Sound Off: Is taste purely subjective, or...

[glasseye]

I'm not sure that a person can give a truly objective opinion on something like taste. Objective opinion seems to me to be a contradiction in terms, like jumbo shrimp. We've got to base our opinions on something. Describing taste as sweet, salty, etc. should be widely understood, but things like apple, raisin, tobacco, etc. when talking about how something, in particular an e-liquid, tastes is probably interpreted quite differently. I'm sure we've all experienced what a person thought was an objective opinion, but we thought was...not quite right.

Forgive me Mr. Mann, but I've got to bring up Boba's Bounty and the Boba's clone thread again. lol
I've heard- Raisin Bran, soggy Raisin Bran (definitely what I take as a negative connotation), not sure, love in a bottle, (paraphrasing that last) just to name a few.
The clone thread is most interesting. For those who haven't read it, the recipes go from:
tobacco, cotton candy and coconut to Tobacco, cinnamon danish, graham cracker, cotton candy, cherry and almond.

I do believe that those who posted these recipes are trying to be objective as to the taste. As I have not tried any of the recipes, nor the original BB, I can't say. Taken as a whole, pertaining to that thread, I'd have to say that taste is indeed wildly subjective.
That was only one example, but if I was going to cite another it would be AiV's White Rabbit. What I describe the flavor to be is not what someone who likes it describes it as.

So all of that blahblahblah just means that, overused as it might be, IMO, taste is subjective.

 

[CannedWolf]

Ex1: Member (A) buys a liquid. Member (B) asks how that liquid tastes. Member (A) says "it's gross but you may like it." Did member (B) get the question answered? Some may say yes, but that would only be a technicality in that any response to a question could be construed as an answer.

Ex 2: Member (A) buys a liquid. Member (B) asks how that liquid tastes. Member (A) says "It is semi-sweet, with a chocolate creamy base and a touch of jalapeno like spice. There is a citric like presence--maybe orange?--on the exhale. Member (A) goes onto say, I didn't care for it too much, but that is the best way I can describe it. Did Member (B) get the question answered? I would say yes.

Definitely agree here.

I think part of it is staying 'true' (for lack of a better word) to what the desired outcome of the review/discussion/etc of the flavor is. It really is all about expectations and being able to set the right one from the word go.

What I mean by that is if Member A is asked if they liked the juice, example A above is absolutely correct.

If Member A is writing a review of a juice and is only interested in conveying whether they liked it or not, that is absolutely OK... they just need to say up front " I am going to write this review from my own personal taste preferences" rather than " I am going to describe the flavors". If Member B goes looking for a review and only sees personal preference information, they haven't gained enough information to make their own decision and their expectation of understanding "what does it taste like" hasn't been met.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I'm not sure that a person can give a truly objective opinion on something like taste. Objective opinion seems to me to be a contradiction in terms, like jumbo shrimp. We've got to base our opinions on something. Describing taste as sweet, salty, etc. should be widely understood, but things like apple, raisin, tobacco, etc. when talking about how something, in particular an e-liquid, tastes is probably interpreted quite differently. I'm sure we've all experienced what a person thought was an objective opinion, but we thought was...not quite right.

Forgive me Mr. Mann, but I've got to bring up Boba's Bounty and the Boba's clone thread again. lol
I've heard- Raisin Bran, soggy Raisin Bran (definitely what I take as a negative connotation), not sure, love in a bottle, (paraphrasing that last) just to name a few.
The clone thread is most interesting. For those who haven't read it, the recipes go from:
Tobacco, cotton candy and coconut to Tobacco, cinnamon danish, graham cracker, cotton candy, cherry and almond.

I do believe that those who posted these recipes are trying to be objective as to the taste. As I have not tried any of the recipes, nor the original BB, I can't say. Taken as a whole, pertaining to that thread, I'd have to say that taste is indeed wildly subjective.
That was only one example, but if I was going to cite another it would be AiV's White Rabbit. What I describe the flavor to be is not what someone who likes it describes it as.

So all of that blahblahblah just means that, overused as it might be, IMO, taste is subjective.

