Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[Aal_]

p3d, I think Mac explained it well (thanks!) But without getting technical it is when you first hit the tensioned coil and see a horizontal line of fire going on the surface of the coils traversing the wraps . That's what you need to get rid of by pulsing and raking which I think shouldn't be done with nickel because nickel oxides are dangerous?

 

[Skepticide]

Planetary gears are neat...

This one does a regular linear wrap, it works by pre-wrapping the coil on the primary jig and then tightening it down on the other two jigs. When the gears turn, all of the jigs rotate in the same direction, transferring the loose hand-wraps off the primary and pulling in tighter wraps from the tension side.

And now I think I'm officially out of ideas. Carry on.

 

[turbocad6]

ok, you said this:

"The idea is that you mount the wire first, tune it to the desired pitch (based on jig size, wire gauge and wrap count), then insert the jig and turn the crank."

and showed this in the illustration:

that ^^ is obviously a representation of the crank, given your own your textual description of the illustration.


yet when I make 4 valid and factual points about the flaws in your design you address my points by saying there moot and "There is no crank handle in the illustration A crank handle could clear the arms with a long shaft" which is also wrong of course,


and now you are still saying "You were right that a crank handle wouldn't work, which is why I'm still glad I didn't put one in the illustration."

you're a funny dude, made me laugh at least, love the new diagrams too, very creative. I don't know where to begin picking them apart. at least the first one was simple, short bullet list of technical problems but these would take a whole lot more typing than I think would be necessary here.

one of my biggest reasons I don't personally think a central starting dual arm wrap will be practical has nothing to do with the difficulty of designing a functioning machine to do it, my biggest opposition is that the resulting coil will not be 100% uniform and consistent end to end the way all of these other methods are.

even if you could pull off building something that actually works you are starting in the center with a straight wrap with no real way to get those first 2 adjacent wraps to the center wrap really tight adhesion because the 2 leads can not overlap each other initially at all simply because if the did they would hit each other, so 0 approach angle initially, then you are going to have each lead gain adhesion towards the center wrap. basically preloaded like this: /////I\ \ \ \ \

now I don't see how that will ever be as uniform and consistent as something stacked one after the other, with each wrap identical to the last start to finish, such as : IIIIIIIII or //////// or even \\\\\\\\, this is going to give you the most uniform consistent coil end to end.

in my opinion that combined with the extensively more complicated mechanics involved makes pursuing this a waste of time over much simpler yet more effective methods. picking apart your attempts at mechanical designs to achieve this would be pointless I think because even if it did work, it ain't gonna work

 

[proteckt3d]

horizontal line of fire going on the surface of the coils traversing the wraps

cool . So if I understand correctly, with the right amount of tension in the wind, thermal shorting issue can be eliminated.

 

[MacTechVpr]

...even if you could pull off building something that actually works you are starting in the center with a straight wrap with no real way to get those first 2 adjacent wraps to the center wrap really tight adhesion because the 2 leads can not overlap each other initially at all simply because if the did they would hit each other, so 0 approach angle initially, then you are going to have each lead gain adhesion towards the center wrap. basically preloaded like this: /////I\ \ \ \ \...

Precisely. Put another way a design experiment would presumptively start with a hypothesis or frame of reference. In the case of a device to create helixes with tension, the proposition that a certain objective or range of strain level should be obtained with a supporting criteria. It might begin with a mechanism or approach to index or set strain level. Further, a means to gauge or measure the result. Otherwise it's merely a winder. Strain is an internal change to the wire and its metallic properties, not just the form.

Still I applaud @Skepticide because we need more such conceptualization to spur alternative thinking. I was quite encouraged by @Scubabatdan as I considered quitting and further with his pourous ceramic wick experiments. It impressed me that ceramics might be a game changer wicking media for vaping. That was important because torched metals are not the solution in my opinion.

So yeah, prospective solutions in the context of an objective.

Then as challenging as a multiple strain source winder for tension, the concept does lend itself to miniaturization. And…one can always use two coils.

Good luck all.

