So You Quit the Stinkers - But are you still hooked on Nicotine?

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SmokinRabbit

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Got my eRoll today and it's fabulous. The way Rocky Mountain Vapor sells the kit is the way it should have been from the beginning.

Been using juice with low nicotine today (6mg) and it's definitely easier to avoid the tobacco smokes now. I'll stick with this until I'm off the analogs completely, then I'll work on reducing the nicotine.

Hoping to be rid of tobacco for good in the next week. Wish me luck. :)
 

AndriaD

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Got my eRoll today and it's fabulous. The way Rocky Mountain Vapor sells the kit is the way it should have been from the beginning.

Been using juice with low nicotine today (6mg) and it's definitely easier to avoid the tobacco smokes now. I'll stick with this until I'm off the analogs completely, then I'll work on reducing the nicotine.

Hoping to be rid of tobacco for good in the next week. Wish me luck. :)

That was exactly how I quit back in Feb, using an eRoll with 6mg Virginia. It was only after I quit that I found I actually needed just a little more -- 9mg for a while, but lately I've been using 10mg and a bit of WTA, because quitting the 2nd time really was harder; I want to make sure this really "sticks." Also I heard that the WTA could help with the depression at the 3wk and 3mo points, and I had that pretty bad my first go-round, so I figured it was worth trying to avoid having it again.

Hang tough! :thumbs:

Andria
 

Alien Traveler

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I am a bit confused about how much nicotine is inhaled smoking a real cig and how the correlates when using an e-cig?

Like one cigarette contains how many mg's of nic?
1 ml of say 24mg nic would equal how much nic intake or how many real cigs?

1 cigarette deliver into smoker’s body about 1 mg of nicotine.
As I learned from ECF about one half of nicotine content is absorbed into body.
So, 1 ml of 24 mg juice is equivalent (very approximately) to 12 cigarettes. Looks too high, lets decrease it by half:), then we get 6 cigarettes.
 

coalyard

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Rick,

No, I'm not missing the point. I readily admit I may need to add some nicotine to my juice to help get off the cigarettes. Point is though, I don't want to add MORE nicotine, nor do I want to indefinitely be hooked on it. I don't want to "need" vaping the way I need smoking... I'm talking the physical addiction part of it.

I think we all are well educated at this point on the dangers of cigarettes, so no point rehashing it. Maybe we could debate the dangers of nicotine, but I'm already pretty firmly in the camp that believes it's not good for us. It's the lesser of evils to just have that and PG/VG juice, but it's still an addictive substance I'd like to be off of eventually.

If you are firmly in the camp that believes nicotine is harmful, please provide links to evidence or scientific studies that it actually is harmful. Inquiring minds want to know, and all that.
 

SmokinRabbit

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Here's the problem. Anything I say or quote or link to, you're going to dismiss it anyway as outdated, and invalid source or media hype. This argument could go on forever. And of course, when you try to look up nicotine health effects now, you get tons of results from the ecig industry (and users)... Which isn't exactly objective (as I stated earlier).

But sure, here's on example... Just so you don't say I'm being uncooperative.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/9110108/

I'm not interested in arguing with you. As I also stated earlier, we are a camp of justifiers.... That's how we kept up smoking for so long to begin with.... And I include myself in that camp, just to be clear.
 

AndriaD

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Here's the problem. Anything I say or quote or link to, you're going to dismiss it anyway as outdated, and invalid source or media hype. This argument could go on forever. And of course, when you try to look up nicotine health effects now, you get tons of results from the ecig industry (and users)... Which isn't exactly objective (as I stated earlier).

But sure, here's on example... Just so you don't say I'm being uncooperative.
Nicotine and sympathetic neurotransmiss - PubMed Mobile

I'm not interested in arguing with you. As I also stated earlier, we are a camp of justifiers.... That's how we kept up smoking for so long to begin with.... And I include myself in that camp, just to be clear.


Ok, you're right, there are stimulant effects, which we all know about. But, how are they different from the stimulant effect of caffeine? It's true that caffeine is troublesome for some, especially those with heart/cardiovascular issues, and for myself, caffeine in excess contributes to dehydration, by virtue of its diuretic effect... but it's considered a "safe drug," and is *put in* a great many soft drinks and OTC medications. How is nicotine any worse?

