post if he said get the tobacco ready. Notice he said American Spirit? <---Additive free. How do cigars stack up with additives? The one TB mentioned is triple fermented tobacco. Bet it's flavorful.
My next guess is a PGA soak (possibly 2-3) and reduction then added to PG/VG for vaping. It will all be there, but no concentration like what the testers got. Might have to vape 4-6ml a day of it.

Anyone else wanna polish your crystal ball?

 

[a2dcovert]

My crystal ball ran off after the last election. I hope it comes back.

 

[Vaporer]

Probably had a "Nobel Pieces" prize to sweep up from not giving you any answers.

 

[TropicalBob]

Here's kinda my bottom line: I want satisfaction first. I got that with DVap's WTA liquid in a way I did not with just high-nicotine liquid. I do NOT want to soak loose stuff and get a black, stinky mess. I do not want to turn my kitchen into a wife-screaming laboratory. I want a packaged form of whole tobacco that is the right size to fit into an empty cart.

I can control nicotine by soaking in liquid we all use now.

I smoked 30 cigarettes a day for 50 years. I am not now going to become paranoid about additives. A key for American Spirit versus Capri is the diameter of the tube. I need a ring measure of 20 or less, probably 17-19. Otherwise, the thing won't fit in our carts (a problem I had with strong, regular snus portions).

I chose Swisher Sweets because it is the number one seller in all little cigar categories, including grocery stores, etc. It also tastes good. If this works, I might go back to Dean's 'Lil' Cigars, since they have all desirable flavors - chocolate, vanilla, rum, cherry, peach, etc. The taste does transfer from snus, so it should from a cigar piece turned into vapor.

I would strongly prefer a tobacco wrapper to a paper one. I have a person inside the cigar industry trying to find me a little cigar that meets all my specs.

I'll make sure to try American Spirit, probably the one with perique, since I'm a pipe puffer.

Thumbs up, Ad2. Let us know how it works out for you.

 

[olderthandirt]

Morning all!
TV brought this up a couple of days ago, Totally Wicked is putting together a structured trial on the efficacy of PV's. Today Pillbox posted an outline of the trials intended methodology:
Preparation For a Smoking Cessation Trial In association With "UEL"

I'm impressed...

 

[Vaporer]

TBob, do you really think the liquid we have now will survive Judge Leons decision?
DVap has numbers posted that show if we got 50% nic from a soak it would be very weak. If the WTA ratio is the same , it will be weak too. So, to feel much besides flavor, I dont see how you will get beyond reducing for concentrtion. Or vape your guts out.
DVap might surprize us though !

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

TBob, do you really think the liquid we have now will survive Judge Leons decision?
DVap has numbers posted that show if we got 50% nic from a soak it would be very weak. If the WTA ratio is the same , it will be weak too. So, to feel much besides flavor, I dont see how you will get beyond reducing for concentrtion. Or vape your guts out.
DVap might surprize us though !

All points of concern for me, also, V. But, then, I don't understand alot . TBob's goal is the same as mine as far as even if it has some nasties in it, heck, I was doing much worse before. But, it's hard for me to imagine that an unconcentrated soak would produce much in the way of usable WTA. But what do I know? I do feel that, in the event of a ban on nic liquids, I can survive withdrawl, but the alkaloids I need and will always need. Fingers and toes are crossed and knotted ,

 

[TropicalBob]

Vaporer, I have no way of knowing, other than personal feelings. That was the trouble with all the old "soak/cook" methods using loose tobacco. I "felt" nothing. Tasted pretty good, but nothing else.

Well over a year ago, I emailed back and forth with Dr. Jim Loi, a true pioneer, who assured me I'd get "very little" nicotine by such methods. I think he was right then and the same holds today. I know Kin differs. But nic "feel"? Nada.

However ...

How does Big Tobacco manage to market their smokeless products and get measurable nicotine from what is essentially a plain tobacco cigarette, moistened with PG, in a tube heated by a charcoal lump? See the diagrams on the Eclipse, Accord, Premier, et al.

