Stupid question ?

[leonyam]

I am new on here and new to vaping and am very interested in DIY liquid, so please excuse me if this has been discussed before, BUT .........
Stupid question # 1
If you use any infusion system to extract tobacco flavour from cigs, pipe tobacco or cigars aren't you extracting all those 1,000's of chemicals in tobacco that we try to avoid by vaping ?

 

[EddieAdams]

Not stupid. Those doing extractions seem to use tobacco that is just 100% pure tobacco and not treated with any additives. I assume they use cigars because they fit that criteria afaik. I just lurk and read here. I'm sure someone who's more knowledgeable with tobacco extraction will come along...

 

[Bagazo]

If you use any infusion system to extract tobacco flavour from cigs, pipe tobacco or cigars aren't you extracting all those 1,000's of chemicals in tobacco that we try to avoid by vaping ?

I like the question and the answer is probably yes and no. From what I understand the 1,000's of chemicals are actually products of the burning of tobacco.

Also, we are not avoiding 1,000's of chemicals, just the handful that are known carcinogens.

The whole "chemical in tobacco" propaganda was started by ANTZ (Anti-nicotine and tobacco zealots). It really bugs me that someone can see "4-Hydroxy-3-methoxybenzaldehyde" and think, man I can't believe they put that in tobacco, when it is just the scientific name for vanillin, the main flavor chemical in vanilla. Nobody blinks when they buy a cone topped with a frosty ball laced with this chemical or when grandma drops a tablespoon of this stuff in her cookies or cakes but see it on a list of chemicals added to tobaccos and people freak out.

 

[Norrin]

Even if you used a tobacco with all the extra chemicals you wouldn't extract a large amount, you don't get nic from extraction because the way you are doing it doesn't actually get the nic out. Best to use pure tobacco though.

 

[Bagazo]

Even if you used a tobacco with all the extra chemicals you wouldn't extract a large amount, you don't get nic from extraction because the way you are doing it doesn't actually get the nic out. Best to use pure tobacco though.

Why would you assume this? The fact that there are PG and VG liquids with nicotine dissolved in them shows that they can extract nicotine from tobacco. It is also miscible in water and ethanol. Did I leave out any other solvents used by the DIY community?

 

[Bunnykiller]

there may be some of the stuff we dont want from extracting tobaccos, but thats the thing we have to deal with when doing so....
no telling how many "flavorants" used in the commercially made juices have undesireable components...
intentionally inhaling stuff other than air and moisture probably has some detrimental effects on the body but it sure beats smoking

 

[Bagazo]

there may be some of the stuff we dont want from extracting tobaccos, but thats the thing we have to deal with when doing so....

Let's not kid ourselves, there is no maybe about it.

no telling how many "flavorants" used in the commercially made juices have undesireable components...

Since most of these things have been studied and are considered GRAS they are the ones that get the maybe.

intentionally inhaling stuff other than air and moisture probably has some detrimental effects on the body but it sure beats smoking

Depends on whether it's the same stuff present in the smoke or not.

 

[93gc40]

Remember most of the BAD stuff in tobacco.. Is the result of BURNING tobacco. Vaporizing trace amounts of those plant oils and amino acids and ect is a totally different thing.

Fwiw - most of the natural nic in tobacco is destroyed via the extraction process. Thus the need to add it back in to E-Juice.

 

[AndriaD]

Why would you assume this? The fact that there are PG and VG liquids with nicotine dissolved in them shows that they can extract nicotine from tobacco. It is also miscible in water and ethanol. Did I leave out any other solvents used by the DIY community?

PEG-400.

Just had to throw that in there, FWIW.

Andria

 

[Bagazo]

Remember most of the BAD stuff in tobacco.. Is the result of BURNING tobacco. Vaporizing trace amounts of those plant oils and amino acids and ect is a totally different thing.

But is it a totally safe thing?

Fwiw - most of the natural nic in tobacco is destroyed via the extraction process. Thus the need to add it back in to E-Juice.

