Steeping Times and an Ultrasonic Cleaner Part III

[crxess]

I am fairly confident that the aging effect will increase as temperature increases. The real question is at what temperature does nicotine start to degrade by a significant amount. Clearly it must degrade with temperature or Manufactures wouldnt recommend storage in the freezer.

Your answer would be yes and no.
Freezer storing increases useful life by SLOWING molecules.
Steeping in any form is the inverse.

Natural = Time for molecules to align(blend) in proper and final clusters. Though it seems the PG/VG do not come fully into play. Seen as shake before using.

Hot Bath - Crock pot (Thermos in my test) raises temperature and excites molecules which should allow quicker alignment
Ultrasonic - similar to Crock Pot plus addition of high frequency agitation of molecules.

In all cases clusters must form and cohesion must be maintained
The cool down period is likely where the final results prove out as molecules return to their natural energy state and balance is restored.

But what do I know? I'm just a 60y.o. ex-mechanic

 

[mikepetro]

Ran about 2ml of each juice through my Taifun today. No discernible difference in taste. The color of the bottles looks the same even in the sunlight. Didnt take a pic as they still look the same.

 

[mikepetro]

OK, now I am curious about the whole temp vs nic degradation question.

Here is the Test Protocol I am considering, please offer any suggestions.

Make a large batch of 50/50 with ~4% nic, no flavoring or other dilutants.
Fill 4 1oz Boston Rounds with this mixture.
Mark one bottle as the "Control Sample" and set it aside.
Mark each of the other 3 bottles with 125F,150F, and 175F.
CP each bottle for 8 hours at the specified temp.
When complete pull three 5ml samples from each of the four bottles and titrate them, using the average of the 3 as the test result. If any given test result is more than 10% different than the other two, throw it out and redo it so as not to skew the average.

One problem I have is that my Nicotine Titration Kit is rather crude, simply using syringes to dispense the hydrochloric acid. This is not accurate enough for my intent. Does anybody know where I can find a 5 or 10 ml Burette Retort at a reasonable price in the US?

Edit: I found and unused autofill 10ml Burette on eBay for $20. Now I just need to figure out a bottle to put it in, it fills from the bottom through a tube in the center.

 

[beckdg]

why not do 10% and do 3 1ml samples from each bottle?

the higher the nic, the more likely it would be affected by degradation faster, no?

just a thought. don't mind me. i know nothing.

but if there's something for me to learn, feel free to explain.

 

[mikepetro]

why not do 10% and do 3 1ml samples from each bottle?

the higher the nic, the more likely it would be affected by degradation faster, no?

just a thought. don't mind me. i know nothing.

but if there's something for me to learn, feel free to explain.

Its an idea, might play with it.

The larger the sample size the more accurate a titration test will be, regardless of concentration, at least when using a Burette. Most home nic test kits call for a 1ml sample size, I propose using a 5ml sample to increase the accuracy. I am also using a weaker 0.1N reagent vs the more common 0.12N thats readily available at the Pool Suppliers, again for increased accuracy.

Not sure if concentration has anything to do degradation rate, but a higher concentration might make it easier to see if it is slight.

 

[disco180]

geesh! I am excited by this and I am not even the one conducting the experiment GO GO GO Mikepetro for DIY President!!!!

 

[beckdg]

Not sure if concentration has anything to do degradation rate, but a higher concentration might make it easier to see if it is slight.

that's a much more accurate way to put what i was thinking.

another thing to consider, i guess. i find that mixing with a stirrer is a royal PITA. i also find that a little bromothymol blue doesn't give much opacity to tell the difference between yellow-green and yellow.

what i do find to help is to have a magnetic stirring plate and a 50ml erlenmeyer flask that's backed in white with a thin viewing window. the froth (think white water) kicked up from the stirring gives a nice, opaque density to the liquid and some white paint on the outside of the flask helps keep outside influence in the viewing color from being a nuisance. a thin viewing window ensures constant visual contact.

all this helps take the guess work out of the equation for me and drastically speeds up the titration process.

worth considering if you have an old pc fan and an old power brick from something like a beard trimmer lying around.

 

[mikepetro]

Oh my gosh, look what I found! Perfect for the DIY type.

100ml of "High-Vapor" eLiquid base, just add your own nicotine and flavoring!
Only $28.50 plus $17.20 shipping.

