Supply and demand in the e-cig market

[CASEACE79]

I just started thinking about this topic. It seems that the demand is always much higher than the supply in the e-cig market. Every time I turn around I'm either waiting for juice to come back in stock or for piece of hardware to come back in stock sometimes days, weeks, and even months. It has gotten to the point with somethings that I don't even bother anymore. Backwoods Brew RY4 is in stock so infrequently that I don't have time to be checking the site every single day. Which is a shame cause it's one of my favorite juices. It's not just them either. It's everywhere I go. For example the Darwin hasn't been in stock for a long time. Ikenvape is down all the time. As a consumer it gets very tiring and frustrating.This also gives opportunity for people willing to take advantage of others to be able to do so. The price gouging that I've seen the classifieds lately has been absolutely ridiculous. Some suppliers on the forums even try different methods so that there is a much higher supply. In the case of jonboyusmc lavatanks some people were making more than Jon was and they weren't putting in any work except buying and reselling the item. It begs the question just because we could do something should we? Remind yourself next time that you are thinking about buying an item for well over its retail value that it's you buying it at these inflated rates that enable people to continue charging what they do. Here's to hoping that we stop seeing Darwin's sell for $375. The choice is yours!

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[JAY73]

great point that is one reason i will not get verified whats the point i have a hard enough time buying my vape gear as it is why on gods green earth would i let a total stranger rape my wallet thats what i got a wife for lol...

 

[Eddie.Willers]

Your thread title sums up the issue - demand is way ahead of supply. This probably explains why the hardware market is changing so rapidly, with new products, seemingly, every week. As with any case of high demand and low supply, there will be opportunity for those to make money by reselling what they already posses to a willing buyer who is prepared to pay over the odds.

Now, in the case of the classifieds, you say...

...This also gives opportunity for people willing to take advantage of others to be able to do so. The price gouging that I've seen the classifieds lately has been absolutely ridiculous. Some suppliers on the forums even try different methods so that there is a much higher supply. In the case of jonboyusmc lavatanks some people were making more than Jon was and they weren't putting in any work except buying and reselling the item.

But isn't that good old free enterprise at work? You may think it's immoral, unethical, illicit (whatever) but no one is FORCING those buyers to part with their greenbacks for the product they want, are they? Are guns being held to heads and threats of death invoked unless the purchase is made? Of course not - you are simply observing the tenets of supply and demand at work.

It begs the question just because we could do something should we? Remind yourself next time that you are thinking about buying an item for well over its retail value that it's you buying it at these inflated rates that enable people to continue charging what they do...

Aaah! That great fallacy of logic, petitio principii, at work! The price is too high, therefore something MUST be wrong. It must be those eeeevil price gougers in the ECF Classified that stop Darwins from being affordable!

Sir, your aim is laudable but you are pointing at the wrong target.

 

[erictho]

i know one of the reasons why i have a vmod is because i just couldn't deal with the wait for a reo. once they were in stock, they pretty much disappeared.
i've also only recently realized how fortunate i am to have a precise + 18500. i've been watching them for a while, and when i decided to buy mine all other precise +'s offered by happyvaper were in stock. only a few months later and the P+500s are the only p+ available on that site. on the super t subforum it seems like there are more than a few people waiting for more of these.
it's kind of crazy.

 

[thinkingaboutit]

great point that is one reason i will not get verified whats the point i have a hard enough time buying my vape gear as it is why on gods green earth would i let a total stranger rape my wallet thats what i got a wife for lol...

I avoided verification to stop me from spending

But since I am buying a few more things...I submitted my paypal a bit ago. I won't pay more to "have it now" as I have all I need. That's just me, lots of people will.

 

[CASEACE79]

Your thread title sums up the issue - demand is way ahead of supply. This probably explains why the hardware market is changing so rapidly, with new products, seemingly, every week. As with any case of high demand and low supply, there will be opportunity for those to make money by reselling what they already posses to a willing buyer who is prepared to pay over the odds.

Now, in the case of the classifieds, you say...


But isn't that good old free enterprise at work? You may think it's immoral, unethical, illicit (whatever) but no one is FORCING those buyers to part with their greenbacks for the product they want, are they? Are guns being held to heads and threats of death invoked unless the purchase is made? Of course not - you are simply observing the tenets of supply and demand at work.



Aaah! That great fallacy of logic, petitio principii, at work! The price is too high, therefore something MUST be wrong. It must be those eeeevil price gougers in the ECF Classified that stop Darwins from being affordable!

Sir, your aim is laudable but you are pointing at the wrong target.