Andria
 

SmokinRabbit

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Ok, you're right, there are stimulant effects, which we all know about. But, how are they different from the stimulant effect of caffeine? It's true that caffeine is troublesome for some, especially those with heart/cardiovascular issues, and for myself, caffeine in excess contributes to dehydration, by virtue of its diuretic effect... but it's considered a "safe drug," and is *put in* a great many soft drinks and OTC medications. How is nicotine any worse?

Andria

Not arguing it's better or worse than caffeine. All I've said is that we shouldn't pretend it's healthy, and I personally, don't want to end up addicted to MORE of it via e-cigarettes.

FYI: I gave up caffeine over 10 years ago. :)
 

Bob Chill

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Here's the problem. Anything I say or quote or link to, you're going to dismiss it anyway as outdated, and invalid source or media hype. This argument could go on forever. And of course, when you try to look up nicotine health effects now, you get tons of results from the ecig industry (and users)... Which isn't exactly objective (as I stated earlier).

But sure, here's on example... Just so you don't say I'm being uncooperative.
Nicotine and sympathetic neurotransmiss - PubMed Mobile

I'm not interested in arguing with you. As I also stated earlier, we are a camp of justifiers.... That's how we kept up smoking for so long to begin with.... And I include myself in that camp, just to be clear.

Yes, nicotine is very similar to the effects of caffeine. People with chronic high blood pressure or coronary disease should definitely avoid it. There is no doubt it's a stimulant and does affect blood pressure among other things.

I don't disagree that long term nicotine use doesn't come with some risk. The amount of risk does appear to be quite small. I think some of the beauty of nicotine and caffeine is that they are naturally occurring plant chemicals. There is little if any proof that long term use of either causes chronic conditions. They both quickly leave your body when you stop ingesting them. However, they do negatively affect health when certain chronic conditions are present.

I'm personally totally ok with the risk. And I also applaud anyone who's end goal is remove nicotine consumption from their life. If your end goal is to remove nicotine from your life then I think that's pretty awesome. And choosing to do it by first quitting cigs completely with ecigs and then dropping is a great way to go. You don't have to suffer through the cold turkey effects or the completely unsatisfying NRT method.
 

AndriaD

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I've given it up many times, but unfortunately the hot tea I really prefer tastes best in its original form; decaffeinating it just removes all of its wonderful aroma. So I've had to limit myself to 2 cups of that per day, and switch to decaf iced tea for the rest of the day.

I don't think there's any danger of being *dependent* (not addicted) to nicotine worse than you were with cigarettes; for one thing, the body cannot absorb nicotine well from vapor, and at 6mg, your body is actually getting very little nicotine. And secondly, nicotine, in the absence of all those other chemicals, is really not "addictive"; they've never been able to induce dependence on nicotine in anyone who wasn't previously addicted to tobacco. Many find that after they've vaped for a while, they can take it or leave it. Most probably still continue with it, but in the instances in which they can't use it, for whatever reason, they don't feel overwrought about it, as they would have, with cigarettes, and to a certain extent, I can validate that myself -- after being stuck in an e-room for more than 4 hrs, I finally did vape, because I could, but I know for a fact that being in there for more than ONE HOUR, when I was a smoker, would have had me climbing the walls.

Nicotine *dependence* is a very different animal than *tobacco addiction*. The first thing to worry about is getting free of the tobacco addiction -- THEN you can worry about the nicotine dependence, because it will not hurt you nearly as badly as tobacco addiction -- they say it's about 100 times less harmful -- which may be a very conservative estimate of how much less harmful it is.

Andria
 

Amraann

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1 cigarette deliver into smoker’s body about 1 mg of nicotine.
As I learned from ECF about one half of nicotine content is absorbed into body.
So, 1 ml of 24 mg juice is equivalent (very approximately) to 12 cigarettes. Looks too high, lets decrease it by half:), then we get 6 cigarettes.

Thanks for explaining!!!
 

Bob Chill

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Thanks for explaining!!!

Equipment and the way you vape plays a big role as well. Vaping 1ml from a basic tank is a lot different than a dripper or kayfun. I can't vape 10-12 through my drippers and kayfuns so I go 5-6 and it seem to give me about the exact same effect as 10-12 in protanks and such.

Slowly filling your mouth followed by a shallow inhale and slow roll exhale out of your nose seems to be much more efficient than doing a direct inhale and quick exhale out of your mouth.

