Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[xpen]

For the record, it wasn't aimed specifically at anyone.. It's just that this thread is chocked full of posts of - how should I put it - considerable length.
And I've got the attention span of a gnat, I have to admit, anything beyond 10 lines tends to fly right over my head

 

[turbocad6]

Wow! Tell me more! I just started a thread on this:

Asymmetric dual coils? | E-Cigarette Forum

Please drop by and share.
Thanks!
-Johntodd

johntodd, for me it was not about different sized wire or different resistances which wouldn't work well really, for me it was more about twisted wire. twisted wire amplifies the flavor but to me it was just too much flavor overload so what I would do was build one twisted and then mate that with a standard coil of matching resistance, what this did for me was only give me 1/2 as much flavor amplification. I did this mostly with mundy's magic which is 3 twisted flat ribbons, man does it kick the flavor way up but honestly I never really loved it because for me not only did it boost the flavor but it also skewed the flavor, some notes were amplified a lot and it really wasn't something that did it for me enough to stick with it. I like flavor but I don't like overwhelming flavor overload. I normally vape 10% store bought juice mixed with 90% unflavored base so my flavors are very light. when I just try to vape straight up store bought juices it's just way to much flavor overload for me, I like subtle flavors and I even really like vaping straight unflavored occasionally too

This is the first time I've posted something in this thread, I think..
I've been reading it on and off for a while, scratching my head in fact because many times it looked to me very much like an audiophiles thread - if you know what I mean.
To the point: I've tried building a tensioned micro/mini/macro coil a number of times, but I've failed to notice any significant ROI for the time, effort and profanity spent on it.
I know, that sure means I wasn't good at it - which is definitely true, yet somehow another symptom of audiophilia to me
But I like the company, so here I am - dodging multi-pages posts like plague and still trying to make a sense out of it all.. [emoji6]

dude I completely get the audiophile analogy, I've kinda got that feeling sometimes myself too so I get exactly what you mean, the problem here is, just like when it comes to audiophile conversations, were talking more about opinions and perceived differences with no quantifiable measurements and debating stuff that is so subjective and clouded by different interpretations and everyone has a different vape that they enjoy so the whole thing is just very subjective and can be seen as almost being nonsensical, very much like audiophile conversations actually

 

[turbocad6]

Excellent but extreme example. I'm surprised it didn't go way hot (you're not touching that edge of the deck?). Look, open winds don't concentrate heat. If pumped hard with high voltage they'll issue great volume. More than the wicking can deliver often venting heat and heating what's been vaporized. Built quite a few, mostly multi-wire with large twisted variations my favorite. Yes the high power will issue more vapor and flavor. Downside the heat factor which many love as they associate this with throat hit. But if that's what you crave there's other ways to get it in the recipe and devote that how power to the output instead.

Any pics of that beast firing'?

@turbocad6 love to see ya hold on to that a few days see how it's vapin'. My prediction'd be watch that gapped end turn

Good luck!

mac I'm still vaping it and I'll get a pic of it firing, what do you mean by "watch that gapped end turn"?

 

[etherealink]

dude I completely get the audiophile analogy, I've kinda got that feeling sometimes myself too so I get exactly what you mean, the problem here is, just like when it comes to audiophile conversations, were talking more about opinions and perceived differences with no quantifiable measurements and debating stuff that is so subjective and clouded by different interpretations and everyone has a different vape that they enjoy so the whole thing is just very subjective and can be seen as almost being nonsensical, very much like audiophile conversations actually

I agree totally Turbo, that's the reason that I'm trying to do some experiments that can show that tension does really make a difference.

The hard part is trying to explain the results, so I'll ask again for the same thing I'm trying to get a bit of help with from our resident experts here...

I'd like to develop some terminology that helps us define the performance of a build (similar to how Russ defined coils by size) even if it's just used here. That way we aren't making off the wall statements that we can't understand beyond the person that wrote them.

For example: look at your comment on a "gapped end turn", why can we not standardize a few words that we agree on that describe things?

I'll cross my fingers, good luck folks.