 

[Aal_]

cool . So if I understand correctly, with the right amount of tension in the wind, thermal shorting issue can be eliminated.

actually with tensioning i never had a ready coil from the get go. I always needed either consecutive pulsing or raking. So to just test for the thermal short you are dry hitting and that what makes using tmc nickels a big no. At least that's what the people say. they say oxides from nickel are bad so i went with it.

 

[MacTechVpr]

cool . So if I understand correctly, with the right amount of tension in the wind, thermal shorting issue can be eliminated.

actually with tensioning i never had a ready coil from the get go. I always needed either consecutive pulsing or raking. So to just test for the thermal short you are dry hitting and that what makes using tmc nickels a big no. At least that's what the people say. they say oxides from nickel are bad so i went with it.

My take on it too Aal and why I would refrain from making Ni tensioned close contact or full contact coils to then attempt electrical annealing. The latter would improve rigidity and help stabilize the circuit but the risk, unknown. Then there's the substantial variation in these metals one must be aware of. Who knows what users are attempting with mystery Ni variants from RoC, eBay, etc. given the incomplete advice prevalent everywhere?

Always recommend folks exercise due diligence.

Kanthal on the other hand is designed to be oxidized. Bare wire relies on isolation for correct performance and safety. In our application, it is insulation in the form of the alumina layer which lends both it's safety and optimal performance. Once achieved you have a proper complete circuit.

Good luck.

 

[super_X_drifter]

Haven't posted in a bit but been lurkin . I still offer that the winding of the coil is the easiest part of the challenge for me. Maintaining the integrity of the coil throughout the mount on pretty much any atty today remains the part where even the best laid plans can come unwound.

I see an atty in the works with screws on top of term plates to trap the wire - huge improvement over tightening a screw to trap cause that usually distorts the coil and / or its position in some fashion.

Can't wait to get my hands on one

Until then, I have kinda conceded that master coils suit me just fine

 

[oplholik]

@super_X_drifter, you have any links to share on that atty?

I can make a darned nice looking coil, until it's mounted.

 

[oplholik]

If there was an atty with Subtank Mini mounting style, I'd be happy.

 

[super_X_drifter]

@super_X_drifter, you have any links to share on that atty?

I can make a darned nice looking coil, until it's mounted.

Not yet. It's still in a secret FB group. Dropper should be out soon and I may be fortunate enough to get to beta test the squonker . As soon as I know more I'll let ya'll know. It is gonna be a very high end atty featuring prescious metals and such.

 

[oplholik]

Ok, sounds outta my price range, but I'll still check it out when info comes available.

 

[turbocad6]

yeah russ, your right once that screw tightens down on the tail it distorts and pulls it and twists it. if the wire was captured between 2 flat surfaces it would eliminate that. one thing I like about the new chalice, the way the wires wraps around the relatively large diameter post and then the flat bottom of the nut really makes for much less deflection as it's tightened, def much less mounting problems than the atties that you have to stick the wire in a hole and tighten a screw

 

[Skepticide]

Precisely. Put another way a design experiment would presumptively start with a hypothesis or frame of reference. In the case of a device to create helixes with tension, the proposition that a certain objective or range of strain level should be obtained with a supporting criteria. It might begin with a mechanism or approach to index or set strain level. Further, a means to gauge or measure the result. Otherwise it's merely a winder. Strain is an internal change to the wire and its metallic properties, not just the form.

Still I applaud @Skepticide because we need more such conceptualization to spur alternative thinking. I was quite encouraged by @Scubabatdan as I considered quitting and further with his pourous ceramic wick experiments. It impressed me that ceramics might be a game changer wicking media for vaping. That was important because torched metals are not the solution in my opinion.

So yeah, prospective solutions in the context of an objective.

Then as challenging as a multiple strain source winder for tension, the concept does lend itself to miniaturization. And…one can always use two coils.

This design experiment started with a vague notion, but the emergent hypothesis is that symmetry is a critical factor in making an efficient coil, perhaps as much as strain and adhesion. One thing that can be observed easily is that a quality TMC produced with a jig is vastly more symmetrical than a traditional hand-wrapped micro coil. I propose that by solving the technical hurdles of a center-out wrap, you can further improve on the quality.

