Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[MacTechVpr]

...Enter the tensioned micro coil...

Hey Russ, thanks for opening this great thread on tensioned macro/micro/nano/and yes…more coils. I'm sure it's going to be a wild ride.



Happy Holidays!

 

[Moxienator]

Well, so I got through a tank, and it was gunked. This is better than the usual half tank with 28g. Also, I suspect I used too much rayon, as I'm still learning the ropes with it (so to speak). Dry burned and rewicked. Update will follow once tank is emptied.

sent via Droid Mini

 

[Moxienator]

Ha! So its been a maddening couple of days. I couldn't get the wick right after dry burning my coil. Yes, it was black, but kind of a glossy black - odd flavor, but not burnt per se.

So.... I rewick my KFL maybe 15 times in a row last night trying to get it just right, but NOTHING I mean NOTHING works.

Today, I get to the boiler room, spread out my stuff, and decide I'm going to make a fresh coil and start from scratch. 8 wraps of 29g on the custom jig arm later, I go to put it on the deck. Its right here I realize that the arm I'm wrapping on is a true 5/64", but the piece I'm using to put it on the deck isn't. Its just a hair larger.

LMFAO, I build it with a 5/64" piece from my custom jig arm, wick it, and lo and behold, its great.

I'm Vaping it right now, and it's crackling, not hissing, slightly warm, not cold, and doesn't taste like a dirty sock.

I need to perfect the wicking, but this one is golden so far. I may also try removing a wrap just to bump up the heat a bit, but this coil is great! I'll give it till the tank runs dry and then I'll let you know how gunked it is!

sent via Droid Mini

 

[MacTechVpr]

...Today, I get to the boiler room, spread out my stuff, and decide I'm going to make a fresh coil and start from scratch. 8 wraps of 29g on the custom jig arm later, I go to put it on the deck. Its right here I realize that the arm I'm wrapping on is a true 5/64", but the piece I'm using to put it on the deck isn't. Its just a hair larger.

You were ever so slightly distorting the coil. And it's that critical. That's why I've been focusing new vapers on tensioned for the past year. Symmetry is unavoidably necessary to a good vape. We can go a million places from there and determine the value once we get our arms around that. And it'll work with anything you can put through it.

Congrats.

Good luck all. Happy Holidays.



p.s. Let us know how it holds up. I run every wind of wick thru mine.

 

[MrStik]

Got my Gizmo... now to find time to wind some coils

 

[havok333]

My artistic wire gizmo didn't come with a 5/64 mandrel so had to bend up one myself. I find I use that size more often than even the 1/16 mandrel these days.

 

[Moxienator]

My artistic wire gizmo didn't come with a 5/64 mandrel so had to bend up one myself. I find I use that size more often than even the 1/16 mandrel these days.

I made my own as well. In the KFL, it works great. The 1/16" didn't leave enough room for wicking, so the thing flooded all the time. The thing I've noticed is that the "micro" size isn't what gives a ton of vapor - it seems to be more connected to the tension of the coil itself.

Here's my coil after 1 tank. I rewicked with more rayon stuffed in there this time.

sent via Droid Mini

 

[twgbonehead]

Super_X,

The leg-holdown (washers, wing-nut, and thumbscrew) was great.
I think you missed one aspect of how the gizmo works, or at least can work. When you wound your coil, it was on an open area of the rod.

That's not how I do it; I wind a turn or two on the open rod, and then press the handle in so the wire is feeding right against the face of the bracket. This way, the tension in the wire makes it conform to the cylindrical shape of the rod, but the inward pressure you put on the handle forces the coils to pack tightly together; you are compressing the next turn between the previous turn and the bracket.

This really might not be clear; if anyone has ever done wire-wrapping (in the electronics-prototype sense) you probably get what I'm referring to. Each turn of the wire has to squeeze in under (or, with wire-wrap, over) the previous turn, which compresses the coil very tightly. With your approach (which obviously works, don't get me wrong) you are using the tension on the wire to both compress the coil, and to get it to conform to the right cylindrical shape. But you're wasting the advantage of the bracket as a lateral-dimension shaper.

I did do a dremel-polish of the holes in the bracket; but I probably didn't need to; it was pretty clean when I got it. (Polish the surface of the bracket so there were no burrs from the holes).

Am I making any sense here?

 

[Moxienator]

I do that too. The face of the bracket helps keep it uniform.

sent via Droid Mini

 

[super_X_drifter]

Super_X,

The leg-holdown (washers, wing-nut, and thumbscrew) was great.
I think you missed one aspect of how the gizmo works, or at least can work. When you wound your coil, it was on an open area of the rod.

