FDA So where is the outcry from the vendors?

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mynewtoy

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But by their own words they cannot make any claims that these devices can improve health, therefore they cannot be medical devices in which case the FDA Has Absolutely No jurisdiction or regulatory authority over them.

I believe the FDA should ensure the purity and content amounts of any nicotine base liquid as that is the ONLY thing in these that could potentially cause any harm at all. In which case it must be regulated at the source, not afterwards when it is added to the device as it should have been regulated prior to being added in which case if they require both they are playing double jeopardy which is illegal.
i agree on the nic. the FDA does regulate medical devices like the patch and nic gum . its just the court already told the FDA in 2009 e=cigs where not medical devices maybe they could regulate them as tobacco and the FDA would be like what do we do now
 
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Elizabeth Baldwin

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i really hope this goes to court and the they tell the FDA it isn't a tobacco product maybe regulate it as medical device:evil::toast::laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh::vapor:

You better hope its not categorized as a medical device. You'd need a prescription to get it. And, if it were a medical device that would have given the FDA grounds on the previous 2009 incident where they confiscated everything ecig related, but the courts ruled negatively towards them stating ecigs were not a medical device and thus they had no control and that they should deem them as a tobacco product.

So... Hope they don't do that. However, according to a previous ruling they can't legally do this.
 

Maurice Pudlo

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I do hope in all reality that the devices we use today, tomorrow, and into the future are dropped from their regulatory ability.

I can see UL listed devices in our future, but FDA regulation is too much reach into the industry. I believe UL has a much better ability to test the workings and safety of vape gear than the FDA.

Maurice
 

coalyard

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Sure it is their business but now it is looking like the freedom to do business as usual is about to come to an end, with regulation comes whole new aspects of doing business. Nobody has a regulation compliance manager on the payroll because there are no regulations to keep up with.

I have some experience with this, having been a certified waste treatment technician for a very large circuit board manufacturing company. This also involved OSHA HAZWOPER standards for hazardous spill and cleanup response. I am used to dealing with government agencies. The amount of paperwork and training to comply with OSHA and EPA (to just name 2) regulations is absolutely astounding. This is something that cannot be an afterthought or done half assed either; trust me when I say that government regulations literally carry a blizzard of items that must be addressed, and addressed in a certain manner to their satisfaction. The penalties for non-compliance are severe.

Officials from OSHA or EPA or FDA don't just show up at your facility to have a cup of coffee and a chat. Compliance requires hours and hours of time and reams of forms and documentation (yes it is still on paper, not computer) as well as extensive training that is ongoing. It's not as simple as slapping a "danger, contains nicotine" or "keep out of reach of children" label on your product. It is difficult to try to express the scope of what is necessary, but let's use the bottles your e-liquid goes into for example.

You must keep records of the vendor you get your bottles from. They must be made of a certain material. They must be stored in a certain manner. They must be handled in a certain manner, and cleaned in equipment that must be maintained a certain way, and use a certain process or chemistry for the cleaning operation. Records must be maintained in a certain way to document all of this. And on and on. As you might well imagine, all of this costs money to do.

If you have never had to deal with government regulatory agencies, the scope and breadth of effort necessary to do so is really difficult to even imagine. When I see people saying that it is good that juice makers will have to adhere to standards, I have to agree with them, but that involves much more than an FDA official showing up at your facility for a look see and saying "Okey dokie, looks clean to me." Bottom line is, this is going to make the price of your juice go up substantially, and put a lot of companies out of business.
 