I don't see the point here. NETs extracted without heat, commercial e-juice and tobacco smoke all contain nic.

 

[Str8vision]

I am new on here and new to vaping and am very interested in DIY liquid, so please excuse me if this has been discussed before, BUT .........
Stupid question # 1
If you use any infusion system to extract tobacco flavour from cigs, pipe tobacco or cigars aren't you extracting all those 1,000's of chemicals in tobacco that we try to avoid by vaping ?

Welcome to the extraction forum. Your question has been asked a few times but isn't a "stupid" one to ask. First, there aren't 1000's of chemicals added to any tobacco. We've all heard that ANTZ propaganda so often we took it to be fact but in truth there are 600 chemicals known to be used in tobacco products with many being the same "flavorings" (Blueberry, Peach, Cherry, Vanilla....etc), we use for vaping. Also included in the list of chemicals is PG, VG, Liquid nic, Sucrose (sugar), Sucralose (sweetener). No single tobacco contains all 600 chemical additives but as with DIY juice each blend contains a few of them, some tobaccos contain more than others. Cigarette tobacco is a prime example, from what I've read tobacco companies use toxic chemicals like Ammonia (makes the nicotine more effective), Benzene, Acetone and many other "questionable" chemicals which is why I don't extract flavor from cigarette tobacco. Pipe tobaccos and Cigars can have Sucrose, Sucralose, PG and various flavorings added to them. I'm not certain but suspect pesticides could also be present on some tobaccos, I'm especially cautious of those that are foreign grown in nations with little regulatory oversight. I think it safe to assume that any chemical added to the tobacco could find its way into our flavor extracts.

The main health hazard associated with smoking tobacco (carcinogens), only occur when the tobacco is burnt (a process called pyrolysis), and inhaled. Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH), Acrolein and Nitrosamines are potent carcinogens and are all created by pyrolysis (when the tobacco is burnt). These same carcinogens are produced when burning ANY organic matter, not just tobacco. When you "flame kiss" that steak on the grill guess what you just introduced.... The big difference is dosage/frequency, smokers create and intentionally inhale these carcinogenic pyrolytic products repeatedly throughout each and every day whereas the steak is consumed only occasionally. Carbon Monoxide (a poison), is also a product of the combustion process, it isn't in the tobacco but is produced when you burn it. So is NET safe to vape since we aren't burning anything? Probably not, vaping anything, even unflavored, is likely not 100% safe. Carcinogenic pyrolytic products can be produced/formed at temperatures as low as 400F. What is the crud that builds up on our coils? What happens when we get a "dry hit" when using cotton wick? No doubt in my mind vaping NET is FAR safer than burning/smoking tobacco, but I personally doubt it is without some measure of risk.

Hot or cold macerations, Supercritical CO2 and steam distillation are the same in that using PG, VG, PGA, CO2 and or water as the solvent to extract flavor from tobacco does not extract any but trace amounts of nicotine or WTA's.... period. I wish it did, but it doesn't. If you want any measurable amount of nic or WTA in your NET you will have to add it. The process required for extracting nicotine and WTA's is complex, involves highly toxic chemicals and is best left to certified labs/chemists.

Personally, I didn't start vaping to stop smoking. I love tobacco and smoked it for 40 years, the last 15 of which was spent as a pipe enthusiast. I didn't quit using tobacco, I just stopped burning it. I love the flavor of NET and after two years of vaping it (and not smoking), I feel much better physically. I've been extracting flavor from tobacco for quite some time. The past year has been the most informative/productive and conducive to my extraction efforts especially after finding ECF and the extraction sub forum. There is a wealth of information/data available on-line some of it is hard to find but well worth the time and trouble.

 

[Bagazo]

Hot or cold macerations, Supercritical CO2 and steam distillation are the same in that using PG, VG, PGA, CO2 and or water as the solvent to extract flavor from tobacco does not extract any but trace amounts of nicotine or WTA's.... period.

