So in theory...

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roadrash

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eHuman,

I will give you my thoughts tomorrow....... Tonight I have a date with Ovation..... And yes RR my wife knows about it...she is invited. 4 hour ride, open bar, dinner and dancing.. I could not keep her away.

Infinity and Ovation - The Ovation

BB, O man do I love party boats. Have a few for me but dont fall overboard.Youll git your mod all wet.:laugh::laugh::toast::toast::party::thumbs::banana::smokie::thumb::vapor:
 

duby

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Power is totally relevant to vapor production. It is in fact as relevant if not more relevant than surface area in out case.

Watts is power. Power is Energy per second. A Watt is a Joule/Second (Joule is a measure of energy).

Heat is energy(thermal energy). It can be measured in joules.

Heat Transfer rate is the rate at which thermal energy is flowing. This is power. You're going to get a little bit confused here.
Heat transfer is commonly measured in terms of Heat Flux. Heat flux is Watts/m^2. That's watts per meter squared. Thats power per area. It describes the rate of heat transfer with respect to the contact area of two objects.
Simply put, If you take a hot object and place it in contact with a cold object, the heat transfer is greater the larger the contact area. Heat Flux accounts for that. I'll get back to this.

Temperature is a measurement of the average kinetic energy of the particles in a substance (I had to look this one up because the definition is tricky).
Thermal Energy is the kinetic energy from the motion of particles in a substance.
So the movement of the particles(atoms and molecules, etc) in heat. It determines how much energy it has.
Temperature is an average measure of that. Its kind of like voltage. A 10440 and a 18650 are both 4.2V but we know the 18650 has a lot more energy stored.
Similarly a piece of steel and a piece of wood can have the same temperature, but the steel is going to hold more thermal energy.

Boiling point is the temperature at which the vapor pressure of a liquid exceeds the surrounding pressure exerted on it. Simply the molecules are able to jump out and escape into a gas.
Boiling point goes down with decrease in pressure (This is important to us)

Heat of Vaporization is the amount of energy required to transform a given amount of a substance from a liquid to a gas. For PG it is 67 kJ/mol. or 880 Joules per gram or 880 Joules per ml. (Some rounding involved do the math your self if you want great accuracy. Heat of vaporization can also vary due to temperature and pressure.)

Nichrome wire converts electricity to heat with very high efficiency.

The coil is often submerged in the liquid

That heat is then transferred from the coil to the liquid. Much like boiling water, when the liquid reaches a certain temperature and continues to be heated, it vaporizes. That vaporization process takes with it energy (heat).

Heating 0.1ml of PG to its boiling point will take approximately 37 Joules of heat. If you want that to happen the first second you push the button, that 37 watts. But other things are happening that don't make this exactly true.

Let's say you use 0.1ml of liquid in 10 seconds. That would take 8.8 watts of power for simply vaporizing the liquid. This doesn't include heating the liquid to its boiling point. But other things are happening that don't make this exactly true.

When you suck on an e-cig you create a localized vacuum. This reduces the boiling point and causes more of it to vaporize. This reduces the time/heat required to raise its temperature, and reduces the heat of vaporization.

If you noticed, you atty/e-cig/finger/etc get hot. Thats because heat is escaping to the outside. The larger your coil the more likely this is to happen. The liquid as it is heated transfers heat to the outside of the atty. So we have some escaping power there.

The liquid is also warmer on subsequent hits. If you noticed, vapor production is higher since the liquid is already warm and requires less heat to reach its boiling point.

Thats probably a lot more info than you needed. I need to get back to why power matters more than temperature.

Saying temperature is more important than power is akin to saying a 4.2V battery is the same as any other 4.2V battery. We all know a 14250 battery isn't going to hold a candle to an 18650. Or comparing a fire hydrant to a super soaker as long as the pressure is the same.

Lets say we took two identical pots of water. Stick one in the oven and set it to 212 Fahrenheit set the other on the stove and turn it on med-high. Wait 30 minutes and see which one has boiled off more water.

