**Sub-Ohm Vaping** Discussion, Safety, Battery Info, & Warnings

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Salt&PePPer

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Please excuse me; had issue's on my mobile and responding to this posting - so thank you to whom-ever wrote it

IMO, sub-ohm vaping and accidentally shorted atomizers do apply to APV use. I've had a Vamo sizzle, pop, and permanently fry from a shorted atty that read 1.8 ohms. I don't have any idea if this could have caused a runaway battery, it should not have fired in the first place. Most users will not be able to detect any issues with an APV other than a DOA unit but there is much more that falls under QC no matter how much the PV costs or who makes it. Understanding ohm's law and battery limitation is very important, but any small item containing lots of energy is never going to be 100% safe.


Quality Control is something I find the Chinese Manufacturer's lacking in Severlly! It is also one of the reasom's the Chinese can get you what you want for cheaper... due to the lack of QC! Their made Items wouldn't come anywhere close in passing the German Manufacturer's QC control's. I'm thing Porsche and Mercedes here.
 
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Salt&PePPer

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And to add on: years ago before LiOn in RC car racing many re-sellers would match their cells to be within certain parameters, and what those parameters are I don't remember . But I remember matched battery backs would cost more. It makes sense to keep a set of Lithium's in a pair, especially if they have the same capabilities. AMPS, mAh's so on and so forth.
 
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Salt&PePPer

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Ok, so I've been preaching to all the newbies obsessed with sub-ohming about the potential risks if they don't know what they're doing. I personally only use IMR 18650s or MNKEs and make my could between 0.8 and 1.2 ohms.

Something I would like to know is whether using a fuse/vapesafe would eliminate the possibility of thermal meltdown related to substantial sub-ohming. In other words, is vaping 0.5ohm on a good battery safer with one of these fuses? I imagine they'll probably trip if the battery is running too hard.

Also, I think it might be helpful to noobs if someone listed out each type of 18650 battery and ranges of safe use with each. My goal here is to educate the growing masses of beginners that wholeheartedly believe serious sub-ohm cloud chasing is THE way to go. I've even seem some idiot brag/post about a 0.1ohm set up. With this trend I unfortunately have no doubt in my mind that it's only a matter of time before somebody blows their face off and vaping gets banned as a result. I hope I'm wrong but with ecigs under a lot of global debate I'm sure a publicized incident anywhere on the planet could cause many countries to ban them for safety reasons.

Having Ralph Nader and Public Citizen come and rock our boat stating "Unsafe at any Voltage"!
 

J Wo

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I just watched a video that was made by a lovely young lady trying to make sense of and explain all the terms associated with sub-ohm vaping. She did get it mostly correct, but it was a treat listening to her explain a term and then say "at least that is how I understand it". Thank goodness she did ask alot of questions at her local vape shop before she made the video to assist other "beginners".
 

J Wo

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I saw this on Reddit... Props to SteamMonkey for writing this:


So... I get the vapor envy... I see those enormous clouds of vapor being spit out and think it's pretty cool myself. But here's the thing... those guys probably know what they're doing.

In the video currently getting bumped around on this sub there is one point where I feel like the guy's being responsible. He says "I need to change the battery, I've been vaping on this one for a couple hours"... that was an AW IMR, a battery most people talk about using 'all day'. He swapped it out for a panasonic CGR18650CH unless my eyes aren't working... batteries that are suited to what he's pulling on that mechanical mod.

Do you know why they're suited? Do you know why he's swapping after just a couple of hours? Now... Do you know how many coils he had or how big his air holes were or what device he was using? If you can't answer with 100% certainty the first two questions but CAN answer the last few... you're the person this is for.

Running an 'extreme' vapor set up for the purposes of generating enormous clouds of vapor is risky. You're pushing batteries to or beyond their operational capacity when you throw low ohm, dual coil set ups on a mech.

The mechanical mod was a great idea at first... people were upset by the fact that their egos kept burning up because of the crappy wires and boards in them so they bypassed the limiting factor, those crappy wires and boards. Every chain has a weak link. If you over work an ego the board burns out or the wires fry. The battery doesn't fail... it's not the weak link.

In a mechanical mod with a solid metal piston for a switch and 0 wires, your weak link is the battery... this is not a link you want to break while it's in close proximity to your face or anything you value more than those clouds of vapor which will dissipate a little faster than your checking account if you over tax a battery and create a little time bomb.

