Stupid question ?

[Bagazo]

I was just pointing out the percentage of the nicotine present being pulled out by water.

Your name came up because someone used your work as an example to back their claim that NETs only have trace amounts of nic. 1.2% alkaloids by weight being extracted with even a 10% efficiency (about 25% of that in the cited study) is in no way trace amounts.

 

[Str8vision]

You keep saying they don't but I don't see a reason given. Polar solvents will extract salts. Alkaloids are in salt form in tobacco so it would be logical that they (PG, VG, water, ethanol, etc.) do just that and not just in trace amounts.


Fair enough, but TSNAs are still nitrosamines and if they are generally considered bad and are present in smokless tobacco how does that make them inoffensive? Less harmful, maybe but still something to take into account.

Perhaps one could use water or PGA as the solvent and condense the extract through evaporation to achieve useable levels. Of course you would also be condensing everything else those solvents pull from the tobacco. I've toyed with blending aged PGA and PG extractions and evaporating off the PGA to form a condensed extract but can say the flavor becomes very potent to the point smaller percentages are required to maintain a palatable flavor. The easy solution would be to simply work oneself down to 3mg nic.

Agree that TSNAs are still noteworthy but then so are the nitrosamines found in meat, cheese beer etc.. they are all considered carcinogenic in sufficient dose/exposure. The real question is whether or not our extraction methods leech a high enough concentration of TSNA's to be considered statistically significant. I can't say, nothing I've read specifically analyzed NET.

 

[Bagazo]

Perhaps one could use water or PGA as the solvent and condense the extract through evaporation to achieve useable levels. Of course you would also be condensing everything else those solvents pull from the tobacco. I've toyed with blending aged PGA and PG extractions and evaporating off the PGA to form a condensed extract but can say the flavor becomes very potent to the point smaller percentages are required to maintain a palatable flavor. The easy solution would be to simply work oneself down to 3mg nic.

I've done a couple PG extracts that I use straight. I saw that 40-45% nic extracted into water in a 20 min soak in that study and thought that soaking for less time might do the trick as far as keeping the flavor from being too strong.

The real question is whether or not our extraction methods leech a high enough concentration of TSNA's to be considered statistically significant. I can't say, nothing I've read specifically analyzed NET.

Don't mean to be rude but that seems like a bit of denial, mixed with wishful thinking.

 

[Bunnykiller]

interesting reading so far....

and what if one could extract 100% of nic from a volume of leaf? but one must consider the % of nic by weight in the leaf... seems that nic by weight in leaf weight is ummm 1-2% for avg tobacco? 5% in the rustica ( sp?)
so the way im seeing it, a kilo of leaf results in 5 grams of nic at a "100%" extraction rate... now one needs to extract the 5 grams of nic from the solution to get it "pure", something I dont see many people doing on an everyday basis....

so if one does an extract of say an Oz of tobacco we get 2% nic weight and a 60% extraction rate we end up with what? 1.2% nic by weight solution of original mass of tobacco? not much nic to talk about....

 

[Bagazo]

now one needs to extract the 5 grams of nic from the solution to get it "pure", something I dont see many people doing on an everyday basis....

Not sure where you are going with this, NETs seem to have originally focused on flavor, which is why you won't see people worrying about pure nic. People even went out of their way to heat their extracts to degrade the nic.

so if one does an extract of say an Oz of tobacco we get 2% nic weight and a 60% extraction rate we end up with what? 1.2% nic by weight solution of original mass of tobacco? not much nic to talk about....

I am currently vapìng a water extract that I evaporated down to 0 liquid and then dissolved in 50/50 PG/VG. 336mg of nic at 100% seems talk worthy.

 

[dodari]

Not sure where you are going with this, NETs seem to have originally focused on flavor, which is why you won't see people worrying about pure nic. People even went out of their way to heat their extracts to degrade the nic.


I am currently vapìng a water extract that I evaporated down to 0 liquid and then dissolved in 50/50 PG/VG[/U]. 336mg of nic at 100% seems talk worthy.[/U]

Hi Bagazo,

I have about 130 ml. of a homemade moonshine alcohol (142 proof or 71% ethanol and about 29% water ) extract on some Cavendish tobacco I got. The alcohol will evaporate easy but can I evap. the H2O pretty far down and what do I end up with? Kind of a goo? I was then going to put the goo into PG/VG and try it out. I'd like to get rid of as much water as possible. I'd use Everclear but the cost of my sugar wash shine is very much less than the cost of Everclear.

Thanks

 

[Bagazo]

The alcohol will evaporate easy but can I evap. the H2O pretty far down and what do I end up with? Kind of a goo? I was then going to put the goo into PG/VG and try it out. I'd like to get rid of as much water as possible. I'd use Everclear but the cost of my sugar wash shine is very much less than the cost of Everclear.

One of the things to look out for when evaporating an ethanol/water mixture is that when it starts getting lean on ethanol you will get a goop that starts to settle out. It is almost like pine tar. Just pour off the water or maybe use a syringe or turkey baster (depending on the volume and/or what is on hand).

I have used very low heat and a computer fan to get the water to evaporate but this blog entry by mikepetro, Effects of Heat on Nicotine Degradation, has me thinking that more heat shouldn't be a problem.

 

[dodari]

One of the things to look out for when evaporating an ethanol/water mixture is that when it starts getting lean on ethanol you will get a goop that starts to settle out. It is almost like pine tar. Just pour off the water or maybe use a syringe or turkey baster (depending on the volume and/or what is on hand).

I have used very low heat and a computer fan to get the water to evaporate but this blog entry by mikepetro, Effects of Heat on Nicotine Degradation, has me thinking that more heat shouldn't be a problem.

Thanks B.,

Confirms my guessing pretty much, I haven't got that far yet. I will refer back to your post as process goes along. Also will get into the referenced link you gave.

Once I've got it to the goop stage with the water removed then I would think the PG/VG juice would need be stirred, shaken very vigorously to get the goop dissolved/mixed into the pg/vg mix well. Moderate warming, about 90F would help I would think? Then steep(time passing) would be in order?

Thanks

 

[Bunnykiller]

Not sure where you are going with this, NETs seem to have originally focused on flavor, which is why you won't see people worrying about pure nic. People even went out of their way to heat their extracts to degrade the nic.


I am currently vapìng a water extract that I evaporated down to 0 liquid and then dissolved in 50/50 PG/VG. 336mg of nic at 100% seems talk worthy.

what was the original weight of your tobacco??.... 336mg equates to what? 1/3 a ml?

 

[Bunnykiller]

just thinking.... if the tobacco had 5% nic per weight volume and you did get 100% extraction... to collect 336mg you needed to extract 6.7 kilos of tobacco... thats almost 15 lbs....

 

[twgbonehead]

just thinking.... if the tobacco had 5% nic per weight volume and you did get 100% extraction... to collect 336mg you needed to extract 6.7 kilos of tobacco... thats almost 15 lbs....

um.... try 6.7 grams of tobacco.

 

[Bunnykiller]

yup... missed again... was thinking grams...

 

[Bagazo]

what was the original weight of your tobacco??.... 336mg equates to what? 1/3 a ml?

I was using your numbers. 1.2% from 1oz (28g).

It is 100% so it would make up 10ml at 33.6mg/ml or 100ml at 3.36mg/ml.