Here's the kicker: I love your post and I agree with it except the inclusion of that last line (LOL). I am not saying that it is as simple as sour, sweet and the like, but that being a starting point for the harder work. The Boba's thread is very much people wracking their brains--I won't go into how I feel about what their leaving out--but the point is they are trying. That's all I am asking for. Attempts. Effort. Thoughts. Details. Boba's is Boba's and Boba is Boba, ahem! But, when it comes down to it, when you start saying Boba tastes like The Goddess' kiss? I don't think you'll find a Flavour Art concentrate for that!

Any eliquid being discussed is the object and I am saying though being truly objective about it is quite frankly impossible, trying to be is not.

 

[CannedWolf]

Another thing just occurred to me...

Asking "how does it taste?" isn't the right question. The right question is "what does it taste like?" or "what flavors do you taste?".

Asking "how does it taste?" is like asking "how are you?". It's easy to give a one word answer that doesn't really answer the question. If you asked me "how are you?" and I replied with "fine", yes - I technically answered the question. But you have no more information than you did before asking. However, if you asked me a follow up "what's been going on today?", the door would be open for me to tell you exactly what has been going on.

I think we should change the question we are asking. That shift in language moves the focus from the person's opinion of the flavor to the flavor itself and, I think, helps to remove the subjectivity - I suspect you would see more descriptions of the flavors and less of the "but, taste is subjective" responses.

hhmm... will need to chew on this one for a bit methinks.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Asking "how does it taste?" isn't the right question. The right question is "what does it taste like?" or "what flavors do you taste?".

I was waiting for someone to pick up on that. I have been pondering this for a little while so I wanted that to dangle out there. One time I asked billherbst "how," not what, but how something tasted (I was totally trying to get a response similar to what I got!) Dig this:

Yeah, we all have our own codes that need to be unlocked, but 555 is not the right combination for me...unless it has Exotic at the end of it.

How does Black Label 555 taste, outside of it being less 555 tasting? I would also like to know how 555 Exotic tastes to you (I want to see if reveals itself similarly to me).

Mr.M,

You might as well ask me to describe how Boba's Bounty tastes. Describing flavors is mostly downright impossible. That's one of the reasons I started The RY4 Roundup thread---at least with RY4s, we have the "Big Three" component ingredients to fall back on. To review an RY4, you don't have to literally describe the flavor, you just have to schmooze about vanilla, caramel, and tobacco. Oh, we might say that the caramel is rich or the tobacco is odd, and we might discuss nuttiness, marshmallow, or cotton candy as possible ingredient flavors, but we never really get down to defining the taste of caramel or tobacco or basically anything else. I can write one of my long reviews in such a way that I seem to know something authoritatively without ever defining a single flavor.

Define how "chocolate" tastes. Can't do it, right? All we can do is compare chocolates as to how they differ: one is more bitter, another is more creamy, a third is darker or more chalky, and so on.

We can say that NLV Bounty Hunter has a cereal component, but that's describing the flavor in terms of another flavor, and not even very specifically at that (Cap'n Crunch? Cheerios? Grape Nuts?---hell, even Grape Nuts tastes nothing like its name---no grapes, no nuts. LOL.)

OK, we can sort of describe lemonade in term of tartness versus sweetness, but what is the flavor of lemon at its essence? Well, um, it tastes like... (wait for it) LEMON! Duh. We might as well say that it tastes yellow. The only thing we can do is hope that the reader has actually eaten real lemons and then describe the flavor of a lemon eliquid as exactly like that, sort of like that, or nothing like that.

Same with Spring Vapor Black Label 555 or BWB 555 Exotic. I wouldn't know how to begin to describe what they taste like. The best I can do is to say that I like them, or to offer the somewhat exaggerated comment that---unlike many 555s---they don't make me scrunch up my face, gag, or want to puke. I mean, besides "tobacco and nuts," which is the uber-generic definition of 555, what can we truly say? Only that those two juices taste more like really yummy tobacco blends than ordinary 555s.

Now, aren't you glad you asked? You've squeezed out of me one of the Secret Truths of Juice Reviews: Reviewers hardly ever describe how juices taste. Why not? Because we can't. We just compare the taste of the juice to known flavors or use flavor qualities (tart, sweet, sour, pungent, tangy, rich, creamy, etc.) in the same way (as comparisons to other juices or known flavors).

