So What's the verdict? WTA's in E Juice or Not?

[DVap]

How important is this? I ask this question both 1.) are analogs not sufficient and 2.) do they really need to be sourced from tobacco? Say for example we just want to add an MAOI. I've experimented with adding harmine to e-juice but I would need more subjects than myself to comment on its efficacy satisfying WTA cravings. Harmine is present in tobacco, but I'm not going to take the time to use it as a source when it's available for sale already isolated (you local laws may vary).

The large question I see when adding tobacco's alkaloids other than nicotine is 1.) the efficiency of their delivery and 2.) their natural quantities relative to nicotine.

Harmine is a relatively safe MAOI but it isn't something I would feel comfortable dispensing at unregarded doses

The MAOI activity of tobacco vis a vis it's addictiveness and efficacy in making some folks feel human is a fairly sound theory, but until and unless someone can come up with a mixture of non-tobacco derived compounds that does the trick for folks who must have the medicinal effects of tobacco, it's just a fairly sound theory.

The theory at work behind my extraction and purification of tobacco alkaloids is simply that which I've said many times, "Nothing is more like tobacco than tobacco". While the impressions of folks such as Hittman, Vaporer, Twisted Victor, Kurt, TropicalBob, and a couple others who have had the opportunity to use my WTA eliquid does not constitute "proof" of my theory that the tobacco alkaloid spread is the "magic bullet", their common experience of a deeply relaxing WTA vape certainly speaks to the anecdotal side of the question. If you give somebody something to use, and they find that it performs a certain desired function well, then that function has been satisfied, and that something is deemed "effective" by that person.

The bottom line effect that I observe is this, Users of the WTA eliquid that I've produced are crazy about the stuff. They find their cravings are satisfied, their usage drops, and they're feeling good. Twisted Victor is the "poster child" for this effect. He happily uses snus these days, but WTA was the first hope he had for feeling "normal", and indeed he felt normal when using it, progressing then onto the readily available snus which works in a very similar manner in providing WTA as does WTA eliquid.

Gawd.. I write geeky, don't I?

 

[ShannonA]

Yes but-and I hate to diminish their willpower and accomplishment as it is major-it has been plainly obvious to me for over 20 years that some people just don't get as addicted to nicotine/cigs as others both physically and otherwise. Must be brain chemistry and such. And it's not just cigarettes of course that you can say this about but they are pretty much the most notable due to the severe physical dependence that most regular users develop. As I love to point out only opiates can compare in this regard.

Im watching this thread and subject with interest.

Well nicotine is just like any other substance some get hooked on it some dont. Alcohol is a prime example. I can go without a drink for months. Every now in then to celebrate something I'll drink. I may even tie one on but then I go right back to leaving it alone.

I'm pretty sure most of us know at least one person who has trouble going a week or maybe even a day without alcohol. The main difference is nicotine or at least something in tobacco hooks a higher ratio of people than alcohol does.

They say nicotine is more addictive than ........ I'm not sure that's always tue. For some of us the action of smoking has been a lot harder to let go of than the substances in the cigarettes (and nicotine isn't the only substance in question there).

 

[wrigleyvillain]

I'm pretty sure most of us know at least one person who has trouble going a week or maybe even a day without alcohol. The main difference is nicotine or at least something in tobacco hooks a higher ratio of people than alcohol does.

They say nicotine is more addictive than ........ I'm not sure that's always tue. For some of us the action of smoking has been a lot harder to let go of than the substances in the cigarettes (and nicotine isn't the only substance in question there).

Yes nicotine does "hook" a higher amount of people I'd say mainly as it has such a severe physical dependence like nothing else as far as I know except opiates (pain killers, smack etc). The craving and withdrawals are an actual physical feeling (though of course opiate addiction and withdrawal generally so much worse). I was a daily drunk for years and I never had a physical urge for booze that I needed to satisfy like a form of hunger almost. Some people get there and worse eventually with alcohol (the shakes etc) but still it's not quite the same and nothing is.

But this thread is about taking it a step farther even in that it seems it hooks some people much worse and it much worse ways (i.e. depression) and why that is/what it is about their brain chemistry. WTAs may be it or it may be just the starting point. Ultimately, I'd like "better" juice that perhaps has more than just nic and truly replaces all the "good stuff" our brains get from tobacco consumption. Which, again, some folks are going to need and benefit from more than others.