I was just making an observation. And I was pointing at both parties. The sellers and the buyers. I understand that if demand is high and supply is low that there is an opportunity to make money. The question is should you do it just because you can? I have 6 lavatanks that ran me close to $300. I could make $500+ on them if I really wanted to but I wouldn't feel right because I didn't put in the effort of making them. Hell I could really use the extra cash I'm getting married in Sept. but I would have to look at myself in the mirror every day knowing I took advantage of someone. I also understand that nobody is twisting anyones arm here to buy anything. Just because someone is willing to pay extra doesn't make it moral in my mind. This isn't a business otherwise I would understand more. It is supposed to be a community of people who share a common interest and generally care about each other. I have many friends on the forums and wouldn't think of charging more than what I paid for an item. Even if I never met or talked to them before I wouldn't do it. I was just hoping there were more people out there like that. Guess I may be in the minority here but this world in general is becoming more self indulged and won't do anything unless it benefits them directly. I enjoy these forums because I saw that less here. I had a guy mail me a bottle of juice for my dad that wasn't going to get here in time for Xmas and he refused to let me pay him back. Mark from markspens.com hand makes wooden mods and never sells a single one of them. He gives away every one. That's the vibe I miss. Price gouging is the opposite. Just not good karma in my opinion.


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[scarf-ace]

Nobody has a right to the fruits of my labour. You either buy it for the advertised price, bargain with the seller if they are open to it, or walk away and move on. As Eddie.Willers says,

no one is FORCING those buyers to part with their greenbacks for the product they want, are they?

You want it cheaper than they're selling it for? Make one yourself, or start your own business.

 

[Myk]

It's not only "supply and demand" that drives pricing. It's also "what the market will bear".
Many people have more money than sense.

I don't know why that's especially true on the internet, maybe I have very cheap friends or maybe the people who need to brag about how much they've spent have lost all their friends in real life and only have the internet left to brag on.

 

[mgomez]

Personally, I just order something else if whatever I want isn't in stock. I have the wonderful luck of having weird taste in flavors, so whatever I want is always in stock.

 

[MickeyRat]

I'm going to have to say that I disagree with the OP's philosophy here. It only acknowledges one side of the equation actually. It's easy to think that charging more than retail something like a Darwin or most GG stuff in the classies is wrong. However, without that incentive, the device probably wouldn't be in the classies at all. That would mean that it couldn't be had at any price. So, no one could get them. Is that a desirable outcome? If you don't want to pay the price asked, don't but, don't try to say it's immoral for people to sell for that price when there are people willing to buy.

CASEACE79 if you could make $500 on those lavatanks and you're willing to part with them for that price, I think you should. I don't know why but, apparently people prize them and want them. You are providing a service satisfying that desire and there's nothing immoral about accepting the proper compensation. If you ask for improper compensation, they won't sell. So, no moral hazard exists.

This OP's philosophy is not only wrong, in some cases it's dangerous. Sometimes when there's a disaster, you'll hear about someone getting a truck load of plywood and going in there and selling it at $75 a sheet and everyone's outraged. The DA promptly steps in and stops it, everyone cheers, and he probably gets re-elected. The problem is the DA stopped something else too. If someone's willing to pay $75 a sheet for plywood, they probably need it pretty bad and that DA just saw to it that they couldn't get it. That could very well mean that someone was less safe because they couldn't get that plywood.

 

[MaxUT]

Left largely to itself, a free market will continually adjust prices and supply based on the countless decisions of buyers and sellers. The result is good value and an adequate supply.

 

[Damian]

I cannot express how surprisingly refreshing this thread has been. I fully expected to read posts about how the government needs to come in and regulate prices and "we have a right to this and that".

As entrepreneurs catch up to this new market, you will see supply rise, prices fall, quality improve, and innovation continue. I can't think of another hobby that changes and innovates as fast as vaping has - that's a good thing.

 

[scarf-ace]

I cannot express how surprisingly refreshing this thread has been. I fully expected to read posts about how the government needs to come in and regulate prices and "we have a right to this and that".

As entrepreneurs catch up to this new market, you will see supply rise, prices fall, quality improve, and innovation continue. I can't think of another hobby that changes and innovates as fast as vaping has - that's a good thing.

Damian, I don't mean to pile on the OP who was expressing himself, but the core of what is wrong with his post can be expressed in this quote:

Just because someone is willing to pay extra doesn't make it moral in my mind.

There are no morals involved. None.
Seller wants to offload the mod. He gets a high price for it, possibly to buy another mod, possibly to pay for food for his starving family, whatever. His reasons are his own.
Buyer wants a highly sought-after and rare product. She's willing to forgo something else in her life so that she can pay extra money for it.

