Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[MacTechVpr]

Yes, it works fine. I recently tried an experiment with spaced coils (blasphemy, I know), as some claim less gunking, longer wick life. Anyway, I wound the coil on the gizmo with arm tension (I pull down pretty hard), producing a beautiful contact coil Sup would be proud of. Then, with the coil still on the mandrel, I tried to gently pull the coil apart to produce spaces of about a wire width. Blooming thing sprang right back into contact every time. So, I grabbed a piece of 28g wire and threaded it through the turns cranking the handle, same result. I finally grabbed that 1mm mandrel and threaded it through the same way, and got some space between the winds.

The improvement these folks have brought is the ability to get the same coil each and every time without thinking about it. With my calibrated arm, I get very good coils every time, but it isn't the same coil. Thing is, though, when I "arm out" duals, I've never had an issue with the coils matching on heat up time/glow. Without tension, that was a big issue.

Flavored, yes you certainly can, use tension to build open spaced winds. As I've spoken to it helps build a proper symmetrical electrical wind. We've been using them forever. First and important point. Also it builds rigidity so it stabilizes the wind giving it durability without torching. It's preferable always to build uniformity into the wire by electrical pulsing as vapdivrr introduced long ago.

However, such are not microcoils in the functional sense. I encourage newcomers first start with a t.m.c. so that they begin to understand and apply the principles of resistance. It's very hard for peeps without firsthand experience with this to use open winds. Too much math and too much ball-parkin'. So they never develop the sense of building to a target.

I know. I've tried both methods of teaching tension on the outside.

I really do need the support of the community here. If we can get folks to understand this principle of building to a design target. A pin vise giving one the experience of intimacy to the wire nothing else can. Then they quickly get to a point where they can evaluate everything and anything.

That is the reason for my enthusiasm Flavored. I'm most interested that we all get a shot at the basics and the great vape that follows. Thought I'd spell it out here to be clear. I enjoy far more variety than most and love to see more folks get there.

Good luck Flav. And yeah, I do use open winds. So guilty here too! LOL Thanks for the affirmations on the benefits of strain.



p.s. Even using strain it's exceedingly difficult to get two matched pairs. Irregularities of the wire surface and diameter themselves, although subtle, are so substantial as to make a perfect adhesion unlikely in practical terms.

p.s.s One of my earliest posts introducing the concepts of strain in the Fall of 2013 on the Protank Microcoil Discussion using a forceps and manual strain. Nowhere nears the degree of consistency of a pin vise or gizmo style jig. I just did not believe people would ever view a spool as a tool. I was mistaken.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I'm guessing were somewhere in the 10 lb range give or take 5-6 lb's or so depending on variables. I'm guessing at 20 lb's were going to be snapping 26 ga. so that sounds like a reasonable guess of a range to me but that's straight linear pulling force. to calculate the torque required you'd have to factor in the leverage factors of the drive too I guess

to me the only thing critical about torque is that you have at least enough, more than that isn't a problem, more torque will allow really slow speeds.

if I was going to make a simple mm making machine I'd get a slide track and spring load a sliding wire post in the track, then mount a spindle drive opposite it, as the wire is twisted and it compresses, the spring would apply it's calibrated amount of tension against it as the slide track allowed the wire to shorten in length as it wrapped. if you started with a known length you could determine the exact point of full twist before snapping and put a micro switch there to trigger an auto stop. chuck the wire, attach the other end to the post at the end of the track then press the button and it winds a perfect single strand every time. it would have to be calibrated to the specific wire you are using but I'd say it def could be done, same solution could work for the stage 2 of the reverse twisting of the 3 singles. problem with this design is, it would be ok for your own casual use but it is very limited because it's only working a single stand at a time. if you set it up to be able to vary the spring tension it could be used to do all kinds of twisted wires.

a slidetrack setup would be cool, I've def thought of that before too, but if your looking to really automate it and have a machine take wire from a spool and spit out MM on the other end like a commercial cnc type deal then it would be a bit more complicated

Its tensile strength is 680 n/mm², or 3883 lbs/inch². I can tell ya I've snapped plenty with the combined force of hands separating bit from spool and torquing action of a pin vise simultaneously stretching the wire. So first, tension will considerably lower the breaking point. However, adhesion or how I generically refer to closest proximity is significantly below this I believe.

I first introduced strain on super_X_drifters thread last year 'round this time. There was some disc on this raised by SLIPPY_EEL's question here. My post Tension and grip, adhesion, benefits… pointed out that a firm man's grip is approximately 300 Nm (see photograph). The grip of thumb and forefinger a considerable part of that. And while that is certainly enough to form close contact turns even thick gauges like 22 AWG onto a mandrel it isn't enough for adhesion. My estimates at the time were that 275 Nm were needed or more. It varies according to gauge (mass). After many hundreds of builds since I think this figure may be a bit high and that less tension is actually beneficial, i.e. the closest measure of tightness to adhesion. Interestingly, and because of the wide variation in wire, even within individual spools, the human hand/mind are incredibly perceptive of these graduations. And this in part is why I encourage learning to use/apply strain by hand. It gives us an incredible insight into the metal's characteristics.

Initially using strain I encouraged the coil and bit be separated so that the combined force of forearms drawing the wire apart could be applied. At the same time I had been successful with a technique using very little strain attempting to discover the lower limits...