(*)Yes, to the people who will say "it's not that easy to burn out an IMR!" you're right, under normal circumstances it's not. But these batteries are NOT intended for what we're using them for. In fact, after recent conversations with Panasonic/Sanyo, Sony, and Samsung, they don't even like the fact that we're USING these batteries because they're not intended for single cell, unprotected use in any device. The fact that they're available can be attributed to modders of flashlights, pen lasers and bicycle electronics. A demand formed around those markets and it was filled by various folks, ecigs came along and the demand skyrocketed.

These batteries are not built for what we're doing to them. I'm not telling you NOT to do it... don't get me wrong, I plan on making a few little fog machines myself. However, I know my batteries, I know what I'm doing, how I'm doing it, and what the implications are and how to mitigate risks. If you don't... ask, learn, figure it out and don't just take some random Youtube video, drill out your RBA caps and start blowing clouds.

I'll give you a couple of tips but it's by no means all the info you need to have in your brain to push these set ups to the limit so please... it's better to learn before you do something to avoid a bad situation than to jump in, have a bad situation then try to figure out why later.

1. Only use IMR batteries and only big ones. Don't do this with an 18350. Go 18650 and don't push your luck.


2. If you don't own a multimeter, go buy one.


3. Know your amp limits on the batteries you're using, check the voltage on those batteries and check the resistance on your coils, learn the math to figure out your amps, watts, volts, etc. Operate within the manufacturer constraints and if you decide to "push it" do it once or twice then stop.


4. Check yoru battery constantly. Take 10 hits on some super vape set up... check the battery. Change it at the appropriate time.


5. If the battery gets hot... stop, take the battery out, set it someplace not flammable, wait 5 minutes and check on the battery, if it's hotter find a safe place to put it where it's not going to do any damage, wait for the battery to finish doing whatever it's gonna do (theres a variety of things that 'could' happen at this point) and when it's done, clean up. If you don't know how to clean up a failed battery, google it.


6. If you make a video of your phat clouds... please, put a disclaimer on it, some info other than 'omg look at teh clouds' that tells brand new vapers that you're doing this with the proper information and that they should not "try this at home" so to speak.



I want y'all to be safe, I also want y'all to have fun which is why I'm not saying "Don't do it!" or being one of 'those guys'. but please, for the love of vaping, don't monkey see monkey do this stuff unless you've educated yourself on all the factors that go into it and how to mitigate risk.






(*)Yeah, I think you missed part of what I was sayin about batteries not being intended for our use.

The majority of the 'nicer' batteries we're picking up, specifically the panasonic, sanyo, efest and AW batteries are not intended for use outside of a protected battery pack. Panasonic does not sell their CGR18650CH for use as 'just a battery' it's sold to pack manufacturers, some of which turn around and sell the bare cells. AW would be one of those folks, Efest relabels panasonic, samsung, and sanyo cells which is why they're good cells... but they're still not intended for single cell use outside of a protected pack.

It doesn't mean they're not safe, if they were dangerous we'd have a lot more instances of them going snap crackle or pop but they need to be treated with respect.
Well said Sir, and thank you.
 

J Wo

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So, I want to say thanks for this incredibly valuable info!

Question:

I have all kinds of batteries, Pannys, Sanyos, Sonys..... Besides what a vendor may tout as it's capacity, is there a way to determine actual mAh and C rating of each battery? Nothing printed on these cells indicates such.

I have been told an RC hobby charger is a decent investment, but the composition of battery chemistry, capacity and etc is something I am still at the beginning/intermediate stages of learning this aspect of vaping. I keep it safe by watching voltage, not using coils less than 1.25Ω and sticking with the above brands.

I have a beautiful mechanical mod that has seen virtually no use exactly for reasons stated above: The last thing I want to test is how the back of my skull looks splattered on the wall, or what kind of throat hit I get from what comes out of those neat holes on the bottom of my mod! I have a Vape-Safe fuse for those times that I do use the mech, but still, one look at the after effects of thermal runaways (over at Candlepower forums) tends to be very sobering!

Anybody have a link to the manufacturer's specs per brand? The closest I have is Sanyo identification based on the color of the ring on the positive, but that only indicates capacity.
What an interesting visual your statement makes. :lol:
 

Cloudd

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To make sh*t complicated:

Look up Thevenin's theorem and Maximum Power Transfer theorem if you want to understand the effects of mod voltage drop on the power allocated on the coils. It's worth noting when you're sub-ohming at resitances close to the voltage drop calculated resistance of your mod. Because at that point, the power would also be transferred considerably to the mod itself, overheating it.

