Sore throat - is it harsh flavors / too much flavoring related?

[stols001]

I don't think there's a universal percentage but I can tell you there are plenty of DW vapers vaping at 10% flavoring or below, and some that vape higher, I know one person on the DIY board who started at 20% and went to 15% (and I think there are others) and that person had the same rationale, that they couldn't taste their juices. Flavor Art (I think someone may correct me) and a few other brands tend to have a stronger flavor than some of the other brands. It might be worth trying those stronger flavors to see if you can lower your flavoring percentage (at least the PG part) overall.

IDK though, as far as sensitivities everyone is different. I will say I started higher on flavorings and sweetener in DIY than I do now since my tastebuds grew back and I got away from commercial stuff. It's kind of a process.

One good thing about finding your base first is it may give your tastebuds time to "recover" from flavoring, and by that I mean once you start adding flavor in you may taste it more strongly than you are now.

I'm sorry I wish it were less complicated for you but I do genuinely believe that you will be able to, with some experiments, find a base and flavors that work well for you DL vaping.

Anna

 

[Topwater Elvis]

Just thinking out loud, maybe your long term inability to taste flavors is somehow related to your sore throat.

Have you been to an ENT (ear nose & throat) doctor to rule out medical reasons / a long term undiagnosed condition?

We both use those previously mentioned %'s with airy MTL.

I've never seen any need to increase flavoring %'s due to inhalation style or airflow, high Vg yes, but not in the realm of 15 - 20% flavorings.
I understand everyones sense of smell & taste are different and Vg mutes flavors, neither my wife or I can stand to vape anything over 10% for more than a few vapes per day. Sensory overload renders everything vaped afterwords flat & tasteless.

With changing to DTL you are most definitely taking in much more everything per hit, not unusual to build up an intolerance to things over time, especially when increasing intake.

 

[Letitia]

Yeah i thought so, but what should my target percentage be for dtl vaping?

Just reduce flavors across the board for the mixes you already enjoy. No target percentage is necessary, just balance. Easiest way imo is just mix 15ml with a .5 reduction as stated above. You could also add some vg to something you already have mixed.

 

[tara81]

Doctor thinks I have a virus. But he took a swab in case. He said one of my inner ears appeared red. I don't feel anything wrong with my ears. But I think he is right, 2 days without a vape and my throat still feels abit raw. Gosh what a long sore throat virus. I never had a sore throat this long before without it being strep throat. Usually when I catch something, I get a sore throat for 1-2 days max, then come the congestion and other cold symptoms. I don't feel overly tired or anything. This virus has me fooled. I decided to add some vg to my mixes, making them 80 vg/ 20 pg and lowering the flavoring percent by maybe 2-3 % . I'll try them soon , once my throat is a little better.

I really hope doctor is right , and its not to do with pg.

 

[Letitia]

Doctor thinks I have a virus. But he took a swab in case. He said one of my inner ears appeared red. I don't feel anything wrong with my ears. But I think he is right, 2 days without a vape and my throat still feels abit raw. Gosh what a long sore throat virus. I never had a sore throat this long before without it being strep throat. Usually when I catch something, I get a sore throat for 1-2 days max, then come the congestion and other cold symptoms. I don't feel overly tired or anything. This virus has me fooled. I decided to add some vg to my mixes, making them 80 vg/ 20 pg and lowering the flavoring percent by maybe 2-3 % . I'll try them soon , once my throat is a little better.

I really hope doctor is right , and its not to do with pg.

Don't forget to disassemble your tanks and give them good cleaning.

 

[cigarbabe]

Can the majority of vapors vape DTL high wattage (60-100 watts) with 20% flavors no problem? I just thought maybe I was using too much flavoring. I like to add a lot of flavors ... I adapt others recipes and add more ........ No idea why .. well mainly to get easier strawberry flavor with some, I add 3 strawberry so it doesn't fade

I vape all flavors without any issues but I use 18-56mg nic and you don't use nic.
Vanilla can irritate the throat as Anna said.
I would bet it is the high wattage and mesh coils.
C.B.

 

[stols001]

I hope it's a virus, and yeah, don't reinfect yourself, as Letitia pointed out, in case it's bacterial. I rarely wish illness on anyone but in this case it seems merited, LOL.