So, past experiments aside, I remain hopeful that WTA will at least be partially found in the vapor created from a piece of VG-soaked little cigar.

Worst case scenario: I like the taste of the vapor, but find it ineffective. So? That's already my case. I'll just chain snus and Stonewall while using my e-cig as a visual delight at the same time. I do that now.

P.S. I'm soaking my pieces, and, curiously, the cigar does NOT absorb quickly. I may have to soak it overnight!

I settled on Neos Cappuccino Selection little cigars, with a 17 ring size. Easily fits my 801. Does not fit the 901. Does fit a cart for my Dura. The Neos pack was 10 little cigars for $5. They smell good enough to eat.

P.S. No, I do not think our e-liquid will be around long. I do not see how the present unregulated, wild-and-free environment can remain. Drug or tobacco classification, it makes no difference. The present situation is untenable. Most of my experiments are to have a vaping alternative to e-liquid and commercial carts. I like commercial flavors; I just don't expect to be able to obtain them a year from now.

 

[Treeburner1983]

Hi CTdopeLove,

Welcome to the fold. You didn't say how long you have been off the cigs. If you are new to this then the fun is yet to come. I made it almost a month before I really started feeling that something was missing. Guess it was the honeymoon associated with thinking I had actually pulled this off. Look forward to hearing more.

Sorry dunno how I missed this reply, but TV pointed out to me that I may want to take a second look at the replies, so I assume this is what he wanted me to comment on.

I do know some stuff about neurotransmitters and MAOI's, but if I'm confused on the results the actions of these chemicals have as outlined below, feel free to correct me.

I've only been vaping for a few weeks, so maybe I haven't gotten past the honeymoon period, to the point where I would start experiencing withdrawal symptoms others describe despite getting their nicotine. From doing some more reading on this thread, the MAOI activity of other chemicals in burnt tobacco smoke is concerning to me to say the least. I know about the impact MAOI's can have on dopamine and serotonin among other neurotransmitters, and how small changes in chemical activity in the brain can have a large impact, especially over a longer period of time.

However, there is an upside to this as well. If traditional tobacco smoke contains chemicals inhibiting MAO activity, this would in turn inhibit dopamine reuptake, as nicotine increases dopamine in the brain, and the inhibition of MAO activity would mean less dopamine being broken down, as there would be a greater concentration of dopamine available in the brain. This means our e-cigs are less addictive, as reuptake of dopamine is largely responsible for cravings and addiction in drugs of abuse. Since nicotine doesn't inhibit MAO activity on it's own, and e-juice does not contain the chemical that does, while we may experience withdrawal effects from cessation of traditional tobacco, we are exchanging it for a less addictive habit before the nicotine even comes into the equation.

This seems to be exactly what I've experienced so far, as I feel less addicted to nicotine now than I did when I was smoking, despite the short amount of time that has elapsed so far. I have less nicotine cravings than I did when smoking, and have noticed that once the novelty of vaping wore off, I'm using a lot less juice per day than I expected.

I will keep an eye on my symptoms and how they progress over time, and try to determine objectively which are simply a placebo from changing habits (ie rather read ECF than play a video game), and which may have a physiological basis. However, considering the extent of withdrawal I've gone through in the past coming off opioids (specifically ......), I'm beginning to question whether I would even be able to recognize mild depression in myself. I'll also continue to read through this thread, as I haven't gotten past the first 10 pages or so yet.

~CTdl

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Yes, CT, you're right about both dopamine and moai's. Certain alkaloids in tobacco (isolated by DVap) stimulate its production and hinder its re-uptake. Your logic on exchanging an addiction from maoi to just nic is a sound one and has worked for many. Over a period of time many people are restored to a normal state of psychology as their bodies adjust to the lack of ingestion of these alkaloids. Unfortunately, some either aren't restored due to long term abuse that has eventually changed the chemical structure of the brain or, in others, a system that never regulated itself properly from the start. In these cases the cigarette (alkaloids) serves as self administered medication. With the absence of this in e-liquids the user may be left with only a choice of returning to smoking or the use of prescription anti-depressants. It's shown that in the long term, these people continue on a downhill slide through abstinence, their brains won't adjust to the difference. The alternatives become grimmer as one slides into depression and is of more danger to those of us who have a history of chemical abuse. That's was my fear for you and sent the PM. There's every chance you don't fall into this catagory, but, as shown by your above post, your knowledge is useful here, as well as your input. I hope you'll continue to stay along and chime in whenever. Many members watch this thread and you might be the one that makes a comment or express an idea that brings it home for someone else. Thanks for all . TV