There, I've revealed the Magician's secret to how the trick is done. It's all smoke and mirrors. Well, I guess it's just mirrors, since smoke is verboten. Vapor and Mirrors. LOL.

Boom. I love it.

 

[aubergine]

This is in part a semantic problem.
One difficulty seems to be that "taste" has two definitions (or sets of definitions) and some confusion arises when we use those interchangeably, as we consistently do:

1. Has to do with "The sense that distinguishes the sweet, sour, salty, and bitter qualities of dissolved substances in contact with the taste buds on the tongue." As in, "This is the taste of salt". There is arguably some subjectivity involved here - my daughter's cooking is too salty for me and fine for her, but we'd not disagree that we are at variance over SALT.

2. Has to do with "A personal preference or liking: the faculty of discerning what is aesthetically excellent or appropriate."
When people say that taste is subjective, they're generally referring to this definition.

(As an ex-philosophy student I'd emphasize that the study of aesthetics [which extends to culinary arts] is a gnarly, forever unresolved and irritable business, all to do with whether taste in this sense is purely subjective or to do with qualities actually in the object. By default it's generally agreed that preference is subjective but that there ought to be some sort of 'canon' or standard for 'good taste' so that we are encouraged to like stuff that reflects certain cultural values, ie, artisan vs mass-produced, approved-by-a-respected-group, requiring skill rather than random accident, etc.. Charges of snobbery enter here ["I do discern just a soupcon of toasted ginger nestled amongst the delicate nibs of what must be a dark German chocolate laced with hand-picked Provencal gooseberries!"], as do charges of aesthetic vulgarity ["It's GREEN! COOL!"], and the beat goes on.

So first, anyway, we have to get our language straightened out. A coherent review would say something like:
"This juice tastes to me like raspberries and chocolate - moderately sweet, with the berry flavor prominent. I say moderately sweet in comparison with other juices I've tasted - I'd say that this isn't candy-sweet but I don't discern a fresh-fruit tartness either." Etc. That fulfills the more-or-less "objective" criteria of def. 1.
There will be some variance given taste-bud differences, but sweetness and 'berry flavor' are in the juice, not the vaper, as 'red' is in a painting.

Then, "I loved this juice - it's a matter of taste (def 2), but moderate sweetness is perfect for me and I was reminded of chocolate-raspberry straws, yum! My husband Bubba hates it and is sticking with his disgusting Burley Blend, but he won't drink pink cocktails either. And Mr Mann thinks it's OK but boring and ordinary, but he's just like totally jaded and weird or or something."

But, and in conclusion, none of this will do any good, because human beings firmly if secretly believe their own preferences to be universally definitive. The best we can do is band together with the people who like what we like and throw our recommendations back and forth. I mean, if I like Bach and you like Tom Waits we're screwed, right?

But hold on. I like 'em both, a lot.
You would too, if you had any taste.

We'll never sort it out.

 

[gthompson]

But, and in conclusion, none of this will do any good, because human beings firmly believe their own preferences to be universally definitive.

The entire problem in a nutshell.

 

[glasseye]

Here's the kicker: I love your post and I agree with it except the inclusion of that last line (LOL). I am not saying that it is as simple as sour, sweet and the like, but that being a starting point for the harder work. The Boba's thread is very much people wracking their brains--I won't go into how I feel about what their leaving out--but the point is they are trying. That's all I am asking for. Attempts. Effort. Thoughts. Details. Boba's is Boba's and Boba is Boba, ahem! But, when it comes down to it, when you start saying Boba tastes like The Goddess' kiss? I don't think you'll find a Flavour Art concentrate for that!

LOL. Point taken. But...

Another thing just occurred to me...

Asking "how does it taste?" isn't the right question. The right question is "what does it taste like?" or "what flavors do you taste?".

Asking "how does it taste?" is like asking "how are you?". It's easy to give a one word answer that doesn't really answer the question. If you asked me "how are you?" and I replied with "fine", yes - I technically answered the question. But you have no more information than you did before asking. However, if you asked me a follow up "what's been going on today?", the door would be open for me to tell you exactly what has been going on.

I think we should change the question we are asking. That shift in language moves the focus from the person's opinion of the flavor to the flavor itself and, I think, helps to remove the subjectivity - I suspect you would see more descriptions of the flavors and less of the "but, taste is subjective" responses.

hhmm... will need to chew on this one for a bit methinks.