Every molecule of vapor produced will take with it a certain amount of heat. That heat needs to be constantly replaced.

Now with that being said, I will try to answer the question of what the boiling point of juice is.


The boiling point of every liquid is going to be different based on its composition. Propylene Glycol is 188.2 °C (370.8 °F) and Glycerin is 290 °C (554°F). That's assuming pure composition. Most mixture include some water which will reduce the boiling points. Flavors and additives will also effect the boiling point just like adding salt to water makes it boil at a higher temperature.
Boiling points vary with air pressure as well. This is why you see little vapor until you start sucking on it.

Now the max temperature of a dry, bare coil is going to be different than that coil when it is wet and producing vapor.
 

AttyPops

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Wow... So.. where did we end up here? I'm thinking about how to build an atty also (in case the devices get banned and I have no other options), which is why I bothered to comment in the 1st answer and read the posts. Thanks, BTW, to everyone that takes the time to be positive and supply information to help us modders out. I did a lot of reading through this thread and others and found that the conclusions are:

1) Watts count. Not the amps alone, nor the volts alone. Although different wires will produce varied heat due to efficiency variances even at the same watts.
2) Thus, materials vary (wires, batteries, even e-juice) and some results must be obtained via experiential means.
3) They all "wear out". Although heat per volume of liquid could be maintained and the amount of wire/number of wires adjusted possibly reducing the heat/cool breakdown. We aren't even talking about build-up on the coil yet.
4) Ohm's law is handy... but remember it is for a theoretical "perfect conductor" situation, doesn't allow for things like inductance, different batteries producing different variances.... I guess I'm trying to say that it gets you in the ball park, but experimentation is needed even in a simple circuit like this especially due to #2.
5) NichromeCalc calculators are really cool. (thanks duby).
6) Basically what WillyB, ZeroTao, BigBlue30, and duby said.

None of this really answers some of the other "hidden" points in eHuman's other replies...(well... there are pieces all over the place). Duby had some answers.... How does all this effect the vapor production (not really the original question though)?. The original question seems centered on batteries, current, voltage, etc. But later, it all comes down to "How do you optimize an atty design for a particular set of desired qualities such as vapor production/second for a "typical e-juice" (whatever that it), TH, nicotine vaporization, no "bad stuff" produced from too high a temp, etc.

<snip>
It is technically possible (in my mind) to engineer the correct atty with the temperature characteristics that will both operate in the heat range needed for proper vaporization and be alot tougher to physically burn up. Then design my packaging for the optimized atty rather than fitting the best one I can in a predetermined size package..

And with all of this thought going into this, no I'm not looking into marketing, I'm just a tinkerer at heart.

My 1st obstacle is determining temperature ranges.

There are posts elsewhere that investigate temp ranges from a chemical, not an EE standpoint, that may be of interest to you. I suggest that you check the health section posts too. Note, as previously stated, different juices have different vaporization points/temps. And there are several atties on the market that last many months, after which they just "gunk up". Residue seems to be a major issue. Also cleaning procedures may be relevant too. Wicking/feeding is just as important, and so is FLAVOR. Many variable are subjective (flavor, TH, vapor/second).

What about skipping nichrome? A microwave vaporizer? Lasers? Of course, you'd need your own private power company for some of em (LOL).

Hmmm... Interesting thread. I was wondering if you were after a patent by differentiating your device somehow... But tinkering is always fun! Please keep us posted on what you find. :D
 
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bigblue30

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Hope you enjoy yourself Blue!

Thanks eHuman,

Obviously my 4 hour boat ride went a little long…sorry if I repeat what duby and attypops said, but it is easier than starting all over.



I am not sure where we are going with this post either, attypops. We are now talking about electronics, Thermal Dynamics, metal metallurgy and manufacturing, my head is spinning. Or should I say shaken not stirred after that 4 hour party boat ride….



I am still partly hung up on wattages effect on the adjustable sweet spot, due probably more to the practical application than anything else.


With that in mind I will respond with practical comments as they pertain to e-cigs and mods.