 

[DVap]

Yes nicotine does "hook" a higher amount of people I'd say mainly as it has such a severe physical dependence like nothing else as far as I know except opiates (pain killers, smack etc). The craving and withdrawals are an actual physical feeling (though of course opiate addiction and withdrawal generally so much worse). I was a daily drunk for years and I never had a physical urge for booze that I needed to satisfy like a form of hunger almost. Some people get there and worse eventually with alcohol (the shakes etc) but still it's not quite the same and nothing is.

But this thread is about taking it a step farther even in that it seems it hooks some people much worse and it much worse ways (i.e. depression) and why that is/what it is about their brain chemistry. WTAs may be it or it may be just the starting point. Ultimately, I'd like "better" juice that perhaps has more than just nic and truly replaces all the "good stuff" our brains get from tobacco consumption. Which, again, some folks are going to need and benefit from more than others.

Yep. and as far as the material being discussed in this thread, there's nothing new. The point has actually been hammered so far into the ground in some older threads here that there's a guy sitting on a beach somewhere in China right now getting poked in the .... by a nail that's slowly rising out of the sand.

The irony, kinda, for me with WTA eliquid is that I'm not one of the people who really benefit for WTA. I like vaping the stuff, heck, I LOVE vaping the stuff, it's so realistic. But if I go back to nicotine only eliquid, I suffer little ill effect in the transition. But that's just my brain.

 

[progg]

Dvap -- Are you considering a business?

 

[Halsey]

How important is this? I ask this question both 1.) are analogs not sufficient and 2.) do they really need to be sourced from tobacco?

1. I think the idea is to avoid analogs, at least for most looking for these answers.
2. I doubt most people care about the source, plant or lab, or whatever, as long as it's 'clean/safe' and vapable.

Important is kind of relative. Yes, if vaping + stonewall/ariva/cigrx works, that is certainly a solution for any who need it, and really want off analogs. However I think most would prefer all of their cigarette drug replacement come from one source, and I think most here would prefer it be vaping. Aside from just preference there is also the issue of dosage, if the ratios are at all similar to those in a cigarette, my guess based on studies done on smokers self regulating their nicotine intake between brands etc is that most ex smokers with a vaporizer would be very efficient at self regulating. You need a little bump you take a puff or two, you have a mad craving you chain vape for a bit. Think about smoking, at leas for me there is a world of difference in how I smoke a relaxed smoke in general, and that first smoke after not being able to have one for awhile, or when I particularly feel the need for one. Pills don't work that way, yes you can cut them in half etc., but not nearly as granular as self controlled inhalation.

Now personally I haven't tried to quit, as mentioned in another thread I started vaping for convenience, not to quit. I have been amazed by how much I've cut down with out trying to at all. That has made me consider the possibility of quitting analogs completely.

However, reading here, followed by running all over the net looking at studies has made me nervous. My family has some history of mental issues. I KNOW I have some, including a tendency toward depression. I've always been happy, and a bit proud that they weren't bad enough, or I was 'strong' enough to deal with them on my own without professional help and/or a giant pill box. Now I'm wondering just how much of that is me, and how much is the fact that I've been self medicating for 20 some years with smokes.

I do enjoy the act of smoking, and likely always will, vaping to a large extent does replace that, but I'd have a much easier time deciding to take the leap to trying to vape only if I knew there was a way to add in the other things the vapor might not replace.

Ignoring the dosage, and just the act of smoking I think so many of us are addicted to then comes the convenience issue. There are enough threads about the hassle of having to carry spare batteries, atomizers/cartomizers, carts, juice, etc whenever leaving the house now. Even it ariva, snus or whatever works well for some, it's just one more thing they need to carry around and make sure they have handy.

Hmmm, sorry about the wall of text there, I'll go ramble somewhere else for awhile..

 

[Halsey]

Dvap -- Are you considering a business?

I'm pretty sure DVap has mentioned elsewhere that no, he unfortunately has no intention of going into business selling WTA. Sucks, but I can certainly respect his choice not to want to deal with the numerous hassles involved.

 

[progg]

I'm pretty sure DVap has mentioned elsewhere that no, he unfortunately has no intention of going into business selling WTA. Sucks, but I can certainly respect his choice not to want to deal with the numerous hassles involved.

Thank you Halsey.

In hindsight, I think my question was impolitic. Whether DVap envisions an enterprise (I hope he does) or not, if he were to answer his membership status could be affected.

I apologize.

