Synthetic Nicotine

[Rossum]

$4,500.00 per kilo (approx 1 liter if I understand it properly)

The density of nicotine is 1.01 g/cm3 so for all intents and purposes, it weighs one kilogram per liter. But that pricing is presumably for pure, undiluted stuff, not the 10% (100 mg/ml) most of us buy. So figure $450 / liter of 10%. That's still 5-10 times as expensive as nicotine extracted from tobacco.

So unless it has some big advantage when it comes to regulations, most people (and e-liquid makers) simply aren't going to buy it.

 

[AttyPops]

The density of nicotine is 1.01 g/cm3 so for all intents and purposes, it weighs one kilogram per liter. But that pricing is presumably for pure, undiluted stuff, not the 10% (100 mg/ml) most of us buy. So figure $450 / liter of 10%. That's still 5-10 times as expensive as nicotine extracted from tobacco.

So unless it has some big advantage when it comes to regulations, most people (and e-liquid makers) simply aren't going to buy it.

Yeah, I did that math already, you missed the edit.

My point is that competition and volume should/could reduce that price.

But we're back to "we don't want to make it too safe, now do we?" Making it "safest we can" wouldn't be vilified enough.

Remember the FSC crap? I think it's all about the deterrents.

 

[Rossum]

My point is that competition and volume should/could reduce that price.

There will only be competition and volume if there's something desirable about the product.

 

[AttyPops]

If you read both links, the desirability theoretically comes from the lack of trace nastiness.

And yes, I said "theoretically". The market will have to decide. Often, though, price trumps common sense.

 

[Rossum]

If you read both links, the desirability theoretically comes from the lack of trace nastiness.

And yes, I said "theoretically". The market will have to decide. Often, though, price trumps common sense.

Common sense tells me not to worry too much about "trace" stuff. The dose makes the poison.

 

[AttyPops]

Common sense tells me not to worry too much about "trace" stuff. The dose makes the poison.

It isn't the poison (that's the nic, lol) that's the concern. It's the mutagenic carcinogens.
One cell....

I get that degree of exposure changes odds, but still.

 

[Eskie]

It isn't the poison (that's the nic, lol) that's the concern. It's the mutagenic carcinogens.
One cell....

I get that degree of exposure changes odds, but still.

I’d like to see testing on synthetic nic to see what traces of precursor chemicals are still present in the final product. 100% pure is pretty much a fiction in chemical synthesis. Just look at the number of high blood pressure pills and now Tagamet that have been recalled from the market due to trace carcinogens present in the final product. Not saying impossible, but it’s a pretty high and expensive bar to reach.

 

[AttyPops]

Yep. Agree.
It all depends on WHAT they are.

Anyway, this is all mostly academic until the costs go down. I understand Rossum's point, but I think that the over-emphasis on price vs quality is worth some small discussion.

 

[Rossum]

I think that the over-emphasis on price vs quality is worth some small discussion.

Personally I wound't mind paying the going rate for it I thought that it was actually better. Even at $500 / liter of 100 mg, it would still be a screaming bargain compared to smoking. A liter of 100 mg lasts me roughly four years. So $125 per year for nicotine? Pffft; that's nothing. I used to spend $90 a week on cigs, and that was six years ago.

However, the only thing we've got right now is some marketing claims on a website or two. They remind me of the claims that a certain US based nicotine extractor makes with their supercritical CO2 extracted nic. I bought 120 ml sample-sized bottles from them recently and was underwhelmed.

 

[englishmick]

Common sense tells me not to worry too much about "trace" stuff. The dose makes the poison.

So far I haven't come across any reason to worry about the safety of the nic we currently use.

As far as the cost of synthetic nic goes, it would be quite a big deal for those of us who buy it in bulk. But it might not make much difference to the price of a bottle of pre-mixed juice. We mixers already know that ingredients are a rather small piece of the cost of a bottle in the shop. The cost of the nic in that bottle is a small piece of a small piece. Increasing it by a factor of 5 or 10 might only add a few cents to the final price, especially if you are talking about 3mg or 6mg juice.

Doubt they would let it slip by them anyway though.

 

[Eskie]

So far I haven't come across any reason to worry about the safety of the nic we currently use.

As far as the cost of synthetic nic goes, it would be quite a big deal for those of us who buy it in bulk. But it might not make much difference to the price of a bottle of pre-mixed juice. We mixers already know that ingredients are a rather small piece of the cost of a bottle in the shop. The cost of the nic in that bottle is a small piece of a small piece. Increasing it by a factor of 5 or 10 might only add a few cents to the final price, especially if you are talking about 3mg or 6mg juice.

Doubt they would let it slip by them anyway though.

If you run a medium sized mixing business, you can buy a 55 gallon drum of 100 mg nic from Heartland for $8,000. Makes an awful lot of brand X. It might be a small portion of the cost of the final product, but do you suddenly want to be investing $20,000 or more for the same drum just to have synthetic without any really decent reason for the higher investment of capital? We might buy in liters and justify a higher price as a one time investment that will see us through several years. If you're selling lots of commercial juice, you're going to feel the hit on your investment in raw materials a bit more, and be less interested in the absence of clear benefit in adding value to your product. Right now, I don't see it.

 

[AttyPops]

It won't work if cheap (not clean) nic is allowed to undercut the market.

For synthetic nic to "work" it would have to be some sort of requirement. Maybe just "No (or max) _____ can be in nic". Where ____ is a list of things that are deemed to be carcinogenic. That would level the playing field such that they'd either have to have one hell of a good cleanup process for the tobacco extractions to eliminate TSNAs or use synthetic.

And like Rossum says, how much is too much or too little?

 

[r77r7r]

There is some syn that came out a few years ago I think. It sounded great but flopped for some reason. Over-seas seller. Israel?

 

[zoiDman]

There is some syn that came out a few years ago I think. It sounded great but flopped for some reason. Over-seas seller. Israel?

I remember in the lead up to August 2016 that a Company was going to offer Synthetic Nicotine. There was quite a Buzz here over it. And Many thought it would be the Work-a-Round to Deeming everyone was Looking For!

But when it was Released, and people saw that it was like 400 Bucks for a 500ml Bottle of 100mg/ml, well, let's just say it Didn't go over so well.

400 Bucks buys a Lot of Cobalt Blue bottles. And Nicotine Base to Fill your Cobalt Blue bottles. And Maybe even a Small Freezer to put the Whole Kit n' Kaboodle in.