I can make any atomizer I want with any resistance rating in any gauge or length that I desire only restrained by the properties of the materials that I use. I am more limited if I have a pre-existing enclosure that I must place the atty in, But I am not limiting myself to that.


We are talking practical here? Something that would work for an e-cig….I know we could build an atty that could boil 100 gallons of maple sap and turn it into syrup, but we are talking a usable e-cig device.



Here is why:

Refer to Wire Specs and Current vs.Temperature chart at bottom of PnJ Resources, LLC : Nichrome 80


This is why we need to stay practical…. The Current vs.Temperature in the chart is for a straight piece of wire (not coiled like in an atty), dry (not cooled by e-juice) at room temp, (here it would depend how often you hit the e-cig and then allow it to cool), and an open air environment (again not sitting in e-juice). I know this because I called a manufacturer and asked.

Again I will talk practical or real world. Book smarts or book knowledge is a way to decide what you want to do…, but real world “reality” almost always shows that building and testing is the only way to see if the books were correct for your application.

My real unknown value is the full physical temperature range at which vaporization of our liquid can take place.


I agree. Thanks duby for jumping in here. You will have to research the temp of vaporization for: PG, VG, PGA, flavor with water, flavor with oil, the nic base you are using, and the all the different percentages of these ingredients that could be used in your target e-juice.


That will dictate which gauges of wire I can use in order to achieve the desired results.


That and real world test will tell you. Until you do real testing, at best the book “stats” will only give you a starting point. To that, I can tell you this…. My 5 watt setup (3.86 volts and 3 ohm catro) gives me these temps:


1. At rest 77 degrees

2. With a 5 second hit 161 f

3. With a 15 second hit 300 f


These measurements were taken with the probe stuck in the coil,no air flow, and with a full load of juice.


So even after 15 seconds I was only at 300 f. By the chart you provided, my current of 1.4 amps should have at lease reached 800 f with any size wire. Again Real Vs. Book, as duby pointed out.


The heavier gauge I use the shorter the coil must become, and the lighter the longer for a given resistance.



I am sure you meant the bigger the gauge not the heavier. A 20 gauge wire is bigger then a 30 gauge.

Doubling the size of the wire gives you 25% of the resistance:

36 G 0.005 in 25.12 ohms
30 G 0.010 in 6.50 ohms

And requires a doubling of the voltage to get the same “heat”. So, real world again. I would love to have a monster size wire in my atty….., But I am limited by the practical voltage I can carry around for a e-gig. 5 watts with 36g requires 5.70 volts and 36g requires 11.20 per 1 foot of wire. I know we are not going to use a foot of wire, but do you see my point?


TH may indeed be a product of wattage and amperage (which are slaves to Voltage and resistance) but vapor volume is a byproduct of the surface area of the coil which determines the rate of vapor production at that sweet spot TH.


I would suggest that the liquid will vape far outside the diameter of the wire. Look at a used carto and you will see black far out from the wire, but I agree the bigger the wire the better it is for vapor production if you can afford the voltage hit and the length.


I am sure that is why the e-cig manufactures use the Gauge they do. It is a compromise between (long life and vapor) and (available voltage and size).


This is why the power factor (Not technically the correct term for DC voltage) is irrelevant (but probably in my mind only) because there should technically be more than one configuration wattage wise to obtain the heat I need in a more robust configuration than we currently have. But even if it turns out that it ends up being the same wattage in all cases, that is not the important part - just the price that has to be paid in order to get there.

It is technically possible (in my mind) to engineer the correct atty with the temperature characteristics that will both operate in the heat range needed for proper vaporization and be alot tougher to physically burn up. Then design my packaging for the optimized atty rather than fitting the best one I can in a predetermined size package..



After the research is done on the “boiling point” of your target liquid, I believe that next stop in building the “ultimate” atty is picking a wattage “target”.

A good middle ground might be 5 watts. Knowing your watts, the next choice would be voltage. Practical voltage in e-cigs is 3-8 volts, unless you also want to build a custom e-cig that can go up to 20 or so volts (that I can help you with). So let's choose 4 volts. You now that know that the wire has to be 3.2 ohms. Now you can play with wire size to fit your requirements.