Anna

 

[IDJoel]

what should my target percentage be for dtl vaping?

Whatever tastes best for you. I know; I hate that answer too! But, there really is a lot of truth in it. There just isn't "one best" percentage/target for all recipes. There are just too many variables.

Besides different flavor manufactures, each flavor concentrate made by that manufacturer, will have its own sweet spot for you. Then, add in what other ingredients, you want to combine with it. Now, look at your hardware set-up (wick, wire, power/temp, airflow, and shape). It is no wonder we all taste something different!

Then there is the whole issue, of what our own taste buds can taste, and how we treat them. Those still smoking, or just recently quit; are likely to taste very little. I haven't smoked since 2012; but am still very abusive to my taste buds. I like strong coffee, the occasional alcoholic beverage, and strong spicy foods. All of which put a real strain on being any sort of super taster. Therefore; I usually like a bit more flavoring than most.

I say all that; to offer this in answer to your question. In the broadest of terms (and still not always true) DTL does require less flavoring than MTL for most(?) DIYers. But, that "how much less;" is solely dependent on the individual (and all the variables mentioned above) vaping the mix.

I know; still not any help.

@Letitia has given you a good/great suggestion on how to figure what is right for you. Take a recipe, that you are very familiar with (and like); and start reducing it until you are using the minimum amount of flavor and still getting the taste you like. The secret to changing a good recipe, and keeping it tasting "good," is to keep the ratios (of one concentrate, to all the other concentrates) the same.

The easiest way (that I can think of) is to make a flavor base. A flavor base is nothing more than all your flavor concentrates (for a particular recipe) combined as usual; without adding any PG, VG, or nic (which you don't use). Then, you can use that mixture as a custom concentrate, and make a bunch of varying percentage testers, and not have to worry about figuring out individual measurements for each and every one.

So, in other words; I have a recipe I know I liked at 20%, when vaping MTL. I mix up a flavor base for that recipe; by combining all the flavor concentrate ingredients. Now, I use this custom concentrate, and mix up six 5mL testers; using this concentrate at 20%, 18%, 16%, 14%, 12%, and 10%. This gives me a baseline (the original I know I liked as an MTL vape) tester (the 20% mix), and 5 additional testers, going all the way to half the original mix, to see what works best for me. And, other than adding PG and VG, I am only mixing once. Fast and easy; and can easily be done in a single sitting!

I hope that wasn't too confusing. Does that make sense?

(NOTE: in the above example, to make six 5mL testers (30mL total), I would need a minimum of 15mL-worth of the combined concentrates. So, to give me a little extra breathing room; I (personally) would mix 20mL-worth. In other words; set your calculator (for the original recipe) to "make" a 20mL batch, and combine that amount of the flavor concentrates to make your flavor base. That should produce enough, of the custom concentrate, without having an ridiculous amount left over.)

 

[DeloresRose]

Can the majority of vapors vape DTL high wattage (60-100 watts) with 20% flavors no problem? I just thought maybe I was using too much flavoring. I like to add a lot of flavors ... I adapt others recipes and add more ........ No idea why .. well mainly to get easier strawberry flavor with some, I add 3 strawberry so it doesn't fade

Can’t speak for anyone but me, but no, I can’t. I go 12% on some multi flavor juices, but that’s the top end for dl for me. I also can’t do more than 25% pg, including flavors ( which are mostly pg based). For my mtl, I can go higher but have no need.

I think Anna hit on something too, about the alcohol in some flavors. I have a few, and those steep open for a few days before I can vape them.

 

[Letitia]

Whatever tastes best for you. I know; I hate that answer too! But, there really is a lot of truth in it. There just isn't "one best" percentage/target for all recipes. There are just too many variables.

Besides different flavor manufactures, each flavor concentrate made by that manufacturer, will have its own sweet spot for you. Then, add in what other ingredients, you want to combine with it. Now, look at your hardware set-up (wick, wire, power/temp, airflow, and shape). It is no wonder we all taste something different!

Then there is the whole issue, of what our own taste buds can taste, and how we treat them. Those still smoking, or just recently quit; are likely to taste very little. I haven't smoked since 2012; but am still very abusive to my taste buds. I like strong coffee, the occasional alcoholic beverage, and strong spicy foods. All of which put a real strain on being any sort of super taster. Therefore; I usually like a bit more flavoring than most.