 

[H. Wordsmythe]

Yes nicotine does "hook" a higher amount of people I'd say mainly as it has such a severe physical dependence like nothing else as far as I know except opiates (pain killers, smack etc). The craving and withdrawals are an actual physical feeling (though of course opiate addiction and withdrawal generally so much worse). I was a daily drunk for years and I never had a physical urge for booze that I needed to satisfy like a form of hunger almost. Some people get there and worse eventually with alcohol (the shakes etc) but still it's not quite the same and nothing is.

But this thread is about taking it a step farther even in that it seems it hooks some people much worse and it much worse ways (i.e. depression) and why that is/what it is about their brain chemistry. WTAs may be it or it may be just the starting point. Ultimately, I'd like "better" juice that perhaps has more than just nic and truly replaces all the "good stuff" our brains get from tobacco consumption. Which, again, some folks are going to need and benefit from more than others.

Personally, I find psychological addiction to be much more difficult to surmount than physical addiction. I've dealt with various addictions in my life, and the physical symptoms of going without the fix never really got to me. I don't really care about the headaches or the shakes or anything else; if I can survive a week or two of bad flu or bronchitis, physical withdrawal from nicotine is no biggie. As a matter of fact, I would sometimes go all day without a cigarette and be just fine (though there were other times I'd chain smoke like mad). As long as I knew there was one waiting for me before I went to bed, all was copacetic. And that was the hitch right there - I had to know that my crutch would be available, and that I wasn't giving anything up. So, despite my ability to ignore physical withdrawal symptoms, I still never thought I would ever be able to quit without severe depression, because I was so mentally/emotionally/psychologically dependent. The very idea of life without cigarettes was horrifying. But I have known many people who had an intense physical addiction, and would get fidgety and stir-crazy if they didn't smoke a cigarette every hour or so. The funny thing is that most of the people I know who quit cold turkey were people like that. It seems that once they got past the physical cravings, they were level enough to stay "clean". A lot of my friends were complete fiends, but then quit, whereas I could control my habit much better than they could, but was still smoking years after they stopped. Sort of ironic. Of course this is all of my own experience and observation, and since I started hanging out here, I see that there are many more types of tobacco addicts than I imagined, which finally brings me around to the actual topic of this thread (sorry for my rambling) - it seems to me that a commercially produced WTA could greatly help the group of smokers that really NEED that chemical hit to get off the analogs. I think that in most cases, once they were off for a few weeks, they'd find that vaping had started to satisfy them just as much as their cigarettes had. I'm glad I'm not one of those people though! I feel very fortunate and blessed to have been able to transfer my psych addiction from smoke to vapor. I would still be interested in trying a WTA juice though...

 

[DVap]

I'm really not considering going into business.

If somebody who had the qualifications was considering it, I'd certainly be happy to lend my experience and advice in order for them to avoid having to re-invent the wheel.

I've already worked through the difficult stuff, and there are also different more cost effective processes that could be utilized to the same end by somebody who was willing and able to put some resources into it.

If the guy behind Vapelicious is indeed coming out with a WTA, I'm not inclined to contact him myself, but rather he'd be welcome to contact me. I could probably give him a word of advice or two as far as the process as well as the mg/mL ranges that might work well for various folks using a WTA. I guess if he markets it, he'll hear my name sooner or later.. up to him if he wants to talk.

 

[Hellen A. Handbasket]

If anyone needed details on Snus or snuff... the discussion area on ECF is here: Smokeless tobacco and I'm sure Hitt and the others can really help with questions and suggestions. They were nice enough to hold my hand for a while. LOL.

@ DVap - I hope some day you'll reconsider the business aspect of your WTA knowledge (or at least go in with someone as a consultant!). I suppose the FDA climate isn't the best for that kind of liquid confused but I think it would be the thing that would make vaping the perfect replacement for people like me who still have that monkey in their brain throwing bananas and demanding happy hits. If you (or anyone else) ever find someone who is making a WTA liquid right, would you PM me (I'm easy to find... I sit on the sofa next to TwistedVictor. LOL.) I'm struggling along after a rough personal period in my life and I'm back to smoking a bit (and vaping) so I feel "normal" and would much rather just vape (something that works well).

 

[hittman]

Hellen, first of all, how the heck are you? I haven't had a chance to talk to you in some time. Now back on subject. You have confused me Hellen. I'll admit that sometimes that isn't too hard to accomplish but in this case I think there has been a misunderstanding. In that post I wasn't referring to anything that you had written Hellen. I was referring to the thread that John gave the link to where what I had in quotes was typed by someone on that thread.

