Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

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MacTechVpr

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So I guess I do not quite understand. It is the video super_x_drifter posted that I followed. Is that not the correct way to wind a proper microcoil?

BP you prolly got the wind right but but supe and I really need to delve a bit more into the process of describing oxidation. When the micro started everybody was torching to get the coils together. Supe's method with the gizmo gets to adhesion (closest proximity) as well as tension winding with a pin vise does. But…the purpose of both is to get 'em close enough together to pulse instead of torch. There's where things go sideways for the video reviewers. It's not a pop it once or twice process at max voltage. And that's where you might have ended up hot with your build even though you likely did pretty well with the wind.

You're also better off trying to get one nailed down with a more workable gauge like 28 AWG and somewhat higher res as you suggested. A few more examples and you'll have the benefit of seeing more of what I describe below. Powering through to a micro in one or two pulses with a fresh batt or high var V/W won't do it.

Turns need to be close enough, tight enough tho not too much, for even oxidation to take place. When it does start to take hold the micro will start heating evenly from end-to-end rather than inside out (see sequence below). Thereafter, it will actually heat from outside in, lol, with the center only heating (or overheating) at higher voltages. In other words, the behavior of the coil changes and it starts to run a lot cooler even at relatively high voltage. That is the goal. And two things are required — closest proximity and patient pulsing to oxidation.

During this brief process at progressively increasing voltage (and/or pulse time) small imperfections reveal themselves. These variations in contact and wind diameter will cure with continued pulsing or with a nudge of slight pressure with a ceramic tweazer. More compression especially at high heat which we all used to do can actually put small bends in the wire which creates gaps often too small to see. Then the wind will fall short of thorough oxidation. The more of these imperfections exist the further away from uniform performance of the wind we go. And frequently you can see whether the coil's likely to go uniform within a few pulses at low voltage (say 3.4v @ 1.8Ω, higher if needed dependent on how much lower coil res is). If any dark spot defects or obvious gaps exist it's easier and far less headache to just wind another one. That's the charm of a t.m.c. They're that easy to roll out and wire's cheap. That's it in a nutshell. The objective of a t.m.c. is uniform oxidation. The payoff, uniform heat transmission.

BP most properly tensioned coils will go micro within a couple'a three low-V pulses with little compression (if any) if the tension applied in the wind was consistent. Some sections of wire can contain enough irregularities that it's not worth it. It's this process of insulation which exposes that.

When you succeed in getting the pulsing straight the coil will go in exactly the opposite direction than you experienced cooling down rapidly (increased vaporization rate) and evidencing an increase in vapor density.

Good luck BP!

:)


IMG_1414a.jpgIMG_1415a.jpgIMG_1416a.jpg
 
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oplholik

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etherealink

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BP you prolly got the wind right but but supe and I really need to delve a bit more into the process of describing oxidation. When the micro started everybody was torching to get the coils together. Supe's method with the gizmo gets to adhesion (closest proximity) as well as tension winding with a pin vise does. But…the purpose of both is to get 'em close enough together to pulse instead of torch. There's where things go sideways for the video reviewers. It's not a pop it once or twice process at max voltage. And that's where you might have ended up hot with your build even though you likely did pretty well with the wind.

You're also better off trying to get one nailed down with a more workable gauge like 28 AWG and somewhat higher res as you suggested. A few more examples and you'll have the benefit of seeing more of what I describe below. Powering through to a micro in one or two pulses with a fresh batt or high var V/W won't do it.

Turns need to be close enough, tight enough tho not too much, for even oxidation to take place. When it does start to take hold the micro will start heating evenly from end-to-end rather than inside out (see sequence below). Thereafter, it will actually heat from outside in, lol, with the center only heating (or overheating) at higher voltages. In other words, the behavior of the coil changes and it starts to run a lot cooler even at relatively high voltage. That is the goal. And two things are required — closest proximity and patient pulsing to oxidation.