Don't know where you got this idea but according to this study: INVESTIGATIOINS INTO THE EXTRACTION OF NICOTINE FROM TOBACCO

The water extraction technique is an efficient method for the extraction of 80'-85% of the nicotine from waste leaf, stems or high nicotine burley.

and

The majority of the nicotine is removed on the first aqueous extraction treatment, the extraction of the waste stems could probably be facilitated by mechanically extracting, draining and compressing.

And this is why I do short room temp water extractions:

Partial reduction of the leaf nicotine (40-45%), may be obtained after one extraction.

Also, TSNAs exist in tobacco even before it is burnt.

 

[Str8vision]

Don't know where you got this idea but according to this study: INVESTIGATIOINS INTO THE EXTRACTION OF NICOTINE FROM TOBACCO

and


And this is why I do short room temp water extractions:



Also, TSNAs exist in tobacco even before it is burnt.

Here's a link that explains the problem with extracting nic using the processes available to us E-Cigarette Forum - Uncategorized - Blogs If you like what you are doing and are happy with the nic level you think you have, don't read it. In a different blog he outlines procedures for testing the nic strength in juice. There are also some interesting discussions about WTA's, DVaP is one of the pioneers of WTA extraction and believe he is behind the on-line commercial offerings of such. Some of the discussions are between chemists and can be difficult to follow.

Yes tobacco does have naturally occurring nitrosamine's that are called Tobacco Specific NitrosAmine's (TSNAs). Most nitrosamine's are considered carcinogenic and they are found in foods like meats, cheese, beer and many other products. They have also been found in non-NET e-juice according to lab reports released a few months ago, there is "speculation" it may have been in the PG or VG. TSNA's are the main hazard associated with chewing tobacco and snuff use but simply aren't in the same league with the pyrolytic carcinogens generated when burning/smoking tobacco. I'm not saying there aren't any nitrosamine's in our NET, I'm sure there is, but if I was that worried about it I would stop eating meat and drinking beer as well. Nothing in nature, including the water we drink and air we breath, is without some form of health risk.

 

[Bagazo]

I have been here since the early days and followed everything that led up to WTA.

I'm sorry but the study I cited doesn't contradict what Dvap says but I do remember him saying that he does not even bother with the alkaloids that are in salt form, these can make up 85% of the alkaloids present in the tobacco. I call it Dvap's snafu and it is probably the main reason that WTA costs as much as it does.

TSNA's are the main hazard associated with chewing tobacco and snuff use but simply aren't in the same league with the pyrolytic carcinogens generated when burning/smoking tobacco.

True but you did put them in the same category:

Polycyclic Aromatic Hydrocarbons (PAH), Acrolein and Nitrosamines are potent carcinogens and are all created by pyrolysis.

 

[DVap]

I'm sorry but the study I cited doesn't contradict what Dvap says but I do remember him saying that he does not even bother with the alkaloids that are in salt form, these can make up 85% of the alkaloids present in the tobacco. I call it Dvap's snafu and it is probably the main reason that WTA costs as much as it does.

If I'm reading you correctly, you've interpreted something I said somewhere in the past as a statement that my technique(s) for WTA production doesn't bother to extract alkaloid salts from raw tobacco.

If this were true, it would be far worse than a SNAFU, it would be just plain dumb of me. I like to think you'd give me more credit than that.

 

[Bagazo]

I was going off of your early 0.5ml from 100g of tobacco results and what you wrote about being suprised by the amount of alkaloid salts extracted using ethanol.

I'm not going to get into the same argument that went on in Lastlokean's "Ethanol extract" thread. The study I cited says that capillary g.c. showed that they had extracted 52.2g of nicotine from 907.18g of tobacco in a sequential extraction in plain water.

I don't see any reason why I shouldn't believe their results.

 

[Str8vision]

I have been here since the early days and followed everything that led up to WTA.

I'm sorry but the study I cited doesn't contradict what Dvap says but I do remember him saying that he does not even bother with the alkaloids that are in salt form, these can make up 85% of the alkaloids present in the tobacco. I call it Dvap's snafu and it is probably the main reason that WTA costs as much as it does.