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

Has anyone looked into these
CigRX - A Smoking Alternative | Science
These pills are suppose to contain some minor tobacco alkaloids and help the 'smoker' relieve the urge .....is this just hype or has anyone tried these??
tia

 

[Hellen A. Handbasket]

*head smack*

See why I need WTA liquid? LOL

Edited my earlier post. *hugz to Hitt*

 

[Hellen A. Handbasket]

Has anyone looked into these
CigRX - A Smoking Alternative | Science
These pills are suppose to contain some minor tobacco alkaloids and help the 'smoker' relieve the urge .....is this just hype or has anyone tried these??
tia

TropicalBob!



If you are interested in trying it, there is a coupon code for 50% off! (todays10).
www.cigrx.com

 

[Sugar_and_Spice]

TropicalBob!



If you are interested in trying it, there is a coupon code for 50% off! (todays10).
CiGRX - A Smoking Alternative

Thank you so much for posting that.....you are a doll.

 

[hittman]

Hellen, thanks for that video. I had not seen that one by TB yet. I know a couple people in the smokeless forum tried the cigrx and said that it alone didn't do much good. Maybe TB is on to something. I think for me however that I enjoy snus too much to replace it with something else. At least for right now anyway.

 

[DVap]

I'm a bit surprised that Bob questioned whether ecigs deliver the nicotine. Through the vapor trapping experiments I started and Exo perfected, it was clearly demonstrated that ecigs deliver the nicotine. Not to mention, of course, the calibrated nicotine test strips that also clearly show significant cotinine in the whiz of vapers.

Also, after trying my WTA liquid at 48 mg, I recall Bob needing to lie down and think happy thoughts for a bit.

Nicotine is one component of the WTA spread, anatabine is another. It would make sense to figure that each alone might be lacking, and together they would synergize and work better than each individually, but still, the combination of nicotine and anatabine is far from the entirety of components that are provided with the alkaloids extractable from whole tobacco.

With the belief that every brain behaves differently, it is conceivable that, for some, using the CigRX along with vaping regular nicotine eliquid might provide an effective (or at least more effective) one-two punch. The combination of nicotine and anatabine represents what we might call a "surgical strike" against what ails us. Unfortunately, for some, nicotine and anatabine combined still might not be enough. This is where snus comes in, it provides the entire WTA spread, effectively carpet-bombing whatever ails us. Of course, the WTA eliquid does the same, however, I can count on my hands the number of people who I've been able to let experience the WTA eliquid effect.

Edit: This might be a good time to explain exactly why I've been using the term "Whole tobacco alkaloids". In the case of Snus, the tobacco is carefully processed whole tobacco. So the alkaloids derived from snus are then the alkaloid provided by whole tobacco, or "whole tobacco alkaloids". In the case of my extraction and purification procedure used to make the WTA eliquid, my starting material is whole tobacco which I physically and chemically process to extract the entire alkaloid spread, thus like snus, the eliquid contains alkaloids obtained from whole tobacco, or again "whole tobacco alkaloids".

 

[cowfodder]

Well, Ethan from Vapelicio.us got back to me last night:

I just skimmed that thread quickly but maybe I will show up and make some posts next week... You can pass this info on to them for me if you want though:

The WTA is made by a trained chemist. The process is proprietary so I don't plan on sharing it with anyone. There are factors outside of the extraction process that are still being fine tuned, for instance scaling up production to meet industry-wide demand; therefore I haven't gone through rigorous testing for things like TSNA's yet. I expect the product to at least meet the GothiaTek standards (for snus) if not to be eligible for some sort of "reduced exposure" or "modified risk" classification, though the FDA has yet to set guidelines on these. Eventually I will post the results of testing for the 44 "Hoffman analytes" and/or other possible carcinogens listed by IARC. If I had to guess the safety of using WTA eliquid is somewhere in between vaping alone and vaping + using snus.

He doesn't post here due to some things that I'll not go into, but he has been active on a lot of other forums for quite some time.

 

[wrigleyvillain]

Hopefully it's just a matter of time. This whole industry is in it's infancy and evolving rapidly as we all know all too well.

I have been pointing all the "Man, I love vaping but why can't I give up the cigs?" thread posters over this way although we're still pretty short on "answers".