The total resistance (coils + other-than-coils) decides the amount of current going out of the battery. At that fixed current you could use voltage divider rule to see how much potential difference is on each component. This depends on the resistance of the components. Higher resistance parts get more power dissipation.

Say (impossible firgures, ideal supply) your voltage drop is 1 volt when you're running a 5 ohm coil at ten volt supply, 9 volts goes to the coil, 1 volt goes to the mod. Current is 9/5 or 1.8A. 1.8A goes through the mod.

P=IV, so 1.8*1 is the power dissipation of the mod.

V=IR, so 1 = 1.8 R, R(mod) = 1/1.8 ohms, about 0.56 ohms.

(not sure if this makes sense to you guys, I'm taking engineering degree so, yeah, hope it helps)

ADD: I'm quite sure no one has posted this on this thread so I'm posting this.
 

J Wo

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To make sh*t complicated:

Look up Thevenin's theorem and Maximum Power Transfer theorem if you want to understand the effects of mod voltage drop on the power allocated on the coils. It's worth noting when you're sub-ohming at resitances close to the voltage drop calculated resistance of your mod. Because at that point, the power would also be transferred considerably to the mod itself, overheating it.

The total resistance (coils + other-than-coils) decides the amount of current going out of the battery. At that fixed current you could use voltage divider rule to see how much potential difference is on each component. This depends on the resistance of the components. Higher resistance parts get more power dissipation.

Say (impossible firgures, ideal supply) your voltage drop is 1 volt when you're running a 5 ohm coil at ten volt supply, 9 volts goes to the coil, 1 volt goes to the mod. Current is 9/5 or 1.8A. 1.8A goes through the mod.

P=IV, so 1.8*1 is the power dissipation of the mod.

V=IR, so 1 = 1.8 R, R(mod) = 1/1.8 ohms, about 0.56 ohms.

(not sure if this makes sense to you guys, I'm taking engineering degree so, yeah, hope it helps)

ADD: I'm quite sure no one has posted this on this thread so I'm posting this.
I didn't know I would ever hear about Thevenin again, but you are right.
 
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Maxwell_Edison

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I am really upset that "normal" VV VW vaping seems to be taking a backseat to sub ohm vaping. I've even had B/M salesmen tell me VV VW vaping is "old school" and every time I look for a tank or coils at online vendors it seems all they sell now is sub ohm. I hope my style of vaping never goes out of style. Every newsletter I get from vendors, and I get a lot of newsletters, is selling sub ohm mods. I do not want one. I've tried them and their OK, but I don't want that to be my only choice.

Anyway, a lot of sub ohm mods come with internal batteries, (like iTaste MVP 3.0 Pro Kit). It's $100. What do you do while it's charging? Spend $200 for two of them? Is VV VW vaping being faded out? This would make the FDA happy to regulate ecigs IMO. Let sub ohm be placed in the back of the store as a hobby for advanced vapers and keep the easy to use ecigs in the front, especially for beginners.
 

ronnbert

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I am really upset that "normal" VV VW vaping seems to be taking a backseat to sub ohm vaping. I've even had B/M salesmen tell me VV VW vaping is "old school" and every time I look for a tank or coils at online vendors it seems all they sell now is sub ohm. I hope my style of vaping never goes out of style. Every newsletter I get from vendors, and I get a lot of newsletters, is selling sub ohm mods. I do not want one. I've tried them and their OK, but I don't want that to be my only choice.

Anyway, a lot of sub ohm mods come with internal batteries, (like iTaste MVP 3.0 Pro Kit). It's $100. What do you do while it's charging? Spend $200 for two of them? Is VV VW vaping being faded out? This would make the FDA happy to regulate ecigs IMO. Let sub ohm be placed in the back of the store as a hobby for advanced vapers and keep the easy to use ecigs in the front, especially for beginners.
I agree. I myself do sub ohm a majority of the time, but I also enjoy my nautilus(es) as well. When I want good flavor without clouding someplace out, that is my go to preference.

I also work at a B&M, and we have the beginner cabinet first stocked with eGo kits and other similar items. The we have a cabinet further down for the advanced sub ohm tanks, mods, RDAs, etc. We have some customers who will never advance beyond their 1300 VV eGo and we are fine with that.

One thing that gets me is that customers will tell me that other shops said they had to get this mod and sub ohm tank or even mech and RDA and they don't even know what vaping is to begin with. That is destined for bad results, especially when they don't even educate them on how to use their devices.