True but you did put them in the same category:

Our discussion involved rather or not our methods of extracting flavor from tobacco are also capable of extracting significant nic. They simply don't, it must be added. But if you're happy with the nic level present in your flavor extractions, that's great.

I didn't categorize TSNA's in the pyrolytic generated carcinogens I listed, you did. TSNA by its very definition is A Tobacco Specific NitrosAmine in that it is "Tobacco specific" and is present in tobacco before it is burned whereas the nitrosamine I referenced is "created" when - any - organic material (including Tobacco), is burned (pyrolysis). The nasty pyrolytic generated carcinogens contained in tobacco smoke are created/generated when the tobacco burns, but aren't present before then. People smoking dried grape vines inhale these same pyrolytic generated carcinogens.

 

[edwinoey]

In my experiences with DIY, i've tried to soaked the tobbaco plant/leaves into PG. well, i dont really know that tobbaco leaves really have those carcinogen and such dangerous chemicals, but what i do know is that the tobacco that IN A CIGS has been processed, so that have more dangerous chemical on it. while i use pure and unprocessed tobacco, it should be safer.

 

[DVap]

I was going off of your early 0.5ml from 100g of tobacco results and why you wrote about being suprised by the amount of alkaloid salts extracted using ethanol.

I'm not going to get into the same argument that went on in Lastlokean's "Ethanol extract" thread. The study I cited says that capillary g.c. showed that they had extracted 52.2g of nicotine from 907.18g of tobacco in a sequential extraction in plain water.

I don't see any reason why I shouldn't believe their results.

Yea, I remember getting bogged down in that discussion about the ethanol extraction. That aside, I've taken into account protonation in tobacco extraction.

I have no problem believing the 5.75% nicotine by weight figure of that study. I was just looking at that study (the website is broken right now, so I could only review the cached page), and it appears they were specifically targeting high nicotine burley tobaccos and even rustica. Seeing as this was a tobacco company study, they would have at their disposal any of a number of unusually high nicotine tobaccos. First, you're not generally going to find these "in the wild" (smoking a 5.75% nicotine cigarette would probably make you sick) not to mention that burleys are typically blended in minor amounts, and second, the air-cured nature of burley makes it very undesirable from a TSNA perspective.

Virginia tobacco flue-cured in modern barns (the stuff you want to use due to the extremely attractive TSNA profile, the reasons for which I'm not going to rehash here) runs considerably lower in nicotine than some of these burleys and rustica tobaccos. I know how to exhaustively extract tobacco, and the low end is about 0.8% by weight alkaloids, with the average running between 1.2 and 1.4% by weight. By no means have I come across a flue-cured virginia approaching 2% alkaloids by weight (though it may be out there). Another aspect of WTA that can be easily overlooked if one develops tunnel vision toward high nicotine tobacco is that some tobaccos make good WTA and others are really awful.

Anyway, hope this helps.

 

[Bagazo]

Our discussion involved rather or not our methods of extracting flavor from tobacco are also capable of extracting significant nic. They simply don't, it must be added. But if you're happy with the nic level present in your flavor extractions, that's great.

You keep saying they don't but I don't see a reason given. Polar solvents will extract salts. Alkaloids are in salt form in tobacco so it would be logical that they (PG, VG, water, ethanol, etc.) do just that and not just in trace amounts.

I didn't categorize TSNA's in the pyrolytic generated carcinogens I listed, you did. TSNA by its very definition is A Tobacco Specific NitrosAmine in that it is "Tobacco specific" and is present in tobacco before it is burned whereas the nitrosamine I referenced is "created" when - any - organic material (including Tobacco), is burned (pyrolysis). The nasty pyrolytic generated carcinogens contained in tobacco smoke are created/generated when the tobacco burns, but aren't present before then. People smoking dried grape vines inhale these same pyrolytic generated carcinogens.

Fair enough, but TSNAs are still nitrosamines and if they are generally considered bad and are present in smokless tobacco how does that make them inoffensive? Less harmful, maybe but still something to take into account.