aubergine

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For those who imagine that small vendor products are somehow less safe than the ones that BT is protecting with this regulatory scam (that's what this is all about) - really? From the folks who bring you Marlboros? You prefer pink slime to a donut baked in your local bakery's ovens? They can't give Monsanto all of our food business (just most of it), too much at stake in the public eye, so regs for food products don't put the little guys out of business, but they surely intend to hand this one to Philip Morris et alia. Prohibitively expensive regs that can only be managed by gigantic corporations are the smart way to go on that one.
Something I need to say, somewhere, so I might as well here, since there's always been some conflating of our issue with general libertarian politics, Obama-bashing and so on in here:
I'm for all sorts of regulations.
I'm not government-phobic.
I want clean air and safe food and worker safety and a nice, firm safety net and all sorts of things that I think need federal oversight to a degree that's anathema to the lively libertarians and right wingers in here. I'm a passionate, active, long-time progressive liberal, and I understand those among us who suspect that the deeply negative spin on this FDA maneuver in ECF is tied to a generalized loathing of all things involving the federal government amongst some of our fellow vapers.
But look again. Corporate overreach is the issue here, and big money and corrupt, powerful profit motive. That one bites right and left. This is about government in bed with big money. That issue isn't owned by the right by a long shot and it's not paranoid doom-crying to recognize and deplore it.

Vendors don't respond effectively to the crisis for several reasons, I think. They fear contributing to a general panic amongst their customers that could hurt business in the (ever diminishing) long run. They won't acknowledge anxiety about the viability of their operation as things unfold for obvious reasons - if Apple is going to fold you switch to PC; if they're all going to fold you seek alternatives to computing. I'm not going to blow $150 on a Provari if I'm going to have to get used to sealed, prefilled cartos on a cigalike from QuikMart in a year or two (a very possible outcome here). Spreading the word that the FDA is going to make it difficult for vapers plays one way in here, but for the general public, including new/potential vapers, it seriously undercuts the perceived advantages of switching over if it looks like e-cigs will be difficult to obtain (seriously, how many of us would have switched if we'd had to purchase on a black market, or thought that we might someday have to?), are frowned upon by Many Doctors and the Guardians of the Nation's Health (sic), and/or are relatively ineffective, expensive items manufactured by the largely loathed and mistrusted big tobacco industry? And vendors as political advocates aren't going to be trusted - there's a little conflict of interest problem.
But mostly I think many of our vendors are as new to this tricky little document and as confused as many in here. Human nature denies painful eventualities for as long as possible. They're hanging out with their fingers crossed at this point; I don't really much blame them.
But that's the intent.
 
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Gato del Jugo

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Here's some outcry from Velvet Cloud Vapor, which makes e-liquid...


This has been at the top of their site for a couple weeks now..

SALE: 25% off!! Use code sayNOAB1500 at checkout! Ends Monday! & Say No to NOAB1500

That last sentence is also a link to CASAA's Call to Action..

CASAA: Call to Action! California Ban on Internet Sales (AB 1500) and Ban on E-Cigarette Usage (SB 648)


In addition to some stuff on their Facebook, if you're subscribed to their email list, you would have received this email the day after the FDA proposal came out...


Don't let the FDA take e-cigs away!‏


The FDA has spoken

So here is a last reminder & a discount...

The battle is going to be long and tough. Luckily we have a little more time with the FDA than we do with the state of California. So here is a last word on California's proposed legislation - it's going to be a fight. So is taking on the FDA. So, get ready - because what we do here today... how much we kick, scream and shout - will affect history, and the future of vaping as we know it. This is a seminal moment in our history.

We're giving you 25% off today to raise some awareness and funds to fight! The checkout code is sayNOAB1500 , please use it at checkout at VelvetCloudVapor.com. Unfortunately, the California legislature may just end our ability to sell or buy e-liquid or vaping supplies online. If you head to our site and take part in this sale, you'll notice a banner at the top of the site. If you live in California, please consider clicking the banner and taking action. We will organize against this. Without internet competition and choice, you - the end user - will be harmed. We need to fight.

We're hereby dedicating a large portion of all our proceeds to fighting for your right to vape. More details coming up soon, but we will begin advert campaigns and lobbying missions to Washington D.C. to make sure your voice is heard.

- Team Velvet Cloud

Remember: apply 'sayNOAB1500' at checkout to save 25%. Offer available to everyone, but Californians we beg you to take action and write your legislature!
 

wv2win

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The thing you must keep in mind is that the media being paid puppets for the most part will spin any and all shout outs by vendors in a negative manor. You surely must know this to be fact. That is why I presume many have also kept their actions on this matter quiet.

Also many of the reputable vendors are probably double checking their facilities to ensure they are also up to standards so they can keep in business.