This post is one of the best arguments I have seen for variable voltage. Why? Because once you lock into a resistance and a liquid the only way to adjust for the perfect TH is by changing the wattage “heat”. That can only be done with a VV device.
 

eHuman

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Thats probably a lot more info than you needed.

No duby that's probably exactly what I neede to hear to clear it up. Because of my background and personality, I'd rather spend 8 hours trying to understand how and why variable relationships affect each other in something like this even if the work that results from it takes only 30 minutes to complete. I allows me the flexability to customize to suit my needs or desires without having to build countless trial models. It keeps you from building something that just won't work even in theory. Get as close in theory then make adjustments as needed.

Someone can tell me, use x gauge wire length of y coil diameter of z and I can do it. I feel better when I know why, it makes spotting problems a breeze.

Thank you all for the input. I won't even start on my projects for a while because i'm moving in a couple months and I want to wait until after to set up my hobby space permanant.

Add more as you see the need.

So bottom line:
a. 3.7v, 3.9ohm atty = .95A, and 3.5 watts
b. 3.7v, 1.9ohm atty = 1.95A and 7.2 watts
c. 7.4v, 3.9ohm atty = 1.9A and 14 watts

b. is twice as good as a. and c. is twice as good as b.

By doubling the voltage (keeping the same atty) we increase the power and vape "quality" x4.

This is actually very clear and what I needed. I was looking into the viablity of a one battery VV mod using a LR atty. When I assumed that it was the current that was important, I saw the same model possible from a 3.7v 1.9ohm setup as I did from a 7.4v 3.9. It is actually x2, not equal.
With a 3000mAh batt this would have been a kickin PV in a very small package potential. And technically it still is compared to a regular atty on one batt and I'll likely build 3.7v variable just to do it. But the 7.4 is where it will really be at.
 

eHuman

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ya blue I meant bigger gauge as in physical not number. The questions really never stemmed from a variable verses fixed point of view, variable it the cheapest easiest cleanest way to fine tune around a set range. Most of thes questions stemmed from my wanting to build a single cell VV that could perform to par with a 2 call VV. It just isn't possible though.

The core answer that I was looking for that stated this thread has been answered, but I understand why now which is better than just, "no that won't work". The information that everyone contrubuted will be more than valuable to myself and others for what I do end up building.


And you are right, I don't think that I would have thought to start this thread if the methods vs bennefits of VV were understood from the threads that I have read. I agreed that VV was superior for the customizable possibilities, but I thought it was because of amperage not wattage.

Now I knew!
 
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bigblue30

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Ahhhh! This argument drives me crazy. Watts do not equal heat. Amperage gives you the heat. The focus needs to be on the amps, not the watts.


So if I tell you that my mod puts out 2 amps….that is all the info you need to tell the performance and “heat” of my mod?

Amps or amperage is the measure of electrons passing a give point per second. It tells you nothing about the “work” or “heat” being created. I will agree that electrons flowing in a wire is what makes heat.

2 amps at 1, 2 or 5 volts is not the same “heat”.

You need more pieces of the puzzle. Current by itself it useless, it tells you nothing.

Now if you tell me 2 amps at 5 volts then that tells me something. Or you could just say my mod is using 10 watts.

If you see this different please let me know.
 
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spaky

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I do see it different. By your way there would be no need for high voltage transmission lines. If watts=heat, then a 1,000,000V line with 1A running through it gives you 1,000,000W. Then why not just transmit it at 100V and 10,000A. It gives you the same amount of watts. The problem would be that you would need much larger wire because 10,000A is much hotter than 1A, it doesn't matter what voltage.

If you have access to different voltages, go see how hot a wire is at different voltages and the same current. I'm an electrician and I've dealt with plenty of them. If you have a 480 circuit at 20A, the wire will be the same temperature as a 120 circuit at 20A. Even though the 480 circuit has 4 times the wattage. There is a reason that the NEC codebook has amperage limits on wire, and not wattage limits.