 

[Johntodd]

Proper terminology is an absolute must. Let's develop the jargon we need to communicate effectively.

I suggest starting with physical and electrical engineering terms; they already exist and have a standard meaning.

 

[etherealink]

Proper terminology is an absolute must. Let's develop the jargon we need to communicate effectively.

I suggest starting with physical and electrical engineering terms; they already exist and have a standard meaning.

I totally agree, even if it's just used in this thread. Trying to describe very abstract and subjective things is a mess to begin with, that would make it much easier.

I'll try to put a few together with images to show what I mean, hopefully we can all work this part of the equation out so we can all be on the same page.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I meant loose end turn. Wire rotation separated before the final exit point of the lead. As mentioned earlier hard to keep those constrained but it does introduce a point of discontinuity of the circuit; and so, the likelihood of temp/res variation, whether localized or for the wind overall. Keeping the end turn geometry congruent to the rest of the wind is the challenge regardless of the wind.

Sorry folks. Perhaps not the best use of the word at that point. End turn gap tho seems to be a good way to describe premature wind separation.

Suggestions?

Good luck all.

 

[etherealink]

Just to be clear, I wasn't talking about anyone specifically with reference to the lack of terminology, I was pointing out the fact that this is easily confusing and would greatly benefit from creating a vocabulary that makes talking about specifically the visible things the coil shows.

These are the simple things that are difficult to explain without a paragraph and to even our advanced builders can be confusing. If we can make it easier to understand, say something like the concept of engine performance which is easily understood, we can lift the curtain so to speak and really make some headway to proving our point.

Here's to hoping.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Curious, how often, and what are the signs when one replaces their micro coils?

So far still on my first Coil Master wrapped coil, dry burned and replaced wick 3 times so far still vaping well. Thanks!

I usually put the first iteration of a wind into test Mt. Later versions improve but I like to run the 1st as an example of what most might see starting out. I have a dual vertical 26g 7x I believe and dual twisted center post (essentially a quad turned into connecting t.m.c's). Both these at this point running out >6 months. Should say I try to run Nextel (ceramic fiber wicking) long term. Couldn't take the upkeep otherwise. I run a lot of other stuff in far more constant wick/wire rotation.

Tensioned c/c's tend to retain their geometry far better than torched m.c.'s. I tried annealing coils into a micro state alongside torching in 2013 as I rolled out tension. That proved the least effective, torching next and tension ultimately the best. The stability of rigidity helps a great deal. But longevity's not as important as consistency of operation which is aided by balanced strain. Vaporization is rigorous and eventually does degrade the surface. What oxidation in part is supposed to protect.

My preference is to replace t.m.c.'s after a month to 6 weeks. They do keep accumulating surface deposit of caramelized solids which I think over time compromises the alumina oxidation. In a torched micro the surface literally explodes off under certain conditions blowing off accretion, alumina and even metal. Ever vape a genny with a torched micro? It's minimized with tension. There are advantages I've talked about on various threads here. A t.m.c.'s surface is more stable. Something I attribute to the stability of the oxidation.

Best indication for replacement is rise of resulting vape temperature. That's what will signal breakdown of the effect. You're dropping out of the optimal zone of efficient electron flow. If it starts to feel hot you're running the equivalent of a torched m.c. or even a standard coil. Gaps can and do present themselves even if less apparent than in other winds. Over time as oxidation is lost or compromised temp's will rise you may be able to even identify hot zones. That would be a good time.

Check you haven't encountered some other continuity issue with your mod. I always clean all contact and surfaces of the mod and atty thoroughly before I determine to pull a wind. Just to be sure. Likewise, any time I suspect any coil issue.

Good luck Mt.



p.s. This ~.25Ω TLCP (quad) taken a while back, wound last Aug in live demo at COV. Still up today. Can't figure what to replace it with…

 

[Mactavish]

Ok, 4-6 weeks is a good guideline, as well as the other tips. Thanks!