...what if someone is telling you what it tastes like to them and it differs very much from what someone else says? Is one person wrong? Are they both wrong? Are they only wrong until you yourself try the (juice in question) object of discussion? At which time one or both or all three of you may be right or wrong to the next person?

I'm going to go back to my AiV White Rabbit reference. I can say, as objectively as I can and without a bit of rancor, that it tastes like celery water to me. I actually love celery, I use celery seed in many of my own recipes for cooking, it elevates them. I don't want to vape it. Now, a person who likes to vape WR might say it tastes like white cake with coconut (I have heard that description). Are we not both being objective? Or at least making the attempt to be?

 

[Mr.Mann]

This is in part a semantic problem.
One difficulty seems to be that "taste" has two definitions (or sets of definitions) and some confusion arises when we use those interchangeably, as we consistently do:

1. Has to do with "The sense that distinguishes the sweet, sour, salty, and bitter qualities of dissolved substances in contact with the taste buds on the tongue." As in, "This is the taste of salt". There is arguably some subjectivity involved here - my daughter's cooking is too salty for me and fine for her, but we'd not disagree that we are in variance over SALT.

2. Has to do with "A personal preference or liking: the faculty of discerning what is aesthetically excellent or appropriate.

(As an ex-philosophy student I'd emphasize that the study of aesthetics [which extends to culinary arts] is a gnarly, forever unresolved and irritable business, all to do with whether taste in this sense is purely subjective or to do with qualities actually in the object. By default it's generally agreed that preference is subjective but that there ought to be some sort of 'canon' or standard for 'good taste' so that we are encouraged to like stuff that reflects certain cultural values, ie, artisan vs mass-produced, approved-by-a-respected-group, requiring skill rather than random accident, etc.. Charges of snobbery enter here ["I do discern just a soupcon of toasted ginger nestled amongst the delicate nibs of what must be a dark German chocolate laced with hand-picked Provencal gooseberries!"], as do charges of aesthetic vulgarity ["It's GREEN! COOL!"], and the beat goes on.

So first, anyway, we have to get our language straightened out. A coherent review would say something like:
"This juice tastes to me like raspberries and chocolate - moderately sweet, with the berry flavor prominent. I say moderately sweet in comparison with other juices I've tasted - I'd say that this isn't candy-sweet but I don't discern a fresh-fruit tartness either." Etc. That fulfills the "objective" criteria of def. 1. There will be some variance given taste-bud differences, but sweetness and 'berry flavor' are in the juice, not the vaper, as 'red' is in a painting.

Then, "I loved this juice - it's a matter of taste (def 2), but moderate sweetness is perfect for me and I was reminded of chocolate-raspberry straws, yum! My husband Bubba hates it and is sticking with his disgusting Burley Blend, but he won't drink pink cocktails either. And Mr Mann thinks it's OK but boring and ordinary, but he's just like totally jaded and weird or or something."

But, and in conclusion, none of this will do any good, because human beings firmly believe their own preferences to be universally definitive. The best we can do is band together with the people who like what we like and throw our recommendations back and forth. I mean, if I like Bach and you like Tom Waits...

But hold on. I like 'em both, a lot. We'll never sort it out.

I don't give two good gnarly damns what we sort out, all I know is that your post is such that I yearned for! OMG. Right on, Aubergine, right on.

Great posts so far! I won't keep this thread open forever, but while it is open, I sure like reading what people think. I have no concern with being "right," I only want to be in a good conversation and so far it is.

 

[aubergine]

Ooh a simultaneous post, Mr Mann, except I was fixing my punctuation.

To glasseye, also: Well, objective?
Test one - IS it celery water, or does it contain celery water? That's the only truly "objective" standard.

No? Then,
Test two: Is it made with an artificial flavoring called "celery water"? If so, you can compare real celery water and artificial celery water flavoring and complain or approve of the resemblance, but you see that things are already getting subjective. But, no artificial celery water flavoring?

Then,
Test three: Others agree that something in there tastes like celery water? (Enter long discussion about whether meaning is 'consensual', and how.) Could it be green tea? Does green tea taste like celery water? You could sleuth around like that to see if there's something objective going on, but we're definitely in the "I have no idea what's going on but this sure does remind some of us of celery water..."