Sent from my LG-AS730 using Tapatalk
 

J Wo

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I will always enjoy my "beginner" devices. I still use my VV device that came out when the manufacturer didn't even offer VW yet. Don't get me wrong, I make my own coils and do see "how low I can go" :evil::shock: I do make a point to Vape Safe at all times. I still maintain supplies to use my "old school" setup, cause the oldies are still the goodies.

I guess I got off on a tangent there. I agree as a community we should promote "welcome to all comers". LOL :vapor:
 

xpen

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Funny to say, but in a way sub-ohm vaping is now at the same time old school AND the latest trend :D

Old school because much more powerful regulated mods came out - and you don't need to go sub-ohm to achieve more than 20W, as with mechs.

Latest trend because with (most) temperature controlled devices you only use sub-ohm coils. Even though most people won't even notice the sub-ohm angle there.

It's all about choices, in the end.. The more, the better.
 
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Maxwell_Edison

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Choice is nice, of course, and temp control is really awesome for seasoned vapors with knowledge of batteries etc. But that's not ''what it's all about''. We want people to stop smoking and take up vaping. They are used to pulling out a cigarette and lighting it. Simple. But if the alternative is completely incomprehensible they will not even try it. In today's world I think I'd have kept smoking if confronted with this new technology. People don't need to feel it's over their head or they need a college degree in electronics to get off cigarettes and take up vaping. I still use tanks and cartridges on a V/W mod using an 18650 battery. I began with ciggy-likes. The most important thing is keeping it simple and attracting newbies. Too many, if not most, are trying to push the super advanced mods on people who don't understand them. IMHO :)
 

xpen

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Yes simplicity is definitely key to mass adoption, together with performance though.
I was trying to say that 'traditional' sub-ohm vaping (for performance) played a role for us who started years ago, when basic kits were mostly unsatisfactory.
Today it's just for mech aficionados, or unsuspecting TC users - who may even safely ignore they're using sub-ohm at all.
Either way, sub-ohming today is way safer than it used to be just a couple years ago, and that's great achievement.

PS: temperature-controlled vaping is in my opinion the future for simple, hassle-free vaping: replaceable pre-built coils, internal batteries, regulated (and protected) devices, you name it..
It just needs to evolve a bit more, to the point anyone can use the technology without needing to know what's going on under the hood.
Give it some more time, provided stupid anti-vaping laws don't kill it in the meantime..
 
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J Wo

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Right now I'm using the smok cube 2 with the unwell crown tank. Killer tank BTW. But I'm curious on if I should switch to the tfv4 tank? What's your thoughts
I have both the X Cube II mod and the full TFV4 tank setup with the three types of coilheads. I personaly think it's a great tank setup. I would strongly advise anyone who wants to use the TFV4 tank set to screw the coilhead in to the base first, and not to connect it to the upper part of the tank first. this baby will leak like a bad mama jama if there is even the slightest gap between the ciolhead and the base.
Having said that, I personally think that ejuice has better flavor in this tank. You will go through juice kinda quick but it tastes great.
 
Damn it's been a long time since I posted. Sorry 'bout that.

My brother just got his hands on a regulated box (IPV3 LI), with a sub-ohm tank. I can't recall what he said the ohms were; for some reason I keep thinking 0.2, but I feel like that's a lower than what he's actually using.

Anyways... he's wondering about good settings, so I went to show him that Voltage, Watts, and Resistance chart, but it only goes as low as 1.5 ohms. Is there a similar chart for sub-ohms?
 
One of the ways for creating good sub-ohms setup is calculating the warmth of the vape (so-called heat flux) - here is the calculator: Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

If you look below:

heat-flux.jpg


You can see marked area with heat flux calculation (depending od the power)- it ranges from blue (cold cloud) to red (hot cloud).
 

J Wo

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One of the ways for creating good sub-ohms setup is calculating the warmth of the vape (so-called heat flux) - here is the calculator: Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

If you look below:

heat-flux.jpg


You can see marked area with heat flux calculation (depending od the power)- it ranges from blue (cold cloud) to red (hot cloud).

Hey thanks for the question Nate, and the response Ezah. That is a great site. I didn't realize that that was on there, guess I should have browsed the tabs a little more ;). Thanks for the imput folks. Have a great vape.
 

J Wo

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Right now I'm using the smok cube 2 with the unwell crown tank. Killer tank BTW. But I'm curious on if I should switch to the tfv4 tank? What's your thoughts

I have the X Cube II and TFV4 tank (in fact that's what I'm vaping on while typing this). I think the tank is wonderful, it does go through some juice but IMO that is in part to the tank's capacity being smaller than it looks.
 
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