The sad thing is, this is for real!
How To Make E Cigarette Nicotine Liquids

 

[mikepetro]

For those who are interested, I started a blog post on the heat trials I intend to perform. I want to be able to refer to it in the future, and stuff gets lost in these threads.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mikepetro/6202-effects-heat-nicotine-degradation.html

Feel free to make suggestions.

 

[rowdyplace]

Hmmm...

Under five bucks at WL with $6. shipping...

The site is kinda distorting the truth...

Cut-n-paste:
Nicotine is, in North America a controlled substance which prevents the sale of nicotine e liquids. There is no American made nicotine e liquid available! All those e cigarettes which are available in stores, contain only taste additives. No nicotine!

<<snip>>

 

[shynsly]

Wow funny thing they state on their description, that alcohol contains Diaceytl? first time i have heard that....

Oh my gosh, look what I found! Perfect for the DIY type.

100ml of "High-Vapor" eLiquid base, just add your own nicotine and flavoring!
Only $28.50 plus $17.20 shipping.

The sad thing is, this is for real!
How To Make E Cigarette Nicotine Liquids

 

[mikepetro]

Yeah, the whole page is just chock full of malarky.

 

[dannyv45]

For those who are interested, I started a blog post on the heat trials I intend to perform. I want to be able to refer to it in the future, and stuff gets lost in these threads.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/blogs/mikepetro/6202-effects-heat-nicotine-degradation.html

Feel free to make suggestions.

I look forward to your testing and results. Bookmarking.

 

[mikepetro]

After 48 hours the Control sample starting catching up, but really all 3 deepened in color slightly.

 

[Jaepoori]

So I was looking for a UC with a long timer. I don't mind shelling out over a 100 for one. Any suggestions or reviews would be great. I wanted one with a timer longer than 8 mins. Thanks!

 

[mikepetro]

So I was looking for a UC with a long timer. I don't mind shelling out over a 100 for one. Any suggestions or reviews would be great. I wanted one with a timer longer than 8 mins. Thanks!

I have been very happy with this one. It is powerful (120w of transducer power, plus 100w of heat) and has a 99 minute timer.

Amazon.com: Kendal Commercial Grade 220 Watts 3 liters HEATED ULTRASONIC CLEANER HB23: Industrial & Scientific

 

[rowdyplace]

I have been very happy with this one. It is powerful (120w of transducer power, plus 100w of heat) and has a 99 minute timer.

Amazon.com: Kendal Commercial Grade 220 Watts 3 liters HEATED ULTRASONIC CLEANER HB23: Industrial & Scientific

Why buy a UC right now? Maybe I am missing something but, it looks to me that the CP is as good...

UC, around $100 to $200. CP, about $10...

I have a Harbor Freight (http://www.harborfreight.com/25-liter-ultrasonic-cleaner-95563.html) unit - new in the box - sitting right next to me. I am waiting on your research to decide on using or returning...

Thank you Mike!!

 

[bobalex]

Why buy a UC right now? Maybe I am missing something but, it looks to me that the CP is as good...

Mike's shown the Strawberry juice he made steeped in hot water for 3 hours was very close/same as 3 hours in a UC. It's a different story for tobacco juices. 8 hours of hot water (with lots of shaking) didn't discernibly speed up the process for the 3 tobacco flavors I made. It wasn't until I tried playing around with a UC that I could drastically cut down steep times.

Over the last couple of years I've incorporated some of the tweaks I've read about here and now the process takes 4 - 5 hours instead of 3 - 4 weeks.

It all depends on what you vape. Some flavors obviously need heat, others, like tobacco, need the good vibrations of a UC.

 

[DejayRezme]

What are flavors that need longer steeping / UC?
Tobacco. Custard flavors? Banana flavors?

The nice thing is that Mikepetro's test protocol can be reproduced by others with different flavors now. I'm really curious how this plays out with flavors that need longer time to steep. Also the question remains how the taste is independent of the colorization.

What causes the colorization btw? Is it a chemical reaction (e.g. nicotine breakdown) or just "bonding" of substances (flavor bonding to PG/VG)?

I certainly hope I haven't just bought my UC just for cleaning stuff

 

[JackH]

Over the last couple of years I've incorporated some of the tweaks I've read about here and now the process takes 4 - 5 hours instead of 3 - 4 weeks.

Bobalex, could you please list your current 4-5 hour process for tobacco mixes? I know I could reread the entire thread and piece it together, but it would take a while and I'd miss something somewhere. Thanks!