I've actually put forth an entirely different hypothesis in the picture above of the device with the planetary gears (that aren't really planetary, they stay in place). I call this concept transitive wrapping, I'd like to hear you guys weigh in on it.

On another note, I was reading some of the earlier pages in the thread and I noticed what you said about a high pressure zone being created inside the coil when it heats up. It occurred to me that there must be a rapid drop in pressure once the power is removed because the residual heat can disperse into the medium, causing a cooling effect like an evaporator coil.

Also, I just want to say that I applaud you applauding me, because I'm a big fan of myself.

 

[turbocad6]

Still I applaud @Skepticide because we need more such conceptualization to spur alternative thinking.

I applaud him also for wanting to try to think of a better way, I def don't mean to discourage that. more often than not the first ideas are not always the best ideas, doesn't mean give up and def nothing wrong with sharing those thoughts, that's what we are here for

 

[Skepticide]

even if you could pull off building something that actually works you are starting in the center with a straight wrap with no real way to get those first 2 adjacent wraps to the center wrap really tight adhesion because the 2 leads can not overlap each other initially at all simply because if the did they would hit each other, so 0 approach angle initially, then you are going to have each lead gain adhesion towards the center wrap. basically preloaded like this: /////I\ \ \ \ \

now I don't see how that will ever be as uniform and consistent as something stacked one after the other, with each wrap identical to the last start to finish, such as : IIIIIIIII or //////// or even \\\\\\\\, this is going to give you the most uniform consistent coil end to end.

Thanks for the honest critique, I see where you are coming from but I have to disagree here. The initial angle of approach will be 0 because we're essentially folding a straight line in half, but once the arms make their first pass, the leads will be stacked on top of each other. Because we are pulling equally in both directions, the back side of that first wrap has nothing to bind against and so it will tilt slightly. I think it would be impossible for it to wind out a /////I\ \ \ \ \ profile. The angle will become sharper with each wrap, but it will do so from both directions, compressing the coil. Also, the total amount that the angle increases becomes less if you extend the length of the arms.

 

[Mactavish]

yeah russ, your right once that screw tightens down on the tail it distorts and pulls it and twists it. if the wire was captured between 2 flat surfaces it would eliminate that. one thing I like about the new chalice, the way the wires wraps around the relatively large diameter post and then the flat bottom of the nut really makes for much less deflection as it's tightened, def much less mounting problems than the atties that you have to stick the wire in a hole and tighten a screw

You guys are really going to make me buy a Chalice III, so far only tiny (thin at 13.9 mm) RBA I've been able to find with AFC. Hopefully the best match for a new REO Mini 14500, for flavor. I hope Rob decides to make a few in Black anodized, he told me he was not sure. Looked at Hornets, ERA, RM2/RM3, Reactor V2, and Cyclone (AFC model too wide at 18mm).

 

[MattyB1503]

*Lightly skimming tha thread*

Glad to see some familiar faces

& it is cool to see my build has lived on

hand wound I might add , circa 2/14.

I see the native language has taken a deeper plunge into the obscure tho... eeeek. So honest question; is this thread purely about coils forms & how they vape? I remember the end of a golden era when all things were considered. So many build pics, so much trial & error, so many different wraps and wire types; all in pursuit of that ultimate knowledge: How does airflow, wire mass, coil position, wire geometry, coil rez, wire type, wick saturation, etc etc etc affect the experience.

X, did you ever think KGD would spawn a whole market of repackaged cotton sold as "wicking material". LuLz, I got in early on that one & still have two unopened boxes but, it has been long back in stock, 12 bucks for 60 pads; the skin care market has responded. Yet still ppl are making a killing of repackaging...

Mac, I gotta know, did you have a part in the new fangled coil jigs or did they just cop the idea? Still prefer the ol' fashion way myself.