Every vendor should (and should have years ago), at the least, be encouraging their customers to join and support CASAA, which is the "consumer" vaping organization. This minimal action would at least direct their customers to a non-profit organization which could enlighten them on the issues with little to no effort on the vendor's part. Very few vendors do this, which is just plain short-sighted and ignorant.

Second, your comment about vendors keeping their facilities "up to standard" to stay in business (thus not having time to get involved), makes little sense and "begs reality". From reading the proposed regulations and listening to experts in the field explain the effect of these regulations, most suppliers "facilities" could be minted in gold and they would still be put out of business, as is easily understood by the FDA's Economic Impact Analysis.
 

wv2win

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..................................

I want clean air and safe food and worker safety and a nice, firm safety net and all sorts of things that I think need federal oversight to a degree that's anathema to the lively libertarians and right wingers in here.

I'm a passionate, active, long-time progressive liberal, ..................................................

I'm not a progressive liberal, but I also believe in reasonable safety nets in our society. But it is progressive liberalism, and the politicians that it elects, that has brought us to this devastating point in the vaping community, as well as other mandates effecting our lives negatively. Certain corporate entities wanting to crush their competition, are adept in supporting liberal politicians and their zealous over-reach, when it works in their favor. The probable destruction of the vaping community, as we know it, is the result of electing too many zealots to run the country.
 
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Devonmoonshire

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Every vendor should (and should have years ago), at the least, be encouraging their customers to join and support CASAA, which is the "consumer" vaping organization. This minimal action would at least direct their customers to a non-profit organization which could enlighten them on the issues with little to no effort on the vendor's part. Very few vendors do this, which is just plain short-sighted and ignorant.

Second, your comment about vendors keeping their facilities "up to standard" to stay in business (thus not having time to get involved), makes little sense and "begs reality". From reading the proposed regulations and listening to experts in the field explain the effect of these regulations, most suppliers "facilities" could be minted in gold and they would still be put out of business, as is easily understood by the FDA's Economic Impact Analysis.

That all may be true, but I have noticed one thing in the past few days, the media has pretty much dropped it all together, I don't think I have seen anything about it in the past four days or more. That could mean that one of two things has happened:

1: The big news agencies have realized just how many folks use them and watch their channels and their ratings went down when they were spouting their garbage about kids so they stopped doing it to bring ratings back up.

Or

2: Someone has told them to stop because the more they shed light on it, the wiser spread the word is of what the FDA is trying which they KNOW will bring more opposition to them so they want to try and keep it quiet so they can sneak it in under the radar.

The FDA is in the Crosshairs of the public right now and they know it.
 

aubergine

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I'm not a progressive liberal, but I also believe in reasonable safety nets in our society. But it is progressive liberalism, and the politicians that it elects, that has brought us to this devastating point in the vaping community, as well as other mandates effecting our lives negatively. Certain corporate entities are adept at joining with liberal politicians in their zealous over-reach, to maintain their profits at the expense of certain segments of the population. The probable destruction of the vaping community, as we know it, is the result of electing too many zealots to run the country.

I disagree with most of that. Vehemently. Which is not to the point.
My point was that comments like that are divisive in here, and to take the bait and argue it with you, which I most certainly could, would be counter-productive.
I guess no way to get you guys to give it a rest, oh well.
 

Devonmoonshire

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Aubergine I agree whole heartedly that given the nature of Nicotine which is generally accepted even by the FDA as "Relatively Safe" it has the potential to cause great harm as it is a strong stimulant. Does anyone else here remember a few years back when a batch of nicotine base was mislabeled and contained a LOT more nicotine than it was labeled as containing?

Some sort of quality control does in fact need to be placed on the nicotine content of liquids. The problem is that the regulatory "Authority" has taken it entirely too far with these proposed regulations. They have their hands in it entirely too far trying to take entirely too much control over the industry as a whole. Which is the primary reason why I oppose it with every fiber of my being.

Just as caffeine can cause a heart attack and death in too high of quantities, nicotine can do the same thing. Therefore some sort of responsible controls must be put in place to maintain a level of safety and accountability.

Those regulations however MUST NOT become cost prohibitive nor be so strict that they completely eradicate the industry due to inability to conform to them.