While I agree that a higher wattage will allow you to do more "work", in an ecig there is no actual work being done, just heat in a purely resistive circuit.
 

AttyPops

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Ok, so this is obviously a private conversation in a public thread. But I still have to comment on the watts thing:

Watts matter. I don't know where you get your examples, but amps alone do nothing. They perform no WORK. So in your example the low voltage has a lot of amps not pushing very hard. Think of 10,000 people pulling a rope with a stone from the Great Pyramid using only their little finger of their weakest hand (low voltage) or 10,000 people pulling the rope as hard as they can using all their body (high voltage). You can move the stone with various numbers of people (amps) and force exerted (volts... actually potential difference). BOTH count, and that is measured in watts.

Also, your original question was about using low voltage and high amperage. It is more efficient to have higher volts and lower amps in many systems (at least more cost effective). Hmmm.. Does this mean that lower volts/higher amps system being being less efficient "waste" more energy as heat? Note the difference in 220 volt systems vs 110 volt systems (note however, that is AC and not DC).

So, Watts count. Watts measures work. Work IS performed when transferring current to heat via a resistance (the actual work). The efficiency of that work may be questioned. Although I would entertain a discussion of amps vs volts in effectiveness, neither will perform any effective work without the other.

Your point about high voltage is demonstrated in Tesla Coils quite frequently. However, there has to be some amperage and voltage, or work will not be performed. So, AMPS do not equal heat (by themselves).

Hows the atty coming?
 
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duby

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in an ecig there is no actual work being done,
This is entirely untrue. Heat is energy and the act of heating something is work.
Through the same rationale that you can burn coal to release chemical energy in the form of heat, boil water, create steam, run and engine, and move a train across country we use stored chemical energy in a battery to generate an electrical current, power an atomizer that converts that energy to heat and boil liquid. Both processes perform work.

I don't know how to explain this better. Heat is energy. The transfer of heat from one substance to another is in terms of Watts(power).
 

bigblue30

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I do see it different. By your way there would be no need for high voltage transmission lines. If watts=heat, then a 1,000,000V line with 1A running through it gives you 1,000,000W. Then why not just transmit it at 100V and 10,000A. It gives you the same amount of watts. The problem would be that you would need much larger wire because 10,000A is much hotter than 1A, it doesn't matter what voltage.

Thank you…that is the best argument you could give for looking at watts.

I would never use that analogy, because the 100 volt line wastes more watts then the 1,000,000 volt line, but without looking at watts and only looking at current we would not know that. The 100v line wastes in heat 90,702,800 times more watts than the 1,000,000 line to transmit the same amount of power. That is why the power company uses high voltage lines. It's purely a cost savings.

I would be happy to send you a PM if you need the proof of the two lines above that I've posted.

If you have access to different voltages, go see how hot a wire is at different voltages and the same current. I'm an electrician and I've dealt with plenty of them. If you have a 480 circuit at 20A, the wire will be the same temperature as a 120 circuit at 20A. Even though the 480 circuit has 4 times the wattage. There is a reason that the NEC codebook has amperage limits on wire, and not wattage limits.

For a given voltage, are you telling me that you can use the same wire in a 480 20A circuit as in a 120V 20 amp circuit? The NEC already did the math for you and it was based on the wattage rating of the wire.

If you look at the book, you will also see that the 480 wire is much larger in diameter and able to dissipate heat much more efficiently. Using the same voltage, if you had a piece of the 120 volt wire and a piece of the 480 volt wire that used the same amount of watts (BTW, the 480 would have to be much longer because it has a lower resistance), you would have the exact amount of heat from both.

That is a great argument for looking at Wattage. Looking at voltage or just amps means nothing. It is the heat (or watts) in an atty we care about. The 480 volt circuit has larger wire (lower resistance) that the 120 volt one. When you look at wattage, you are taking into account voltage, resistance, and amps. Amps are a part of wattage, but only a part.