I say all that; to offer this in answer to your question. In the broadest of terms (and still not always true) DTL does require less flavoring than MTL for most(?) DIYers. But, that "how much less;" is solely dependent on the individual (and all the variables mentioned above) vaping the mix.

I know; still not any help.

@Letitia has given you a good/great suggestion on how to figure what is right for you. Take a recipe, that you are very familiar with (and like); and start reducing it until you are using the minimum amount of flavor and still getting the taste you like. The secret to changing a good recipe, and keeping it tasting "good," is to keep the ratios (of one concentrate, to all the other concentrates) the same.

The easiest way (that I can think of) is to make a flavor base. A flavor base is nothing more than all your flavor concentrates (for a particular recipe) combined as usual; without adding any PG, VG, or nic (which you don't use). Then, you can use that mixture as a custom concentrate, and make a bunch of varying percentage testers, and not have to worry about figuring out individual measurements for each and every one.

So, in other words; I have a recipe I know I liked at 20%, when vaping MTL. I mix up a flavor base for that recipe; by combining all the flavor concentrate ingredients. Now, I use this custom concentrate, and mix up six 5mL testers; using this concentrate at 20%, 18%, 16%, 14%, 12%, and 10%. This gives me a baseline (the original I know I liked as an MTL vape) tester (the 20% mix), and 5 additional testers, going all the way to half the original mix, to see what works best for me. And, other than adding PG and VG, I am only mixing once. Fast and easy; and can easily be done in a single sitting!

I hope that wasn't too confusing. Does that make sense?

(NOTE: in the above example, to make six 5mL testers (30mL total), I would need a minimum of 15mL-worth of the combined concentrates. So, to give me a little extra breathing room; I (personally) would mix 20mL-worth. In other words; set your calculator (for the original recipe) to "make" a 20mL batch, and combine that amount of the flavor concentrates to make your flavor base. That should produce enough, of the custom concentrate, without having an ridiculous amount left over.)

If you use the elr calculator the tool has an option for one shot concentrate. Just enter 20ml.

 

[tara81]

Thanks so much guys for your tips ! Once my throat feels better I'll start adjusting ! Does anyone know if any of my flavorings have alcohol in them ? ELR doesn't seem to tell you ? Or maybe I missed it

 

[IDJoel]

Does anyone know if any of my flavorings have alcohol in them ?

Short answer? Yes, some of your concentrates contain ethyl alcohol (aka. EA, alcohol, PGA/pure grain alcohol). Which ones? That is going to take some research, and that is still kind of sketchy.

EA is used often, because of it's ability to carry (or suspend) certain molecules/compounds better than water, PG, or VG. So it is there for a purpose, and why you don't try to get rid of it in your concentrates. Once it is diluted into a mix/recipe, its importance goes away; and many will "breathe" (allow the fresh mix to sit uncovered (no cap, or drip tip) for a time.

How much time is another question all together. While breathing a fresh mix helps to allow unwanted elements (mainly EA) to escape; it also allows some wanted elements to escape, that can be beneficial to the overall flavor and aroma. These volatile compounds are often responsible for the more aromatic "fresh" notes it a mix. (side note: heating a mix also "cooks" these aromatic notes off faster) Generally speaking; flavors like lemon, and strawberry are often very susceptible to this kind of flavor loss.

To make matters worse; even though EA may not be used as a general carrier, for the overall concentrate (and sometimes included on the label's ingredients list); it may still be present as a carrier for individual compounds making up the concentrate. Here is just one example from TFA (Bavarian Cream):

Note that both the vanillin, and Maltol, are using an Ethyl carrier.

So, practically, what can be done? Well, one could air out/breathe everything and just accept any associated flavor loss. Or, vape a small amount of a untried fresh mix, and look for tell-tales.

Alcohol will give a kind of harsh "boozy," almost chemically, note to a mix. Think of what a sip of cheap liquor tastes like. If I get that, then (depending on the batch size); I might breathe it for 3(ish) hours, or longer as needed. Rarely, do I find a mix needing more than 6-8 hours.