They way they are written now in layman's terms states basically "If You Can't Afford to pay the FDA then you will leave, which leaves our Pharmaceutical industries and Big Tobacco in charge of this industry because we know they are the only ones that can afford to pay us".

That is the big problem, not that we are getting regulation, but that the regulation they are proposing is entirely out of balance in favor of Large Industry Conglomerates.
 

aubergine

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Dev, I didn't actually say anything about a need to regulate nicotine one way or the other and support nothing beyond mandating simple labeling and childproofing.

I think it's self-regulating (no fun to OD; no one eats cigarettes and people take their own chances on smoking them - and they're demonstrably deadly). Ecigs are pretty benign and health benefits far outweigh percieved risks.

How-much and how-many should be a matter of consumer self-regulation IMHO.

We libs don't really want everything controlled, it's a myth - one of many. Absolutely agree on the rest - it's not only overreach, it's nothing to do with anyone's good health and everything to do with big biz.
 
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Devonmoonshire

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Dev, I didn't actually say anything about a need to regulate nicotine one way or the other. I think it's self-regulating (no fun to OD; no one eats cigarettes and people take their own chances on smoking them - and they're demonstrably deadly). Ecigs are pretty benign and how-much and how-many should be a matter of consumer self-regulation IMHO.
We libs don't really want everything controlled, it's a myth - one of many. Absolutely agree on the rest - it's not only overreach, it's nothing to do with anyone's good health and everything to do with big biz.

LOL Yeah I am not really into the whole Libiatarian, Conspermative, Political thing because I think both are crooked in their own ways. I think there needs to be a balanced agreement to the objective of both parties. Mutual Benefit must be attained at some point or the whole house comes down like so many Popsicle Sticks.

Big Business and Corporations are all about POWER. We all know power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. In these regulations FDA is attempting to gain Absolute Power over the vaping industry which will corrupt it absolutely.
 

Devonmoonshire

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Just as vaping has been attacked & smeared for years, I have no qualms with anybody & everybody attacking & smearing the FDA at this point..

And unlike them, we actually have the truth on our side...

More than just Truth, I have my Medical Record which is irrefutable PROOF that Vaping has done immense things for my health. It shows that in 2009 I was diagnosed with borderline COPD with Lung Function at 88%. It also shows that 6 months after I started vaping my lung function was back to 98-100%. That is Undeniable Fact.
 
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wv2win

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That all may be true, but I have noticed one thing in the past few days, the media has pretty much dropped it all together, I don't think I have seen anything about it in the past four days or more. That could mean that one of two things has happened:

1: The big news agencies have realized just how many folks use them and watch their channels and their ratings went down when they were spouting their garbage about kids so they stopped doing it to bring ratings back up.

Or

2: Someone has told them to stop because the more they shed light on it, the wiser spread the word is of what the FDA is trying which they KNOW will bring more opposition to them so they want to try and keep it quiet so they can sneak it in under the radar.

The FDA is in the Crosshairs of the public right now and they know it.

It's definitely not your #1 above. #2 is more probable but I doubt that, also. More likely, the FDA is coordinating with the liberal politicians who have been calling for a ban for several years and the liberal media, to do a series of media stories extolling how they are protecting the ignorant public from the many dangers posed by vaping. They have done a pretty good job this last 12 months combined with the liberal national politicians and the media who supports them.
 

catilley1092

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Other than a warning as to being 18 or older on most vendor's sites, I've noticed few warnings (mainly that nicotine is poisonous & addictive) & only one link to join CASSA to fight for our rights.

However, my personal distributor gave me a handout on day one & encouraged me to join, telling me that new rules may put them out of business. Mainly in part to new taxes & regulation.

It would be great for the government to just come clean & tell the truth. That smoking is on the decline, which has resulted in less taxes collected. Which in turn threatens social programs (such as Medicaid funding) & other special interests that politicians has created over the years.

Instead, there has been a propaganda campaign launched, using a few isolated incidents as fuel, to drive fear in the masses.

This is all a cover to collect taxes, plain & simple. Why don't they just say so?

Cat
 
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