And so on.

Here's the thing. There's nothing wrong with subjective. There's nothing inherently false about subjective. So long as we are subjects, all of our perceptions will be subjective. Including scientific ones: see quantum physics.

So rock on.

Celery water? Seriously? I love celery soda pop...

 

[Mr.Mann]

LOL. Point taken. But...

...what if someone is telling you what it tastes like to them and it differs very much from what someone else says? Is one person wrong? Are they both wrong? Are they only wrong until you yourself try the (juice in question) object of discussion? At which time one or both or all three of you may be right or wrong to the next person?

I'm going to go back to my AiV White Rabbit reference. I can say, as objectively as I can and without a bit of rancor, that it tastes like celery water to me. I actually love celery, I use celery seed in many of my own recipes for cooking, it elevates them. I don't want to vape it. Now, a person who likes to vape WR might say it tastes like white cake with coconut (I have heard that description). Are we not both being objective? Or at least making the attempt to be?

Taking the totality of opinions, though all may be wildly different, is different than saying 6 people love it and 4 people hate it. One of my favorite juices is liked by very few, but if I were to best write a description of it, I am not sure if most would rush out to get it.

Celery Water and white cake with coconut tells me much more than "yuck" and "yum."

 

[aubergine]

...Celery Water and white cake with coconut tells me much more than "yuck" and "yum."

I'd guess that it's the 'vegetative' taste in both coconut and celery that's discerned here. People's taste buds are usually more or less intelligent that way.

 

[CannedWolf]

LOL. Point taken. But...



...what if someone is telling you what it tastes like to them and it differs very much from what someone else says? Is one person wrong? Are they both wrong? Are they only wrong until you yourself try the (juice in question) object of discussion? At which time one or both or all three of you may be right or wrong to the next person?

I'm going to go back to my AiV White Rabbit reference. I can say, as objectively as I can and without a bit of rancor, that it tastes like celery water to me. I actually love celery, I use celery seed in many of my own recipes for cooking, it elevates them. I don't want to vape it. Now, a person who likes to vape WR might say it tastes like white cake with coconut (I have heard that description). Are we not both being objective? Or at least making the attempt to be?

I dont think either is wrong. I dont think its a matter of being "right" or "wrong"... I think its about being descriptive and leaving personal preference out of it.

As Mr.Mann said, "Celery Water" is still much better than "I loved it. It was much better than Cats. I'm going to vape it again and again!"

 

[patkin]

To me "taste is subjective" should only be used when talking about a multi-layered juice and then the steep-time should be given. One may have tried it long before a flavor became dominant or another faded into the background. With a simple juice like peach, it should taste like peach for instance... period. That said, the ones that really perplex me is reading 55 reviews that say different versions of "its the greatest thing since...." and then two people say it tastes like soap/perfume/chemicals. Or many people saying it tastes like freshly picked cherries but two say it tastes like the chemical cherry taste of Robitussin cough syrup. Will I be one that tastes cough syrup or soap and can a soap taste possibly be subjective? To me that has to be physical and not an "I like it" or "don't like it." Grandma used it to wash out our mouths specifically because it tastes so bad. I've not met one person who wouldn't know soap when it hit their tongue but when it comes to juice, apparently, that is the case. It has bothered me so much reading vendor site customer reviews that I've wondered if these people are trolls or nasty competitors because I just can't fathom one lone ranger tasting something as bad as soap when most others don't and, in fact, seem to really like what they taste. I wonder that especially when the reviewer doesn't say taste is subjective or "I must have gotten a bad batch."

 

[Mr.Mann]

Oops, got caught up in too many windows being open.

 

[aubergine]

Canned wolf, what's a review without a "subjective" judgement? It would have to read something like "chocolate. raspberry, I think. some people report that they like it.". Even saying "I tasted chemical something", or "weak" is getting subjective. If it's arguable, it's subjective.
Again, there's nothing wrong with subjective. There's not any fun in or truth in aesthetics as science.
Objective does not equal true in this realm - it'd be reading a movie review which was just a plot synopsis and list of characters and such. As soon as any sort of judgement enters, it's subjective, and food reviews and art reviews and all such are; the best reviews reference actual content but also commend or reject, enthusiastically. What we want is judgements that are persuasive, actually reflect close attention to an experience, and some level of discrimination.