During this brief process at progressively increasing voltage (and/or pulse time) small imperfections reveal themselves. These variations in contact and wind diameter will cure with continued pulsing or with a nudge of slight pressure with a ceramic tweazer. More compression especially at high heat which we all used to do can actually put small bends in the wire which creates gaps often too small to see. Then the wind will fall short of thorough oxidation. The more of these imperfections exist the further away from uniform performance of the wind we go. And frequently you can see whether the coil's likely to go uniform within a few pulses at low voltage (say 3.4v @ 1.8Ω, higher if needed dependent on how much lower coil res is). If any dark spot defects or obvious gaps exist. It's easier and far less headache to just wind another one. That's the charm of a t.m.c. They're that easy to roll out and wire's cheap. That's it in a nutshell. The objective of a t.m.c. is uniform oxidation. The payoff, uniform heat transmission.

BP most properly tensioned coils will go micro within a couple'a three low-V pulses with little compression (if any) if the tension applied in the wind was consistent. Some sections of wire can contain enough irregularities that it's not worth it. It's this process of insulation which exposes that.

When you succeed in getting the pulsing straight the coil will go in exactly the opposite direction than you experienced cooling down rapidly (increased vaporization rate) and evidencing an increase in vapor density.

Good luck BP!

:)


View attachment 425713View attachment 425714View attachment 425715
Mac,

I noticed something similar with pulsing when I started playing with the static weight and pulsing coils to develop the color other builders were getting. It was simply for vanity to begin with, but I noticed that to get the type of color that I was seeing I had to start with a low wattage (~20w) and step up as the coloring started to come out.

I did notice that when your tension is "almost" right or a bit off from wrap to wrap, you will see the legs and strange wraps of the coil glow before the oxidation starts to form. Slight raking of the coil takes care of it easily and the coil starts to glow properly, still at low wattages, higher wattages will cause a hot leg coil and possibly a break at the legs of the coil in the first few pulses. A couple of gentle nudges with tweezers on a warm coil is all that's needed to correct for coils firing perfectly in unison, and gentle is truly the way to go too much pressure deforms the coil like the old days of trying to force coils together after hand wrapping them.

The other thing I have seen is that trying to push the oxidation further while upping the wattage (still dry burning) the coloring fades out to a medium grey and just stays there. I'm curious if that would be the oxide itself or if something else is happening.

Any comments?

Also, Russ, have you tried measuring what the pull strength on the drag of your reel is? I'm curious of where others could begin with in weights most of us have available already.
 

MacTechVpr

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Mac,

I noticed something similar with pulsing when I started playing with the static weight and pulsing coils to develop the color other builders were getting. It was simply for vanity to begin with, but I noticed that to get the type of color that I was seeing I had to start with a low wattage (~20w) and step up as the coloring started to come out.

I did notice that when your tension is "almost" right or a bit off from wrap to wrap, you will see the legs and strange wraps of the coil glow before the oxidation starts to form. Slight raking of the coil takes care of it easily and the coil starts to glow properly, still at low wattages, higher wattages will cause a hot leg coil and possibly a break at the legs of the coil in the first few pulses. A couple of gentle nudges with tweezers on a warm coil is all that's needed to correct for coils firing perfectly in unison, and gentle is truly the way to go too much pressure deforms the coil like the old days of trying to force coils together after hand wrapping them.

The other thing I have seen is that trying to push the oxidation further while upping the wattage (still dry burning) the coloring fades out to a medium grey and just stays there. I'm curious if that would be the oxide itself or if something else is happening.

Any comments?

Also, Russ, have you tried measuring what the pull strength on the drag of your reel is? I'm curious of where others could begin with in weights most of us have available already.

Haven't wanted to take on this issue of oxidation letting folks intuitively find their way. Most do. I've trained a lot of folks hands on. I just consistently pass on the instruction to start low volts/power/pulse. The reason is that every set-up is different. An eVic will produce a different result than a mech at 3.9V. The state of the battery matters. The wind mass. The idea is that like the finite zone of adhesion, it varies slightly in each instance and setup. There is an acclimation phase we all have to go through…just like frying an egg.