Truthfully, the majority of recipes I like, will naturally dissipate any EA after a week or two, without any actual breathing. This can vary from mixer, to mixer; based on personal sensitivity; and bottle composition. If you are mixing and aging in glass; it is harder for the EA to escape, than if you were aging in a plastic bottle. Likewise; a bottle filled to the brim, will "hold on to" the EA longer, than a bottle that has a few mLs worth of air left at the top.

ELR doesn't seem to tell you ? Or maybe I missed it

You haven't missed it. I am not aware of any thorough listing for EA presence. TFA is probably one of the most transparent manufacturers, that I am aware of; and even on their site, one would have to have a significant chemistry background, or be willing to do a lot of cross referencing... which I am just not willing to do.

So, for me, I like to vape just a small amount of any new (to me) recipe (often 5 or 6 drops is all that is needed), to get an idea of the mix's starting point, and then put it away for a day or 3. Then, I will vape a small amount again, and if it still has that boozy harshness; give it an hour or two, with the cap and dropper tip off. Then, I will cap it, shake it, and put it away again for at least a day. As my new "tester" mixes are only 10-15mL; that has always been long enough. Larger batch sizes may likely require longer.

Side Note: This is purely anecdotal, and only my personal opinion, but...
A lot of what I see blamed on the presence of EA, is more often, caused by the use of too much flavoring. Taste any one of your concentrates (the smallest drop on a fingertip is plenty); and see if you don't get a rather unpleasant chemical-like taste and even harshness. Why, would too much flavoring in an e-liquid, not provide similar results?

Excessively breathing an over-flavored mix, can help soften a poorly formulated recipe, and make it taste better. But, why not just use a more appropriate amount of concentrate to begin with? It is more cost effective; and just plain tastes better... to me, anyway.

 

[tara81]

Short answer? Yes, some of your concentrates contain ethyl alcohol (aka. EA, alcohol, PGA/pure grain alcohol). Which ones? That is going to take some research, and that is still kind of sketchy.

EA is used often, because of it's ability to carry (or suspend) certain molecules/compounds better than water, PG, or VG. So it is there for a purpose, and why you don't try to get rid of it in your concentrates. Once it is diluted into a mix/recipe, its importance goes away; and many will "breathe" (allow the fresh mix to sit uncovered (no cap, or drip tip) for a time.

How much time is another question all together. While breathing a fresh mix helps to allow unwanted elements (mainly EA) to escape; it also allows some wanted elements to escape, that can be beneficial to the overall flavor and aroma. These volatile compounds are often responsible for the more aromatic "fresh" notes it a mix. (side note: heating a mix also "cooks" these aromatic notes off faster) Generally speaking; flavors like lemon, and strawberry are often very susceptible to this kind of flavor loss.

To make matters worse; even though EA may not be used as a general carrier, for the overall concentrate (and sometimes included on the label's ingredients list); it may still be present as a carrier for individual compounds making up the concentrate. Here is just one example from TFA (Bavarian Cream):
View attachment 761741

Note that both the vanillin, and Maltol, are using an Ethyl carrier.

So, practically, what can be done? Well, one could air out/breathe everything and just accept any associated flavor loss. Or, vape a small amount of a untried fresh mix, and look for tell-tales.

Alcohol will give a kind of harsh "boozy," almost chemically, note to a mix. Think of what a sip of cheap liquor tastes like. If I get that, then (depending on the batch size); I might breathe it for 3(ish) hours, or longer as needed. Rarely, do I find a mix needing more than 6-8 hours.

Truthfully, the majority of recipes I like, will naturally dissipate any EA after a week or two, without any actual breathing. This can vary from mixer, to mixer; based on personal sensitivity; and bottle composition. If you are mixing and aging in glass; it is harder for the EA to escape, than if you were aging in a plastic bottle. Likewise; a bottle filled to the brim, will "hold on to" the EA longer, than a bottle that has a few mLs worth of air left at the top.

You haven't missed it. I am not aware of any thorough listing for EA presence. TFA is probably one of the most transparent manufacturers, that I am aware of; and even on their site, one would have to have a significant chemistry background, or be willing to do a lot of cross referencing... which I am just not willing to do.