It is 100% a business transaction. Buyer is happy. Seller is happy. Yet they shouldn't do it because it makes someone else feel morally icky?

One might as well moan about the paucity of cheap Picassos or Shakespeare First Folios. They are valuable because they are rare and lots of people want them. Hence, expensive.

 

[scarf-ace]

Apologies, double post.

 

[unloaded]

I have 6 lavatanks that ran me close to $300. I could make $500+ on them if I really wanted to but I wouldn't feel right because I didn't put in the effort of making them.

I bet you've got about 10 PMs from people wanting to buy one of your tanks. That pretty much sums up the situation. If you think the prices are high in the Classys, where the seller sets the price, imagine if ebay allowed the stuff on there and the buyers were setting the price. People would be buying here in the classifieds, at the prices that offend you, and making huge profits on ebay.

 

[mostapha]

I have a weird sense of camaraderie with the OP, but mostly that's because I really want an Empire……have since I first saw one. I don't like the idea of paying $200+ for something that originally sold for $130, but if they're not making them anymore, I honestly think they should probably just raise their price enough to make them profitable…maybe pay the guy who machines them more.

But, realistically, people flip products, cars, real estate, etc. all the time. They're making money based off their haggling skills or their connections or their ability to buy in one market and move something to another. That's a part of how commerce works. $5 is just plain worth less in the ritzy part of Manhattan than it is in rural Arkansas. When the price of a domestic beer is $15+, your $5 bill is basically worthless……maybe a tip for a bathroom attendant or a valet or something, but that's it. In rural Arkansas, you can buy things.

And that's just how markets with wide-spanning currencies work.

The internet has changed the geographic locality aspect of it, but it's the same kind of thing.

 

[CASEACE79]

Trust me i get the whole mark up thing. Im a manager at a resort retail establishment. The difference is that the people you are selling to are supposed to be friends. People you would see at a meet up or sit down and have coffee with. If you are in this to make a dollar fine become a supplier. I have no issue with that at all. What I do have an issue with is someone being your buddy on a thread and then trying to make a large profit of you in the next breath. Ive seen people selling lava tanks for twice what they paid. Thats just not who i am and not who i thought a lot of people on here are. Sad that the trend doesn't support thinking.

 

[mostapha]

It does support thinking, just along a different line of morality/ethics than those to which you adhere.

If anyone says "this is the only way you're going to get one," for a product that was still being made…even sporadically…that would be more clear-cut. And if that's the case, I think you're right. But you're not just paying for the product……you're paying for the owner to have been in the right place at the right time to find/buy it, had the money available, to part with his device/product, and–ultimately–to deliver to you something that you want and that you couldn't or wouldn't find elsewhere.

People defend mall kiosks selling predominantly old, inferior devices at outrageous prices because they can bring people into vaping……and I think they do more harm than someone who flips a lava tank or empire for 50% above its initial cost for the simple reason that if you're on ECF……you at least have an avenue by which to figure out what the things are worth at which points in time.

I was ...... off the first time I browsed the past sales threads and saw what Empire Mods had sold for, but that's just because I want one (at some point) and would rather pay $120ish than some of those prices. But there may come a time when I'd rather have one than wait for the normal price if they decide to make more. And I choose when/if that time comes, not the seller who posts it for $300.

 

[Uncle Willie]

A Sale requires a willing buyer and a willing seller .. and there are price points in this industry that fit about any pocket book ..

And, BTW, remind me what a years worth of analogs costs .. ??

 

[thevapepastor]

Ok, I get the whole capitalist, free market, right to sell etc etc, and I am glad to live in a country where these things are possible!
If a person wants to sell/buy a darwin for 575.00(seen it happen) so be it, and thankfully they have the right to do so.

Now that being said I would like to bring up a different aspect of this.

At what point in time do these hardware makers need to realize that the high demand is there and that they should step their game up? I mean truthfully I would love to own a Darwin, I would love to own a Zenisis, a few lava tanks etc etc but they simply are not available, and I using my God given right to choose to not buy something that is way over priced, so as a result I will just take my money elsewhere.
I understand wanting to maintain the build integrity, but come one now...seriously? I recently saw somewhere here on the forums that the Zenisis has almost a year waiting list...I was thinking about getting on the list until i read that. And the Darwin has been out of stock for God knows how long. it just seems like bad business to me. Their is a pretty thick line between out sourcing your design to china and hiring 3 or 4 more guys to help you crank out more of your ever so lusted after products.
I would venture to say that the Provari would still of coarse be popular, but it would not be the staple that it is today, if it were not so readily available.
What's more valuable, Staple or Legend?
Just my two pennies.