I try to target the earliest coolest color phase to uniformity. The wind will be incrementally hotter I've come to believe as the alumina layers thicken and resistance rises with power applied. So that difference although small will be seen as heat in operation. So cooler oxidation, smoother more efficient transition phase result.


407453d1422480103-kangertech-subtank-mini-img_1336a.jpg



Frustrating that I find my ZNA is about the most consistently reliable device for producing the insulation level I'm looking for. But I'm reticent to get used to dedicating such an expensive and delightful device to mere setup duty. And the lowly eVic about the most dependable device to "find" a stuck micro that's not reading on anything else (in the process of oxidation). Usually as a result of a rake that hasn't returned the coil fully to its original wind geometry. Another nudge and pulse usually clears this.

I've done a lot of these E.

Good luck all.

:)
 
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super_X_drifter

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Mac,

I noticed something similar with pulsing when I started playing with the static weight and pulsing coils to develop the color other builders were getting. It was simply for vanity to begin with, but I noticed that to get the type of color that I was seeing I had to start with a low wattage (~20w) and step up as the coloring started to come out.

I did notice that when your tension is "almost" right or a bit off from wrap to wrap, you will see the legs and strange wraps of the coil glow before the oxidation starts to form. Slight raking of the coil takes care of it easily and the coil starts to glow properly, still at low wattages, higher wattages will cause a hot leg coil and possibly a break at the legs of the coil in the first few pulses. A couple of gentle nudges with tweezers on a warm coil is all that's needed to correct for coils firing perfectly in unison, and gentle is truly the way to go too much pressure deforms the coil like the old days of trying to force coils together after hand wrapping them.

The other thing I have seen is that trying to push the oxidation further while upping the wattage (still dry burning) the coloring fades out to a medium grey and just stays there. I'm curious if that would be the oxide itself or if something else is happening.

Any comments?

Also, Russ, have you tried measuring what the pull strength on the drag of your reel is? I'm curious of where others could begin with in weights most of us have available already.

Since I've bounced back over to 27 gauge I haven't been using my reel - been using this lil dealio instead. It's called a 401 bobbin (bag in background) and its from the fly fishing section of cabellas. It's $3.99.

c1de7304110f29d25c2b03d0981604db.jpg


I really like how it works to keep the wire straight and on target and doesn't let it unfurl on the spool. I'm using good old seat of the pants feel for tension and have produced excellent coils.

However I have been known to screw up / distort some coils when I mount em. I'm always working on improving that part and may have a killer tool to assist me once my bender gets here :)
 

MacTechVpr

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Since I've bounced back over to 27 gauge I haven't been using my reel - been using this lil dealio instead. It's called a 401 bobbin (bag in background) and its from the fly fishing section of cabellas. It's $3.99.

c1de7304110f29d25c2b03d0981604db.jpg


I really like how it works to keep the wire straight and on target and doesn't let it unfurl on the spool. I'm using good old seat of the pants feel for tension and have produced excellent coils.

However I have been known to screw up / distort some coils when I mount em. I'm always working on improving that part and may have a killer tool to assist me once my bender gets here :)

Great find Russ! This is an advanced thread. :D

Anything that helps keeps the wire distance short to the spool and attack angle optimized. Talked about this earlier.

I still like to go fishin' tho.

Good luck.

:)

p.s. And while we're at the bait shop, take a look at (small) hackle clamps. Particularly the flat and rubber padded ones. They make great clamps for coils as you're setting or modifying them (like twisted leads or pre-bends) right on the bit.
 
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super_X_drifter

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Looks like that tool would also keep the wire from unwinding on the spool when stored also.

OOps, yeh, you said that didn't you. :facepalm: I haven't finished my coffee yet.

Lucky you. I was still waiting for my espresso machine to reach optimum. It's ready now. Off to shakesville for me :)
 

OldBatty

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Lil dealio?

Is that in the same parts category as a thingamajig, whatchamacallit, or whose-e-whatsis???