 

[Treeburner1983]

Glad I didn't screw up my reasoning on that one, as understanding of the breakdown of neurotransmitters and resulting reuptake issues sometimes evades me.

As for "feeling like something is missing", I've been thinking about it, and I am kind of feeling that way a bit. Quite often I get a craving to have a cigarette, but I won't give in more than once a day (usually half a cig). I kept telling myself that this was just my long term habit showing itself, and that as I got used to not "going out" for a smoke (which kind of broke up whatever I was doing and gave me a break from it) it would pass. I've also been looking in the refrigerator and the cabinets randomly, not sure what I'm looking for, just wanting "something."

Now I'm thinking maybe it's withdrawal from the MAOI's causing this "I want something, but I don't know what" feeling, and because withdrawals I've experienced in the past both from opioids and cold-turkey nicotine withdrawal were so severe, I have trouble discerning my current withdrawal effects from placebo. Will continue reading, and will post back if I have any more insights as to what I'm experiencing in my switch from smoking to vaping. Still not even sure this really is withdrawal, as the cessation of a long-term habit (smoking) would/does also have a withdrawal-type effect causing the habit to be "missed", just like you would miss anything that has been a part of your life for years and years (15 years smoking for me, and I'm only 26... smoking is all I know).

~CTdl

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

Cool, CT. Hope you find what you're looking for . Let me know if there's anything interesting in the fridg. I'll come right over .

 

[a2dcovert]

I'll make sure to try American Spirit, probably the one with perique, since I'm a pipe puffer.

Thumbs up, Ad2. Let us know how it works out for you.

Ok TB. About the little cigars, I will be handicapped as I only have 510 attys. I guess I,ll have to adapt.

Morning all!
TV brought this up a couple of days ago, Totally Wicked is putting together a structured trial on the efficacy of PV's. Today Pillbox posted an outline of the trials intended methodology:
Preparation For a Smoking Cessation Trial In association With "UEL"

I'm impressed...

I want no part of a trial. I'll be the one who gets the fake nicotine. That is if they do an honest trial.

TBob, do you really think the liquid we have now will survive Judge Leons decision?
DVap has numbers posted that show if we got 50% nic from a soak it would be very weak. If the WTA ratio is the same , it will be weak too. So, to feel much besides flavor, I dont see how you will get beyond reducing for concentrtion. Or vape your guts out.
DVap might surprize us though !

I think you are right Vaporer. I see sealed cartomizers on the horizon. No non cigarette tastes, and probably a limit of 26mg nic. I think the judge will render his decission as soon as the finger in the back pocket guys get their stories straight and the payout known.

 

[a2dcovert]

Cool, CT. Hope you find what you're looking for . Let me know if there's anything interesting in the fridg. I'll come right over .

Hey, DITTO. How far is that from here? Wouldn't matter anyway I'm 75 miles from home as it is.

First day back in a week and I have to travel in the rain and work overtime tonight. So much for light duty. Harumph!

 

[Vaporer]

TBob, Yea, thats pretty much how I see it. I just cant see getting it from something when its not there in a noticeable amount if its not concentrated. As for the Eclipse and such, I'd say they used hyped PG or tobacco to get it. I think DVaps figures stated abt 3mg/ml eliquid from a straight soak. If it cant be concentrated, wont do to many much good. I dont know how that applies to the alkaloid content though. Are there more alkaloids than nic to be recovered? I dont know or remember if he quoted that number in a way relative to eliquid.
I just didnt want to come across as a bubble buster. I wish he'd said more than just have American Spirit. I'd rather seen if you expect "..........." .
Using your nic liquid on the cigar will simulate what BT did, but my point is what happens if we dont have it. I feel like a real party pooper. I hope I'm wrong.