That's not how I do it; I wind a turn or two on the open rod, and then press the handle in so the wire is feeding right against the face of the bracket. This way, the tension in the wire makes it conform to the cylindrical shape of the rod, but the inward pressure you put on the handle forces the coils to pack tightly together; you are compressing the next turn between the previous turn and the bracket.

This really might not be clear; if anyone has ever done wire-wrapping (in the electronics-prototype sense) you probably get what I'm referring to. Each turn of the wire has to squeeze in under (or, with wire-wrap, over) the previous turn, which compresses the coil very tightly. With your approach (which obviously works, don't get me wrong) you are using the tension on the wire to both compress the coil, and to get it to conform to the right cylindrical shape. But you're wasting the advantage of the bracket as a lateral-dimension shaper.

I did do a dremel-polish of the holes in the bracket; but I probably didn't need to; it was pretty clean when I got it. (Polish the surface of the bracket so there were no burrs from the holes).

Am I making any sense here?

Hell yeah you're making sense. I will give that a shot next time I wind. Thank you.

 

[havok333]

Super_X,

The leg-holdown (washers, wing-nut, and thumbscrew) was great.
I think you missed one aspect of how the gizmo works, or at least can work. When you wound your coil, it was on an open area of the rod.

That's not how I do it; I wind a turn or two on the open rod, and then press the handle in so the wire is feeding right against the face of the bracket. This way, the tension in the wire makes it conform to the cylindrical shape of the rod, but the inward pressure you put on the handle forces the coils to pack tightly together; you are compressing the next turn between the previous turn and the bracket.

This really might not be clear; if anyone has ever done wire-wrapping (in the electronics-prototype sense) you probably get what I'm referring to. Each turn of the wire has to squeeze in under (or, with wire-wrap, over) the previous turn, which compresses the coil very tightly. With your approach (which obviously works, don't get me wrong) you are using the tension on the wire to both compress the coil, and to get it to conform to the right cylindrical shape. But you're wasting the advantage of the bracket as a lateral-dimension shaper.

I did do a dremel-polish of the holes in the bracket; but I probably didn't need to; it was pretty clean when I got it. (Polish the surface of the bracket so there were no burrs from the holes).

Am I making any sense here?

I've been doing the same!
[emoji41]

 

[Flavored]

Super_X,

The leg-holdown (washers, wing-nut, and thumbscrew) was great.
I think you missed one aspect of how the gizmo works, or at least can work. When you wound your coil, it was on an open area of the rod.

That's not how I do it; I wind a turn or two on the open rod, and then press the handle in so the wire is feeding right against the face of the bracket. This way, the tension in the wire makes it conform to the cylindrical shape of the rod, but the inward pressure you put on the handle forces the coils to pack tightly together; you are compressing the next turn between the previous turn and the bracket.

This really might not be clear; if anyone has ever done wire-wrapping (in the electronics-prototype sense) you probably get what I'm referring to. Each turn of the wire has to squeeze in under (or, with wire-wrap, over) the previous turn, which compresses the coil very tightly. With your approach (which obviously works, don't get me wrong) you are using the tension on the wire to both compress the coil, and to get it to conform to the right cylindrical shape. But you're wasting the advantage of the bracket as a lateral-dimension shaper.

I did do a dremel-polish of the holes in the bracket; but I probably didn't need to; it was pretty clean when I got it. (Polish the surface of the bracket so there were no burrs from the holes).

Am I making any sense here?

I do that too. The face of the bracket helps keep it uniform.

sent via Droid Mini

Hell yeah you're making sense. I will give that a shot next time I wind. Thank you.

I've been doing the same!
[emoji41]

Yeah, that's the ticket. Way better explanation than I gave:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/538365-coil-gizmo-artistic-wire-3.html#post13503514

Any amount of tension you want . . . I use needle nose to hold the wire and pull pretty hard as I crank. The coils are nice and tight every time. You do waste an inch of wire when you pull those loose winds off.

SuperX will have a motor driven version applying a couple hundred pounds of tension once he sees he can do that without bending all his mandrels.

 

[super_X_drifter]

Yeah, that's the ticket. Way better explanation than I gave:

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/reos-mods/538365-coil-gizmo-artistic-wire-3.html#post13503514

Any amount of tension you want . . . I use needle nose to hold the wire and pull pretty hard as I crank. The coils are nice and tight every time. You do waste an inch of wire when you pull those loose winds off.

SuperX will have a motor driven version applying a couple hundred pounds of tension once he sees he can do that without bending all his mandrels.

LOL. Your right about the mandrel deflecting. I also think theres a fine line between too much tension and just right. And it's not right before the wire breaks

 

[MacTechVpr]

I made my own as well. In the KFL, it works great. The 1/16" didn't leave enough room for wicking, so the thing flooded all the time. The thing I've noticed is that the "micro" size isn't what gives a ton of vapor - it seems to be more connected to the tension of the coil itself.