Well, I think the market is finally progressing. '14 seemed a bit stagnate.. And I already see the demise of H.E. tri-posts Finally, right? Paying 100 plus of a nimbus derivative was so overrated, which imo was just a riff on an IGo.. so we paid tha big cash for a mo-better China design. Rofl, what a wild ride it has been

 

[etherealink]

Skepticide,

I think I have a way to have a go at your theory of wrapping from the center out. No hints on techniques until I know if its possible yet lol.

I'll try to get to it tomorrow, intentionally winding one with varying attack angles and one as consistent as I can... tension control notwithstanding.

Here goes nothing!

 

[MacTechVpr]

*Lightly skimming tha thread*

Glad to see some familiar faces

& it is cool to see my build has lived on

hand wound I might add , circa 2/14.

I see the native language has taken a deeper plunge into the obscure tho... eeeek. So honest question; is this thread purely about coils forms & how they vape? I remember the end of a golden era when all things were considered. So many build pics, so much trial & error, so many different wraps and wire types; all in pursuit of that ultimate knowledge: How does airflow, wire mass, coil position, wire geometry, coil rez, wire type, wick saturation, etc etc etc affect the experience.

X, did you ever think KGD would spawn a whole market of repackaged cotton sold as "wicking material". LuLz, I got in early on that one & still have two unopened boxes but, it has been long back in stock, 12 bucks for 60 pads; the skin care market has responded. Yet still ppl are making a killing of repackaging...

Mac, I gotta know, did you have a part in the new fangled coil jigs or did they just cop the idea? Still prefer the ol' fashion way myself.

Well, I think the market is finally progressing. '14 seemed a bit stagnate.. And I already see the demise of H.E. tri-posts Finally, right? Paying 100 plus of a nimbus derivative was so overrated, which imo was just a riff on an IGo.. so we paid tha big cash for a mo-better China design. Rofl, what a wild ride it has been

As I've mentioned M, you, PDIB, Supe, Scuba, Vapdivrr all workin' hard towards a non-shorting stable performance coil were the prime influence to me that the corner could be turned if enough of us stepped in. It gave me the confidence not only to try and contribute but that I would survive the experience. Hat's off to you all.

Listen, I got my hands on very early versions of [correction: jig coilers] as they came out. Worked them as diligently as anything that any and all of you put out there. But no I had no input. They do not impart tension. As an investor I would have advised against it as a loss leader or discount item. Not something to get us to the unicorn vape. I think controlled production is for any wind that we try. A winner for every a** at the table, and there's a seat for every one. So I don't see this as a specific wind or form fixation at all but additional dimensions beyond temperature and power that are equally important to the result and our achieving a real control of outcome. Far more in significance and value than any one device we use. My goal has always been getting that developing vaper interested and confident enough to accomplish a proper repeatable electrical wind inside days so they can appreciate what the rest of us do.

As to your center-twist, an incredible accomplishment for a hand wind. I'm afraid my tired old hands can't do it. I've tried. I need tension to get to your symmetry, and turning them as opposed coils (top-turn exit at center) allows them to oxidize as if a single unit. That is, they tend to stabilize as a t.m.c. does with more uniform thermal distribution. The t.m.c. derivative is the most powerful wind I put on std. 3-post. The superbly even thermal output the center twist provides the insulated wind is jaw dropping (as per my pic above). Versions I've tested long term have been by far the best survivors and producers (both flavor and vapor) at every res tested. Recently I've been returning to tensioned versions of your over-under center twist for tests on the Kanger Subtank OCC. It's an amazing piece of work on that deck at 7/64" and 1/8" with 29 AWG performing more like a 26 gauge build at half actual resistance.

Yes the language is changing and I feel necessarily so as we need to consider that factors such as the insulation properties of wire are important to the vape. Wire is not just heat. Or that the internal pressures of a wind can be an advantage in the output over other winds and atomizer choices. In other situations maybe not. At least we have the discussion as the choices matter. But first there must be the choice.

Again, thanks to you and so many that preceded us. Really glad you've joined us. Not tryin' to make ya feel old M, I think I've got ya beat on that score.

Good luck!