So, for me, I like to vape just a small amount of any new (to me) recipe (often 5 or 6 drops is all that is needed), to get an idea of the mix's starting point, and then put it away for a day or 3. Then, I will vape a small amount again, and if it still has that boozy harshness; give it an hour or two, with the cap and dropper tip off. Then, I will cap it, shake it, and put it away again for at least a day. As my new "tester" mixes are only 10-15mL; that has always been long enough. Larger batch sizes may likely require longer.

Side Note: This is purely anecdotal, and only my personal opinion, but...
A lot of what I see blamed on the presence of EA, is more often, caused by the use of too much flavoring. Taste any one of your concentrates (the smallest drop on a fingertip is plenty); and see if you don't get a rather unpleasant chemical-like taste and even harshness. Why, would too much flavoring in an e-liquid, not provide similar results?

Excessively breathing an over-flavored mix, can help soften a poorly formulated recipe, and make it taste better. But, why not just use a more appropriate amount of concentrate to begin with? It is more cost effective; and just plain tastes better... to me, anyway.

Thank you for taking the time to explain to me about alcohol in flavors. Anything with ethyl in them, right? Like strawberry ripe, cotton candy? Hard to know of any others , besides you mentioend bavrian cream! I usually try to steep my juices but have nev er let them breathe.

 

[mcclintock]

I had a sore throat this last week from my rewicking not being quite right. Flavor was sometimes off, sometimes good; it was more sensitive to underdripping. That's possible even with a atomizer one is totally familiar with, the chances of great results with something new is almost zero. 95% of atomizers I end up deciding are unusable and set them aside. I normally vape around 16 watts at less than 2% flavor.

I don't know where all these recipes come from with high flavoring, seems like they would have to be old from the days of cigalikes or something. And yet there are still those here that use flavoring levels I can't even see being tolerable. Perhaps the high VG and poor flavor large tanks reduce flavor that much.

Yeah figuring out if it's your base is probably your best bet. There just is not the kind of information you are looking for as to your flavoring mixes. The likelihood of even ONE person vaping those flavor combinations at low and then high wattage is just about 100% nil, and even if someone chimed in and said, "Ooh, yeah, I had a problem with recipe one at low temp but not high temp at your exact ratio," that's not going to help you that much because sensitivities of that sort tend to be highly individual. I can't vape vanillas they make me hoarse. They are also one of the most common ingredients in many recipes.

Try the 90VG 10DW and see if it's less harsh on your throat. It could be the PG at high temperatures.

A FEW flavors are kind of known for irritation like cinnamons, menthol (for some people) maybe citruses.

If you get a base working add in your flavoring slowly and one at a time, which yes, will be a pain, but I really don't think ALL of your mixes are causing you irritation, although again, most flavorings are PG, so if you can't tolerate say, more than 12% PG in a base in your new wattage, well, that is going to mean limiting your flavors to 12% or less of the PG flavors, and there are also some VG flavorings available, or in alcohol bases and whatnot, but they're more limited.

I'd like just try plain for a week and find your best "base" and go from there. Really, it's probably your best bet for figuring out what is going on.

Although it again, could just be your body adjusting to a new way of vaping and warmer vape, I can't stress that enough.

However, if you want to do the elimination diet of vaping, you should, for your own peace of mind if nothing else. It's absolutely horrible whether it's food or vaping but it does actually work.

Anna

A low power device and a high power one shouldn't have any substantial difference of vaporization temperature. If anything, the old style 5W devices ran far hotter with more burning, and that's still a big issue with newer small MTL devices as well. At 50W, that level of burning would be simply intolerable. The vapor output is warmer or seems so because there's so much more of it; unfortunately vapers rarely seem to note the difference between these 2 kinds of heat.

 

[deb51]

Sounds like I am missing lots of fun not doing DIY!But as it's all not allowed here (really) & having to import everything except PG & VG (get from EBay),plus I need Nic in mine!

 

[stols001]

I would probably use IDJoel's method in this instance, it sounds like the quickest way to figure out a sort of "overall flavor percentage" to me, which can help give a sort of general guideline although yes it may vary a bit depending on which flavors, and what manufacturers. But, to get an overall general "what flavoring is right for me" well, IDK it seems like a fairly reasonable starting point that you can at least use as a guide moving forward.

Anna