CT, It makes alot more sense if you look at DVap's table of catagories on his blog.
I'm a CAT4. I desire the MAOI's more so than the nic. The PV and eliquid did fine, but left me not feeling completely satisfied while some are. I have been given this as a medication before also, which I no longer take. So, it may be such a thing I desire the what we call WTA as much or more than the nic itself that I was getting from smoking. Or , just a small amount of nic is needed as I've found to be true. I can increase the nic level up to the point of feeling ill and feel no better. Add the WTA or snus and the itch is not there. On the flip side, the test did show that other CAT #'s were more in need of the nic, but felt an improvement with the WTA or snus added in the regieme. When I quit smoking I was smoking ultra lights after a 38 yr habit.

I hope that came through ok. Whew...................

 

[Vaporer]

a2d, if they hit 26mg it would surprize me. Trials that have gone on were using 16mg in Pa. I was actually surprized they allowed a level that high. If they have been reading here, we already know most will use 4x the strength analogs they smoked. Didn't cost them or us millions either. lol

16mg might help a few but will fall short of the majority for the nic need alone. All they will do is drive people back to thier analogs or have them go to the black market which will form. History has shown they have never prohibited anything with success and this will be something else for them to spend money on and fail miserably.
At some point you'd think they'd learn. But then, a lot of money can be hidden when you make claims and are allowed to show nothing for it vs what was spent.

 

[TWISTED VICTOR]

I want no part of a trial. I'll be the one who gets the fake nicotine. That is if they do an honest trial.

Ya got that right, Brother. Not only would I flunk test, I'd likely end up having to pay for the broken store front window at TW and the empty gallon jug of 555.

Are there more alkaloids than nic to be recovered? I dont know or remember if he quoted that number in a way relative to eliquid......
I just didnt want to come across as a bubble buster.......I feel like a real party pooper.

I hope that came through ok. Whew...................

Ok, Bubble Bustin' Party Pooper , It was 10% alkaloids and the other 90% was nic. I don't know if there's any order to the extraction there of, but he did comment on the undoubted potentcy of the alkaloids at such a small concentration.

 

[a2dcovert]

a2d, if they hit 26mg it would surprize me. Trials that have gone on were using 16mg in Pa. I was actually surprized they allowed a level that high. If they have been reading here, we already know most will use 4x the strength analogs they smoked. Didn't cost them or us millions either. lol

16mg might help a few but will fall short of the majority for the nic need alone. All they will do is drive people back to thier analogs or have them go to the black market which will form. History has shown they have never prohibited anything with success and this will be something else for them to spend money on and fail miserably.
At some point you'd think they'd learn. But then, a lot of money can be hidden when you make claims and are allowed to show nothing for it vs what was spent.

I just don't think that Detang would decide to drop the max nic levels to 26 coincidentally or that they now have removed all non-cig flavors. PureSmoker and a couple of others now stocking cartomizer e-cigs. I think something is up and people other than us know about it.

 

[Treeburner1983]

Went back and found the table posted by DVap, and I completely agree. Just like some people are more or less susceptible to depression or other mood disorders based at least partially on neurotransmitters and chemical balance, so too are people more susceptible to the effects (including dependence) of certain drugs. What I'd expect is if there was a study done on susceptibility to tobacco-MAOI addiction in people with a history of depression, you'd likely see that people attracted to the tobacco-MAOI's are those who have a history of depression, either in themselves or in their families.

Not only does brain chemistry come into effect, but a person's general temperament as well. If you're an easy going, upbeat person, you're less likely to suffer from depression than someone who's uptight and on edge.

As for me, I'd say I'm in quadrant 4. I already know that I like the stimulant class of drugs (in addition to most others that are considered recreational ), to which nicotine belongs, but I haven't noticed any real depression or anything beyond possibly threshold effects of MAOI w/d.

~CTdl