Temerature Controlled Devices?

[Ryedan]

I'm looking at an electric kettle right now. Has no coil and no wick. No dry hit either - if there's no liquid it ain't heating. Best coil is no coil?

Electric kettles have a coil. It's just a bit bigger than the ones we vape

They don't need a wick though. The coils are submerged in the juice. Let one that's not protected evaporate all the water and you get a dry hit that could burn the house down. The good thing is most are temperature limited.

Hmm, sounds a lot like a PV

 

[RCHagy74]

The one and only company innovating to address FDA concerns and everyone treats them like .....

Pretty, beautiful, delicate roses?

 

[dr g]

Pretty, beautiful, delicate roses?

(.... is the ECF censoring)

 

[RCHagy74]

(.... is the ECF censoring)

I will let you go first and find out.

 

[mcclintock]

I think the real reason for Evolv using nickel has to do with wanting to make an actual temperature setting that is fairly accurate, not just an arbitrary scale, which the DNA40 can also do with titanium already.

I see their method as only one implementation of the basic concept, even just electronically. It's more than just being able to let the wick go dry, there is a fundamental instability in vaping devices in using the juice characteristics themselves to be the only thing that regulates temperature to a reference, beyond merely a relative higher-or-lower. However, I would consider if the future does require nickel, it may need to move beyond DIY, RBAs and 510 connections.

 

[Rossum]

I think the real reason for Evolv using nickel has to do with wanting to make an actual temperature setting that is fairly accurate, not just an arbitrary scale, which the DNA40 can also do with titanium already.

A higher TCR does get you more precision. Titanium's TCR is only about 2/3 that of nickel, so if the board is accurate to +/- 10F with nickel, it could be accurate to +/- 15F with titanium. There is no reason why software couldn't be written that would correctly show the temperature of a titanium coil in °F or °C rather than an "arbitrary scale", albeit the precision would be somewhat less.

I wonder if that lower precision wouldn't be mitigated by the fact that titanium coils don't need to be of such low resistance. That extremely low coil resistance with nickel means that every other bit of stray resistance between the board and the coil has a strong influence on the what the board thinks the coil's resistance is and therefore decreases "accuracy".

We know that a lot of the issues people have with inconsistent performance when using nickel coils are in fact due to stray resistance between the board and the coil. Funny thing is, I have no issues with inconsistent performance using my DNA40 (a gdeal printed bottom feeder that I built myself) using titanium coils.

 

[Marc411]

What I've learned about titanium comes mostly from this site and honestly from following most of your posts on the subject Rossum. Just so I don't get challenges to come up with any elaborate studies or proof I will say up front these are just my experience using Ni200 vs TI.


I use 24ga almost exclusively, 6 wraps on a 3mm mandrel nets me .21Ω. It is the only wire I use for TC because of it's consistency and is very easy to work with because of the thickness of the wire. Connection with different atomizers posts don't present an issue and I can use the holes in posts to make my connection with damaging the wire.

Regardless of the topper 19 watts @ 320° gives me the vape I enjoy and stays right on the edge of TC.

I placed a new TI build in my N22 last night at .20Ω and this morning after a night of recalibration it's .21Ω and vaping very nicely. In my experiences I don't get the same fluctuations I did with Ni200 regardless of the gauge of the wire I used. Ni200 was just to inconsistent.

Ti just made the TC experience so much more pleasing and less of a PITA. There is really very little difference for me using 24ga Ti over kanthal, both are easy to work with, produce a consistent vapor and fairly fault free.

Look for most of my 30ga and 28 to show up on the classifieds one of these days

 

[edyle]

I think the real reason for Evolv using nickel has to do with wanting to make an actual temperature setting that is fairly accurate, not just an arbitrary scale, which the DNA40 can also do with titanium already.

I see their method as only one implementation of the basic concept, even just electronically. It's more than just being able to let the wick go dry, there is a fundamental instability in vaping devices in using the juice characteristics themselves to be the only thing that regulates temperature to a reference, beyond merely a relative higher-or-lower. However, I would consider if the future does require nickel, it may need to move beyond DIY, RBAs and 510 connections.

It certainly is only one implementation of the basic concept; in fact I can see where somebody else will make a temperature control device that doesn't even tell you the temperature at all; it just lets you adjust for "+" (hotter) or "-" (cooler) without presuming to know which wire you use but instead merely measure change in resistance; you can just adjust to taste.

Looking at resistivity and temperature coeficients, the numbers seem to indicate that you could just as well use mild steel instead of nickel.

 

[classwife]

New Sub !!



Moved to Temperature Control from Variable Voltage APV Discussion

 

[edyle]

A higher TCR does get you more precision. Titanium's TCR is only about 2/3 that of nickel, so if the board is accurate to +/- 10F with nickel, it could be accurate to +/- 15F with titanium. There is no reason why software couldn't be written that would correctly show the temperature of a titanium coil in °F or °C rather than an "arbitrary scale", albeit the precision would be somewhat less.