Epoxying a washer - clever! Shaft collar / drill bit stop - great improvement! However, these are both hard to source in 1/16"

ferrule-stop.jpg

At Home Depot in the rope cable and chain section these ferrule 'stops' are available in at least three sizes including 1/16". (Yes, 1/8" is the last one I purchased and still had the packaging...) You get two each of the 'stops' pictured here and until today I had never found a use for. Plus two 'ferrules' which are about 3 - 4 times as long and a twin tube of soft metal which can be crimped to secure two cables together. Or as I have used them to create a loop in a cable to secure small easily misplaced items to the location they belong. All four for just a few bucks...

Now I need to get back to HD for one of the tiny wing nuts mentioned up thread. Have some somewhere in my shop, but extremely doubtful I have any smaller than 1/4".
 

etherealink

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Epoxying a washer - clever! Shaft collar / drill bit stop - great improvement! However, these are both hard to source in 1/16"


At Home Depot in the rope cable and chain section these ferrule 'stops' are available in at least three sizes including 1/16". (Yes, 1/8" is the last one I purchased and still had the packaging...) You get two each of the 'stops' pictured here and until today I had never found a use for. Plus two 'ferrules' which are about 3 - 4 times as long and a twin tube of soft metal which can be crimped to secure two cables together. Or as I have used them to create a loop in a cable to secure small easily misplaced items to the location they belong. All four for just a few bucks...

Now I need to get back to HD for one of the tiny wing nuts mentioned up thread. Have some somewhere in my shop, but extremely doubtful I have any smaller than 1/4".
The washer came about thinking about using the shoulder of a screwdriver when mounting and "fixing" a coil on the deck.

I was in process of making my own gizmo, and still hope to since I have bought one commercially at this point (thanks turbo lol). The original idea was to use the washer just down in the loop with the wingnut but seeing the suggested mounting method (a local vape shop was so inspired they went and bought one for "shop use" the same day) of wire direct to the loop, I noticed that it was walking down the shaft as the coil was wound. A washer, or something similar to hold the starting leg in place... the drill stop is a major improvement imo.

I'm just glad to have contributed something to the movement that improves ease of use. But I would still like to see a set of defined terms for both coil geometry and performance that could be used to explain a t.m.c. and what is "almost" a t.m.c. so that we are not just judging the "effect" and how it shows up in the dry firing... Mac, Russ?

Best of luck folks.
 

super_X_drifter

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^ good read bro.

But I got no answers. I'm no scientist or electrical engineer just a guy that knows a killer vape when he takes one. That's the beauty of the TMC - they are so easy to reproduce that anyone with a coil gizmo or pin vice and the intelligence to realize when your wire has become sticky can live the dream.



That there is my next project. While I can build the most perfect coils known to man, mounting them and retaining that perfection can be more of a challenge.

8eb3519c93fb8bdf1aadb58d3c2f08d6.jpg


So where that red dot is on these tweezers, Ima bore me a 2.5mm hole thru both fingers of the tweezer, saw off the ends and use it something like below to install the coil while attached to a small section of rod equal to that the coil was wound on.

This will in theory facilitate equal pressure on the ends of the coil while it's on the rod and allow for pin point precision during placement and tightening of the negative capture.

It should be the answer to lateral positioning without loosing end turn integrity :)
 
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super_X_drifter

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Could you use two of those end stop ferrules ^^^^^^ on you mandrel to hold the coil in place while mounting?

I've tried it and it is ok but not perfect. They can hold the coil too far out from the posts and in some of the attys I use they just don't fit down in the well enough to get the coils in the proper position. They also add weight to the rod so that in itself can be challenging to mount accurately :)
 

etherealink

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^ good read bro.

But I got no answers. I'm no scientist or electrical engineer just a guy that knows a killer vape when he takes one. That's the beauty of the TMC - they are so easy to reproduce that anyone with a coil gizmo or pin vice and the intelligence to realize when your wire has become sticky can live the dream.



That there is my next project. While I can build the most perfect coils known to man, mounting them and retaining that perfection can be more of a challenge.

8eb3519c93fb8bdf1aadb58d3c2f08d6.jpg


So where that red dot is on these tweezers, Ima bore me a 2.5mm hole thru both fingers of the tweezer, saw off the ends and use it something like below to install the coil while attached to a small section of rod equal to that the coil was wound on.