From what I read, the molecules in vapor are too big to get absorbed when deep in the lungs. Most of it is done in the mouth, throat, and nasal passages. With having such a wide variety of gear and then having different styles of individual use makes the accuracy of any straight math pretty muddy.
 

rolygate

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I am a bit confused about how much nicotine is inhaled smoking a real cig and how the correlates when using an e-cig?

Like one cigarette contains how many mg's of nic?
1 ml of say 24mg nic would equal how much nic intake or how many real cigs?

The problem with trying to create a numerical equivalency between cigarettes and ecig refill liquid (nic strengths) is that it just doesn't work. This is probably because we don't have all the data we need to construct an accurate calculation - leaving aside the fact that since there is a difference in nicotine tolerance between individuals of a factor of 10, such a calculation would not be individually accurate in any case. In other words, we might eventually be able to calculate that equivalent, but it would have limited application to an individual, since what suits you could easily be 5 times too strong or too weak for me.

There are so many variables in such a calculation that it becomes pointless even when the exact figures are known (and currently we are a long way off that point anyway). For example, the average nicotine transfer of hardware is well-demonstrated as 50% - but what if your rig has a 10% transfer efficiency? Or an 80% efficiency? Both are possible, and would remove any accuracy in the calculation. Then, we have to consider the known and the unknown unknowns: because we can clearly see from plasma nic measurements that pure nic works about 33% to 40% better than smoked nic, there must be at least one unknown in the mix.

For example, a known unknown is the difference in the biovailability of cigarette smoke nicotine and ecig vapor nicotine: we cannot just assume it is the same when delivered in smoke or in a water-based aerosol. There may also be unknown unknowns: things we don't know that we don't know.

Alien Traveller's post at #125 could well be about right since the numbers don't look correct even when we add in the one factor that we do know. However it's worth keeping in mind that cigarette nicotine strengths are continually falling, so a cig could well deliver 0.6mg nic at this time. This would mean the cigarette-delivered nic figure might need reducing by nearly half. And user profile affects it too (do you smoke the entire tobacco content? Do you draw heavily or lightly? Do you suck it in deep or puff it shallow?) :)

Essentially, all we know currently is that:

1. With current data it is impossible to accurately calculate a cigarette-to-ecig nicotine equivalency.

2. Users self-titrate (adjust it themselves) so that they get the desired effect. In effect it doesn't matter anyway.

3. When plasma nic levels are measured, we find that dual-user vapers when vaping measure about 33% to 40% less nic than when smoking. They get the same effect with significantly less (measurable) nicotine, apparently.

4. A calculation wouldn't be much use anyway, except perhaps as an average, because:
a) Vapers have a factor-10 difference in individual tolerance to nicotine - some can't over-vape 6mg, and some need 60mg to avoid relapse. 60mg would be really nasty for the 6mg vapers; but the high-strength vapers can't even feel 36mg.
b) Each vaper varies in nicotine tolerance over time in any case: people usually find they need less and less, as their smoking history recedes into the past.


Too many unknowns. Just do what feels right :)
 

Alien Traveler

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From what I read, the molecules in vapor are too big to get absorbed when deep in the lungs. Most of it is done in the mouth, throat, and nasal passages.

It looks very… let’s say strange for me. Could you supply some links? I am really interested in how “big molecules” can affect nicotine absorption. And how come they are not absorbed by lungs…
 

Bob Chill

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It looks very… let’s say strange for me. Could you supply some links? I am really interested in how “big molecules” can affect nicotine absorption. And how come they are not absorbed by lungs…

It's been discussed around the forum for years. I'm sure someone will chime in with specifics. The short story is vapor molecules are liquid and smoke is fine particulate. There's a big difference in size and liquid gets absorbed much more efficiently with the soft tissues of the mouth, throat, and nose vs deep in lungs.Nicotine doesn't pass through into the blood very well deep in the lungs in contrast to smoke which is extremely fast. It's part of the reason that nic delivery through vapor is a good bit slower than smoking.
 
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Alien Traveler

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3. When plasma nic levels are measured, we find that dual-user vapers when vaping measure about 33% to 40% less nic than when smoking. They get the same effect with significantly less (measurable) nicotine, apparently.

It was measured after only 5 minutes of smoking or vaping, cumulative effect is not really known. It was never measured for prolonged durations. Most vapers vape for much (and I mean – much!) longer times during a day than smokers smoke. So, for some vapers nicotine consumption is much higher than it was when they smoked.

Too many unknowns. Just do what feels right :)

!
 
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