I wonder if that lower precision wouldn't be mitigated by the fact that titanium coils don't need to be of such low resistance. That extremely low coil resistance with nickel means that every other bit of stray resistance between the board and the coil has a strong influence on the what the board thinks the coil's resistance is and therefore decreases "accuracy".

We know that a lot of the issues people have with inconsistent performance when using nickel coils are in fact due to stray resistance between the board and the coil. Funny thing is, I have no issues with inconsistent performance using my DNA40 (a gdeal printed bottom feeder that I built myself) using titanium coils.

Yes, that is exactly the big problem with the nickel; if you could do the job with a wire at double the ohms but half the precision it might still end up being better.

And the fact that you use titanium illustrates the feasibility of being able to use TC effectively without needing to know the actual temperature.

 

[Ryedan]

I use 24ga almost exclusively, 6 wraps on a 3mm mandrel nets me .21Ω. It is the only wire I use for TC because of it's consistency and is very easy to work with because of the thickness of the wire. Connection with different atomizers posts don't present an issue and I can use the holes in posts to make my connection with damaging the wire.

Regardless of the topper 19 watts @ 320° gives me the vape I enjoy and stays right on the edge of TC.

Marc, does the setup you talk about above heat up quickly, or is there noticeable delay?

 

[Equality 7-2521]

[

I think it's primarily a question of not producing aldehydes. A coil that's not over-powered using a wick that can keep up with it probably doesn't produce any significant quantity of them anyway, but temperature limiting should ensure it, no matter how badly the user screws up.[/QUOTE]


But wouldn't someone who is an experinced vapor know how to build a set up that wicks properly, and a coil that is suitable so as not to burn juice..

 

[peraspera]

....
But wouldn't someone who is an experinced vapor know how to build a set up that wicks properly, and a coil that is suitable so as not to burn juice..

Dr. Farsalinos will be studying at what levels vapers are able to detect toxic substances in their vapor. He starts discussing this at 29:44 in his interview with Phil Busardo.

Brandon from Evolv spoke about high temperatures producing a superheated layer of vaper that forms next to the coil which prevents the coil from being cooled starting at 41:11 in his Vapour Trails/Haze Hour's Dec. 4 interview. This layer is probably producing substances we would rather not vape before getting into dry hit territory.

 

[Marc411]

Marc, does the setup you talk about above heat up quickly, or is there noticeable delay?

It heats up fairly quickly, it's producing nice vapor within a second or so and the third day the build Ω's are holding solid.

 

[dr g]

But wouldn't someone who is an experinced vapor know how to build a set up that wicks properly, and a coil that is suitable so as not to burn juice..

Brandon from Evolv spoke about high temperatures producing a superheated layer of vaper that forms next to the coil which prevents the coil from being cooled starting at 41:11 in his Vapour Trails/Haze Hour's Dec. 4 interview. This layer is probably producing substances we would rather not vape before getting into dry hit territory.

^ that. most people, as evidenced by this thread, do not actually realize how hot their kanthal coils are getting. There is a big difference between kanthal "not burning juice" and actually controlling temperature.

 

[Ian444]

^ that. most people, as evidenced by this thread, do not actually realize how hot their kanthal coils are getting. There is a big difference between kanthal "not burning juice" and actually controlling temperature.

I find that to be a fear mongering statement, in that, a relative newb to vaping might be turned off vaping because "no one knows whats in the vapor". Sound familiar?

No experienced vaper vapes burning juice so the 'difference between kanthal "not burning juice" and actually controlling temperature' is just another fear claim. In the video, Brandon was relating to high power vaping.

ETA: after using two TC devices I concluded that TC is not necessary or even desirable for my purposes. How about letting people use their taste buds and personal experience instead of scare tactics.

 

[retird]

I find that to be a fear mongering statement, in that, a relative newb to vaping might be turned off vaping because "no one knows whats in the vapor". Sound familiar?

No experienced vaper vapes burning juice so the 'difference between kanthal "not burning juice" and actually controlling temperature' is just another fear claim. In the video, Brandon was relating to high power vaping.

ETA: after using two TC devices I concluded that TC is not necessary or even desirable for my purposes. How about letting people use their taste buds and personal experience instead of scare tactics.

That's what is great about vaping.... you can choose how and what you vape...I choose TC.....I choose to look forward to the studies results....you choose to conclude TC is not necessary or even desirable for your purposes....vape on an enjoy...I do not take issue with your personal decision and hope you don't with mine... after all we each can make up our own minds...I conclude that TC is safer for me....

 

[Ian444]

And what if the study concludes that temp control done poorly is worse than a good mech setup? The results aren't out yet, so no use making early conclusions...

 

[retird]

And what if the study concludes that temp control done poorly is worse than a good mech setup? The results aren't out yet, so no use making early conclusions...

Hopefully the study will answer the "what if".....I think a screen glitch is a far cry from TC done poorly ...maybe I missed something...

 

[SavePaperVapor]

Hopefully the study will answer the "what if".....I think a screen glitch is a far cry from TC done poorly ...maybe I missed something...

I think he's talking about devices like the Smok m80. I can get my rdna to work properly every time, but that Smok is a liability and should not be used unless you really know what your doing. It will control the temp as long as the wick is damp enough though.