 

[turbocad6]

don't have a lot of time atm for long typing but I want to get some pics here while I'm on a pc. I know there are a lot of pics and they all look almost the same but the reason I put so many is to see that the vapor dispersion is similar in all of the shots. what you can see is that the tight micro is much more visable in all the shots because it is not spewing anywhere near as much vapor with velocity throughout it's whole center which is throughout it's whole side profile that faces the air inlet, and by contrast you can clearly see that the spaced coil is spewing much more steam driven vapor from the whole length of the coil

 

[turbocad6]

also interesting to note that when dryburned, the micro appears to be the hotter of the 2, heats up quicker and cools down slower... you would think it would naturally give a hotter vape, but no, the opposite is true...

and just cause I'm here anyway, a few other shots of this build at various stages

that's ^^ before and after dry burned from ~ 1.5 days use, here it is rewicked for today

 

[MacTechVpr]

also interesting to note that when dryburned, the micro appears to be the hotter of the 2, heats up quicker and cools down slower... you would think it would naturally give a hotter vape, but no, the opposite is true...

A t.m.c. cap off doesn't particularly look remarkable which belies the kind of power you've lined up to the wick. Good point. What you're seeing in the eccentric is more dispersion. And vaporization denser exuding as much from microspaces as you noted turbo, as porting from coil ends. Now add draw…that's what brings in air to the wicking media. What do you suppose happens when you add air to the concentration density within the coil then?



Just sayin'.

 

[Katya]

And to my untrained lips, mouth and lungs I can say with all honesty that the coils I've been crankin out for the last two weeks equal or even exceed what I was vaping prior. Not game changing cause I already has game right?

@super_X_drifter: Is this the Coil Master you're using? I searched and there seem to be a lot of knockoffs out there, priced from $7 to $30... I need help.

COIL MASTER COILER - RBA Supplies

 

[super_X_drifter]

@super_X_drifter: Is this the Coil Master you're using? I searched and there seem to be a lot of knockoffs out there, priced from $7 to $30... I need help.

COIL MASTER COILER - RBA Supplies

That looks like the latest one I received, yep.

 

[oplholik]

I got mine here for $10.00, and it's an authentic.

Coil Master RDA coil jig

 

[oplholik]

Oh yeh, the hardest part to using this I found, was remembering not to push down on the top while winding. Also use SX's method of over winding by 1 wind, then removing that one wind.

 

[muzichead]

I picked up a Coil Master from RBA Supplies. I do like it and it is simple enough to use, but you can only make a coil in one direction, (right hand wind only),. In atty's like the Nuppin' I wind my coils in the opposite direction so the positive lead is on the underside to the post. Going to have to figure out a way to do it opposite. May have to drill another through hole in the end to capture the wire in the opposite direction. Maybe I'm just not looking at it right though!!!

 

[Katya]

I got mine here for $10.00, and it's an authentic.

Coil Master RDA coil jig

That's interesting... The picture on the site looks exactly like the FT clone that many people complain about. But you got the V2 in a blister pack? Thanks!

 

[Mactavish]

Oh yeh, the hardest part to using this I found, was remembering not to push down on the top while winding. Also use SX's method of over winding by 1 wind, then removing that one wind.

Yeah, the start seems to be the hardest part, that's where it can wrap over the first turn. My very first Coil Master 2.0 mm, 10 winds, on 2nd attempt was good, mounted fine in Egrip tiny RBA. Wicking properly for this RBA is key, too much and it leaks and gurgles, too little same bad things, such a fine line. So since the first time seemed so easy, today I decided to take this coil out, and put in a stock, pre-made factory made spread coil/wick combo, just to see if my sweet juice fouled up the cotton and coil as quickly. This sucked, they had used too long a cotton, chocked the draw, so I removed it. Decided to make a new coil, then I learned my first attempt was just so lucky. Screwed up two with overlap winding, screwed up two more when bending the leads, then as Russ has expressed, screwed up in the mounting, and stared over. Not giving up I finally got a good one mounted and slow fired burned in. Vaping great, worth the effort.

What I do find as odd as a beginner is reading the ohms, the first reading was 1.2, I tightened the posts again, then read 1.3. After slow pulsing, got a 1.4 ohm reading, is this slight ohm increase normal?