Here's my coil after 1 tank. I rewicked with more rayon stuffed in there this time.

sent via Droid Mini

That's a great coil Mox. Curious though as I'm sure you wound it on a mandrel that it seems to have a taper in the pic.

You're absolutely right, regardless of the wick the amount of deflection or compression of the wick is critical. Some like Eko are very intolerant of too much pressure and choke. Nextel is awesome and allows a wide variation. KGD and rayon are sensitive to having a precise deflection or they don't perform. I personally haven't found either to flow well under power with light wicking. But both will definitely scorch and gunk freely if over-pressured. Cotton and similar are all difficult and why I recommend synthetics to newcomers. Frankly, even silica if you can wick it. Yep, I get those that are happy with silica and I'll go there if they'll try a proper electrical wind. Next step Eko and other stuff including rayon because I think it's important for us to try all these things. They all work to a greater or lesser degree with different juices and for different reasons.

And yeah, just like a crimped garden hose you can induce more velocity in a wick by compressing it but not necessarily flow. So compression on the narrow side of possible diameters will give you that and it translates to more diffuse vapor (dryer) but not especially more vapor.

I'm finding 2.5mm Ø to be a great overall middle-ground for larger platforms like the MutX, Patriot, etc. with good solid beds and posts. Working quite well for verticals in jenny's and vert drippers and deep wells.

Careful with over-tensioning any type of wind. Consistently fouls the vape. If strictly cloud production is your objective the experiment is wide open. It will contribute greatly to diffusing vaped juice. Most of us can't handle that kind of dry heat, or would want to. The right level of tension just beyond adhesion will get the most uniform oxidation possible. At the right Ø for the device and chosen wick a t.m.c. will guarantee the optimum density of vapor for that configuration, period. We can diffuse the air with draw or drip tip to our preference once we get there.

Basically that's the strategy mox. It only fails to up the efficiency on braids and multi-wire like twisted as you can't maximize the close contact necessary for oxidation. So you'll see variations in the heat output across the coil and an unpredictable degree of diffusion as a result. And at the end of the day it's the most complete vaporization of the flow we've built for that we're after.

Good luck mox.

Happy Holidays all.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Jeremy at RBA sent me a 12" piece of 3mm along with a replacement 2mm piece. Built a couple of 24awg 9/8's on 7/64 netting .46 ohm for my tobh atty. The less than spectacular vape lead me to investigate. Nonuniform deflection of wick against coil id. Reamed the hole with needle but to no avail. I can literally see daylight through the coil between the wick and coil id in a place or two between weave bundles. Investigated the wick more closely. It's virtually non compressible in one direction and severely ovalized. Normal? Muzichead recommended trying 2.5mm instead of 7/64. What say the Mac?

cig:

Hey cig. Posting an excerpt as I think it may be helpful to some.

Do an adv search on ECF for Nextel AND XC AND diameter and you'll find 2.5mm happily in the middle. 2.38mm (pic below) is about the narrowest you can wick effectively without choking it and 7/64" is too loose…

The 3mm will kinda break-in and swell into 7/64" but even if quite saturated may exhibit some lapses in deflection if not actual contact. It's rather amazing it performs like this and often quite well. That's why it's difficult to dispute the remarks of some. Relative to what they've known it's quite good. Yet given this to try to explain optimal to them becomes difficult.

The hardest thing in vaping is trying to explain to folks they could have a better vape because they are so damned pleased to get what they have and frankly petrified of going backwards to what they had.

Yes, often 316 gets flattened as the very result of being rolled and treated. No biggie it will swell and resume its shape. But you do need to exercise care always that you've got good deflection and at least to check that you have uniform contact all around! Always a good practice to wet the wick with juice or VG before you vape it. That's a good time once it's saturated a bit to coax the wick into proper shape as needed. I try to not to fiddle with it but anything slightly smaller than the i.d. (I like smooth darning needles or very narrow knitting hooks) will do the job. You can use a narrow instrument screw driver but avoid burrs. Flattening the weave with any force will just deter break in. So attempting to make it solidly uniform is self-defeating.

3M publishes the raw material specs for this product. Within as I recall they claim the material will expand very little. But consider this is the raw unprocessed fabric, that cleaning or treatment can reduce the diameter by of 25% or more it becomes apparent how tightly those inter-fiber spaces are reduced by heating. So it's more helpful to encourage the uniform shape of the wick than to try to restore it to a dimension or overall circumference we may assume to be correct for its final form. Let it get there of its own accord.

Good luck and LMK how you make out.

Happy Holidays.