This will in theory facilitate equal pressure on the ends of the coil while it's on the rod and allow for pin point precision during placement and tightening of the negative capture.

It should be the answer to lateral positioning without loosing end turn integrity :)
I took a page from the super swamper play book on that one, I took a piece of the rod I wrap on and use it to help mount the coils slightly inside of the final position I want them in and pull up and out slightly after bending the negative leg slightly to align for airflow.

I can understand the lack of engineering experience Russ. Maybe you could help with the performance characteristics of the difference between a t.m.c. and a hand-wrapped, non-tensioned coil. Is it wet/dry, diffuse/full & thick, cool/extra warm? Stuff like that would be very helpful for those trying to know they got a t.m.c. made correctly (since there is no weight-to-gauge ratio yet).
 

super_X_drifter

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I took a page from the super swamper play book on that one, I took a piece of the rod I wrap on and use it to help mount the coils slightly inside of the final position I want them in and pull up and out slightly after bending the negative leg slightly to align for airflow.

I can understand the lack of engineering experience Russ. Maybe you could help with the performance characteristics of the difference between a t.m.c. and a hand-wrapped, non-tensioned coil. Is it wet/dry, diffuse/full & thick, cool/extra warm? Stuff like that would be very helpful for those trying to know they got a t.m.c. made correctly (since there is no weight-to-gauge ratio yet).

My man, it's been so long since I've vaped anything but a micro coil (like since around March 2013) that I don't remember how larger diameter coils vape. When I made the first micro coil, it was not because of heat but a theory of hydronics. The thought that a thick wick would dry on top the way water poured on top of a round pipe runs to the bottom. That's why I went small diameter.

Then as I (we) got better at wrapping the winds got closer to where we could get em touching (at least visually they appeared to touch).

Enter tension and the coil gizmo. Now we produce winds that do touch and retain their shape unless they are badly mispositioned and correction attempts unfurl em.

This makes for a very simple coil to wind and identically every time. That's why I run em.

I can't comment as to vape thickness, warmth, coolness or other aspects because all I run are basically the same builds. I can tell you that when I built the first micro, it came in at around 1.7 ohms and it vaped the same as my go to .9 ohm spaced large bore coils.

So my lack of experimentation with any other types of coils except the evolving TMC leave me unprepared to answer this question brother.

I got nothing. Except my vape is perfect for me, easy to build, duplicate and demonstrate. My coils fire with perfection and stay in my attys until I get bored, wanna change resistance or do a rebuild video. They stay clean and my KGD wicks maintain their integrity for a ATLEAST a week at .45 ohms :)
 

etherealink

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My man, it's been so long since I've vaped anything but a micro coil (like since around March 2013) that I don't remember how larger diameter coils vape. When I made the first micro coil, it was not because of heat but a theory of hydronics. The thought that a thick wick would dry on top the way water poured on top of a round pipe runs to the bottom. That's why I went small diameter.

Then as I (we) got better at wrapping the winds got closer to where we could get em touching (at least visually they appeared to touch).

Enter tension and the coil gizmo. Now we produce winds that do touch and retain their shape unless they are badly mispositioned and correction attempts unfurl em.

This makes for a very simple coil to wind and identically every time. That's why I run em.

I can't comment as to vape thickness, warmth, coolness or other aspects because all I run are basically the same builds. I can tell you that when I built the first micro, it came in at around 1.7 ohms and it vaped the same as my go to .9 ohm spaced large bore coils.

So my lack of experimentation with any other types of coils except the evolving TMC leave me unprepared to answer this question brother.

I got nothing. Except my vape is perfect for me, easy to build, duplicate and demonstrate. My coils fire with perfection and stay in my attys until I get bored, wanna change resistance or do a rebuild video. They stay clean and my KGD wicks maintain their integrity for a ATLEAST a week at .45 ohms :)
That actually says quite a lot Russ, thanks for the background info. It'll give me some things to work on explaining while I drive tonight.
 
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