While I agree that a higher wattage will allow you to do more "work", in an ecig there is no actual work being done, just heat in a purely resistive circuit.
This is where I have to disagree. The process of turning energy into heat is the definition of work. In Physics, we say that work is done on an object when you transfer energy to that object. For introductory thinking, this is the best definition of work. ...

In an e-cig, we transfer the potential in the battery to heat.



 

tdh

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You can't treat load power the same way as line loss. High voltage lines are more efficient than low voltage lines, and ac is more efficient than dc lines. This has to do with the reactive and thermal properties of copper. Comparing line loss to load power is just silly. If you wanted to use power lines for an accurate comparison, you would have to short circuit the lines. The high voltage line would get hotter before the breaker tripped.


WikiAnswers - What is formula for calculation of line loss

If you would rather focus on current than voltage, then use I^2 R for power. A high voltage power line will lose the same heat as a low voltage power line if they both have the same resistance, but the point is that in the case of making a mod, a 3.7V circuit will have a different current than a 6v circuit.

A 3.6v, 3.6 ohm circuit will run at 1 amp, 3.6w
a 7.2v, 7.2 ohm circuit will run at 1 amp, 7.2w

The 7.2 watt case will produce twice as much heat, but the line loss will be the same (1 amp * 1 amp * the resistance of the wiring, joints, switches, etc). We aren't concerned with line loss, though, since we are using only a few inches of wire.

Voltage and current are the properties that can be controlled directly (by adding and removing components). Current is a secondary property that is only useful if you have more than one component consuming a significant amount of power (i.e. using a linear regulator or resistor in series with the atty)

That said, two mods with the same power but different voltages wouldn't vape the same, though. There are other properties to consider, like the size and shape of the heating coil. Higher voltage/higher resistance will involve a longer or thinner coil in the atty. A longer coil would have a higher surface area/lower temperature and may produce a more even vape, while a thinner coil would have a higher temperature. I only have one lr atty for comparison, but it looks like the coil is shorter than my 3ohm attys.
 

AttyPops

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Use one of BigBlue's microprocessors as an atty.... Nice flat surface area... add a needle valve or other vaporizer to mist the liquid before it hits the top of the processor... Oh, and you could have it perform calculations while it is running.. like folding@home. So all the users would be working for the cancer cure while vaping......... :) :) :)

No nichrome either. Electroplate the top of the processor so it doesn't corrode. You'd have to have a channel running across it for the vapor. The microprocessors have built in thermal throttling too.
 

AttyPops

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Lolz....

Your post #27, in particular, hits most everything on the head as far as I can tell... What about multiple coils to increase surface area rather than larger wire? 2 coils would be like a LR atty???? due to the lower resistance. As long as the battery/power source had enough amps output. Just hard to put 2 coils in one space and not have them short. I suppose this is similar to a larger diameter wire. Hmmm... "stranded" nichrome wire? Since the nichrome is acting as a resister, would it still heat all strands? Plenty of surface area. Might get "gunky" fast. I wonder if one could use a concept similar to the "on demand" water heaters and just pass e-juice through a tube... heated on the OUTSIDE so the juice doesn't contact the coil. There would be a delay, but if small enough, hopefully no worse than the "auto batteries" people use. The new juice entering may just clean the system as it goes.....

Anyone ever try a heated tube type of atty?

P.S. I think we could "clean up" on your "maple syrup atty" machine! Most of em are still using kettles (traditionalists... whataya gonna do...). We could use the steam to turn a turbine/generator and recoup a % of the energy going in too.....
 
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BuzzKill

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Damn just vary the voltage and you are DONE ! ( it is the easiest way to control the circuit we use )

anyhow higher voltage and a lower current ( hence higher resistance atty ) is better for batteries ( you might need 3 of them but ) batteries are FIXED VOLTAGE and store CURRENT so the less current you can use the longer they will last. I.E/ MAH ratings , so maybe a 3 battery 9 volt device with a HV atty would maximize the battery life and give you the same power/ watts ?????

Nichrome wire is another topic I will leave to the experts like the nichrome wire guys LOL !
 
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