 

[cigatron]

Didn't take long to figure out that a 7/64 coil wasn't optimal. Couldn't wait for your reply on the 3mm rxw so I wound a couple of 26awg 5/64 8/7 tmc's netting .47 last night for the Tobh. Tilted the coils at 45° so the ( angle cut) bottom end of the rxw rests on the well floor and nestles up to a corner of the well. Each time I take a pull I rotate the Panzer mod 180° to feed the wicks equally. Something I routinely did with cotton as well. Much better vapor production and the flavor was there instantly. May be as it swells it will lay down on the performance but right now I'm good. If it does swell and cuts performance I'll move to 2.5mm as Muzic and yourself suggest.

Thanks for following up Mac

cig

 

[MacTechVpr]

...That's not how I do it; I wind a turn or two on the open rod, and then press the handle in so the wire is feeding right against the face of the bracket. This way, the tension in the wire makes it conform to the cylindrical shape of the rod, but the inward pressure you put on the handle forces the coils to pack tightly together; you are compressing the next turn between the previous turn and the bracket.

Right on the money bone. As I wrote about a little while back…

There is no perfectly tensioned coil. Only adhesion as I refer to the metal's closest state. I don't see a point of advantage beyond adhesion. And I'm reporting that you increase resistance as you thin wire and add more. No doubt some will point out that this is minimal. However, it's routinely noted here on ECF that leads and element itself get disproportionately hot with very tight winds. I agree. And it's observable on videos of such winds.

I think that's why some are experiencing problems. A hot coil, a hot vape or not necessarily a good thing. The assumption that more is better. Too much of good thing isn't always. It's definitely so with strain production. We can overly strain the material.

I've never suggested that we tension as tight as possible. If I did last Fall as I was introducing the principles of tension using forceps or needle-nose to apply strain, it was because some were not using enough force to reach adhesion.

My own experiments when Kanger grommet composition changed to softer silicone this Spring and it seemed that adding more tension to the leads in clearos would limit their shifting with torquing of the 510 connection. Almost immediately these techniques resulted in extremely uniform builds. So much so that the leads as well as the coil shared the same color temperature. In some instances almost white hot (on ceramic wick). Wonderful I thought. Even more heat output. That is too hot for Kanthal and wick media and accordingly it quickly sours the juice and the build.

What we want is a cool, uniform distributed radiation. Closer to juices' evaporation point rather than further away.

That's why I teach adhesion to newcomers. Human brain's a beautiful thing Aal in that we can quite easily detect it.

It's not a pin vise or a jig, not a style of winding or a preference it's the use of a means in physics to multiply power in our wind. To actually increase the wire's stored energy and optimize the wire's heating effect aided by the uniformity of oxidation. We clear the gaps in contact and the wind more perfectly approaches its line length resistance. We're curing deficiencies which can create hot spots and the wasted venting of electrical heat energy potential. The goal is to get as precisely to that point of adhesion consistently. When you do that, consistency will be evident in the quality of the vape. Normally a radical and perceptible cool down as compared to a conventionally wound or compressed coil is the clear indication you've gone tensioned micro…with a rapid transition of fluid to vapor evidencing efficient thermal transfer of energy from wire to wick.

Good luck all.

Happy Holidays!

 

[MacTechVpr]

...So do you feel that a faster cool-down time may give me less coil gunk? That seems to be the main issue so far with the build.
I'll be wrapping a 29g 5/64" tonight, and give some feedback re: my findings.

Given the same mass of thin wire vs. fat wire x same power x same juice = same gunk. Gotta be.

Not a scientific formula but it stands to reason you can't defy those physics. Same dirty water rushin' past that damn.

But I'm not saying those running thin wire or spaced winds aren't seeing less gunking. Just not observing the differences in their use.

My speculation only. No way to be sure if folks don't post comparable config's or in the same way. Unless you're doing long term, side-by-side testing and run meaningful numbers it's merely a snapshot, an impression. It might be a correct one. But we need to be able to duplicate it for it to be meaningful to our vape.

As they say YMMV.

Good luck all and Happy Holidays!

 

[Trypno]

I bought and used a standard coil jig for something similar to this. A screw holds tension on one end of the strand, but it's up to the user to keep tension on the other end as the user wraps around the jig post.
An artistic jig or similar tension wire winder seems like the perfect solution, but I personally think the artistic jig looks like a pain in the ... to deal with, just for the purpose of winding a few coils.

 

[super_X_drifter]

I bought and used a standard coil jig for something similar to this. A screw holds tension on one end of the strand, but it's up to the user to keep tension on the other end as the user wraps around the jig post.
An artistic jig or similar tension wire winder seems like the perfect solution, but I personally think the artistic jig looks like a pain in the ... to deal with, just for the purpose of winding a few coils.

Trust me it's not PITA. It's the easiest way I've found to consistently make coils and duplicate the exact same coil every single time. So easy to count wraps too.

If you just run singles them inconsistencies are not such a big deal but for dual coil setups they are noticeable and undesired