I'm remembering the time I took my daughter, then about 5, to a wine-tasting. She picked up on the atmosphere (it was a stuffy, jargony one) quickly. When she lifted my glass to her lips, all eyes were on her, 'cause she was cute. She sipped delicately, swished and spat, paused reflectively and pronounced,
"Oh, my. I'd say... ewwwwwwww."

This is the same daughter, now grown up, who will only vape two flavors of a totally awful sweet-artificial-candy line that will not be mentioned, which goes to show that you shouldn't bother with all that early training.

 

[Mr.Mann]

To me "taste is subjective" should only be used when talking about a multi-layered juice and then the steep-time should be given. One may have tried it long before a flavor became dominant or another faded into the background. With a simple juice like peach, it should taste like peach for instance... period. That said, the ones that really perplex me is reading 55 reviews that say different versions of "its the greatest thing since...." and then two people say it tastes like soap/perfume/chemicals. Or many people saying it tastes like freshly picked cherries but two say it tastes like the chemical cherry taste of Robitussin cough syrup. Will I be one that tastes cough syrup or soap and can a soap taste possibly be subjective? To me that has to be physical and not an "I like it" or "don't like it." Grandma used it to wash out our mouths specifically because it tastes so bad. I've not met one person who wouldn't know soap when it hit their tongue but when it comes to juice, apparently, that is the case. It has bothered me so much reading vendor site customer reviews that I've wondered if these people are trolls or nasty competitors because I just can't fathom one lone ranger tasting something as bad as soap when most others don't and, in fact, seem to really like what they taste. I wonder that especially when the reviewer doesn't say taste is subjective or "I must have gotten a bad batch."

I, too, have wondered the same thing, which is why I like points of view from all. A point of view is not the same as an empty statement. If I read more times than not that a juice tastes like a fresh bar of Zest, and I don't mean from a lemon, then I start to feel like I have a clue about what that juice may taste like. If all I read is a war of good vs. bad, then I don't know what to think.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I'm remembering the time I took my daughter, then about 5, to a wine-tasting. She picked up on the atmosphere (it was a stuffy, jargony one) quickly. When she lifted my glass to her lips, all eyes were on her, 'cause she was cute. She sipped delicately, swished and spat, paused reflectively and pronounced,
"Oh, my. I'd say... ewwwwwwww."

This is the same daughter, now grown up, who will only vape two flavors of a totally awful sweet-artificial-candy line that will not be mentioned, which goes to show that you shouldn't bother with all that early training.

Picture painted perfectly.

 

[patkin]

I, too, have wondered the same thing, which is why I like points of view from all. A point of view is not the same as an empty statement. If I read more times than not that a juice tastes like a fresh bar of Zest, and I don't mean from a lemon, then I start to feel like I have a clue about what that juice may taste like. If all I read is a war of good vs. bad, then I don't know what to think.

Slightly OT but what do you do when you read just one or two people saying soapy up against a lot of others who don't? I don't know if I'm odd *shhhhh* or if most people give more weight to a couple of negative reviews than they do to a lot of positive ones but they usually do scare me off. Then I think I might have been suckered in by a troll (disgruntled customer) and get disgusted with myself. I've had soapy juice and its so awful that I'm gun shy I guess.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Slightly OT but what do you do when you read just one or two people saying soapy up against a lot of others who don't? I don't know if I'm odd *shhhhh* or if most people give more weight to a couple of negative reviews than they do to a lot of positive ones but they usually do scare me off. Then I think I might have been suckered in by a troll (disgruntled customer) and get disgusted with myself. I've had soapy juice and its so awful that I'm gun shy I guess.

It depends on how well the reviews are written, who said what, and the way they said it. A lot of times, at least on ECF (the only place that matters for most reviews as far as I am concerned), I check to see what other liquids they may like. If I am really on the fence about a juice, but am looking to be swayed one way or another, I often times call it a wash and figure I don't need to waste my money. If a juice can at least spark many various opinions and serious interpretations, I will have to try it. Pluid, for example, was not a juice I thought I would like, but it was such a toss-up that I had to see for myself.