It's this hand wind method that has proven most successful and consistent. Using the spools edge as a fulcrum or pivot, the combined force of simple hand/thumb separation is enough to arrive at adhesion for most gauges. Myself for gauges 24 AWG and thicker have to apply considerable right forearm pressure pulling away. So it would seem that for this and heavier wire a jig would be a great advantage for many as the force required may be greater than above. What this wind approach confirmed though is that tension requirements are lower overall than I originally expected. I discussed the possible downsides of over-tensioning with Bill as he was putting together his rig. The resulting phenomena needed to be observed in the wild though rather than theory. And I believe most users readily arrive at the conclusion that too much strain doesn't help the vape.

Glad to help if I'm able T.

Good luck.

 

[rowsley]

Its tensile strength is 680 n/mm², or 3883 lbs/inch². I can tell ya I've snapped plenty with the combined force of hands separating bit from spool and torquing action of a pin vise simultaneously stretching the wire. So first, tension will considerably lower the breaking point. However, adhesion or how I generically refer to closest proximity is significantly below this I believe.

I first introduced strain on super_X_drifters thread last year 'round this time. There was some disc on this raised by SLIPPY_EEL's question here. My post Tension and grip, adhesion, benefits… pointed out that a firm man's grip is approximately 300 Nm (see photograph). The grip of thumb and forefinger a considerable part of that. And while that is certainly enough to form close contact turns even thick gauges like 22 AWG onto a mandrel it isn't enough for adhesion. My estimates at the time were that 275 Nm were needed or more. It varies according to gauge (mass). After many hundreds of builds since I think this figure may be a bit high and that less tension is actually beneficial, i.e. the closest measure of tightness to adhesion. Interestingly, and because of the wide variation in wire, even within individual spools, the human hand/mind are incredibly perceptive of these graduations. And this in part is why I encourage learning to use/apply strain by hand. It gives us an incredible insight into the metal's characteristics.

Initially using strain I encouraged the coil and bit be separated so that the combined force of forearms drawing the wire apart could be applied. At the same time I had been successful with a technique using very little strain attempting to discover the lower limits...

It's this hand wind method that has proven most successful and consistent. Using the spools edge as a fulcrum or pivot, the combined force of simple hand/thumb separation is enough to arrive at adhesion for most gauges. Myself for gauges 24 AWG and thicker have to apply considerable right forearm pressure pulling away. So it would seem that for this and heavier wire a jig would be a great advantage for many as the force required may be greater than above. What this wind approach confirmed though is that tension requirements are lower overall than I originally expected. I discussed the possible downsides of over-tensioning with Bill as he was putting together his rig. The resulting phenomena needed to be observed in the wild though rather than theory. And I believe most users readily arrive at the conclusion that too much strain doesn't help the vape.

Glad to help if I'm able T.

Good luck.

Hey just a quick question. Is wire from lightningvapes good? I can get 200' for 11.00 dollars. cheaper than tempco. Not sure if its still good to get. Thank you

 

[MacTechVpr]

Hey just a quick question. Is wire from lightningvapes good? I can get 200' for 11.00 dollars. cheaper than tempco. Not sure if its still good to get. Thank you

I try to always recommend TEMCO for starters. Very predictable excellent quality and fairly consistent resistance values (for wire they sell directly). The spools are good quality hard spools needed for hand winding on jig or pin vise. Suggest you save empty spools for future deals. L-V has good quality authentic Kanthal tho and a vendor I recommend as very supportive of this community.

Good luck row.

 

[super_X_drifter]

Hey just a quick question. Is wire from lightningvapes good? I can get 200' for 11.00 dollars. cheaper than tempco. Not sure if its still good to get. Thank you

Temco has free shipping. I've never bought wire from anywhere other than Temco direct. Not Temco on eBay.

 

[twgbonehead]

LightningVapes is fine for wire (they also have Nichrome80, which Temco didn't, last I looked).

Have bought from both, but use Lightning nowadays.

 

[bc indiana]

I bought from Temco based on your recs SuperX. They upgraded me to a 250' coil (ordered a 100' 29GA) for free since they were out. Great customer service!

Loving the Wire Gizmo BTW! THANKS FOR ALL THE GREAT TUTORIAL VIDS!!!

Temco has free shipping. I've never bought wire from anywhere other than Temco direct. Not Temco on eBay.

 

[turbocad6]

ok so I've been running a high tension wrapped 26ga, 10 wraps on 2.4mm nets 1.1ohm for around 4 days now on a dna30 bf, first 2 days no issues, the third morning I woke up and tried to vape and it showed SHORTED on the display...hmmm, strange, unscrew the atty and it doesn't say shorted, screw it back in and shorted... weird... so I screwed that atty off and popped another loaded atty on there and vaped a bit, then I decided to try the shorted atty on a dna40 because it can fire much lower ohms than the 30, I hit it and it vaped, looked at the screen and it was showing the 1.1 ohm this coil was before so I popped it back on the 30 and it vaped fine again. I wished I had looked at the ohms before firing it on the 40 but I didn't, so I just figured ??? and kept vaping it. this morning it vaped fine again, I went out and shoveled some snow, came back in and tried to vape... SHORTED, atty was near frozen but still very weird so this time I screwed it onto the dna and checked resistance before firing it, showed as .14, yeah .14, I fired it and it immediately returned to the normal 1.1ohm after firing it....

this sounds so strange but after happening a second time I know it wasn't just a freak thing so now I'm guessing it's probably because it was wrapped under too much tension? this is an odd one, never seen anything like this before. I'm guessing that on a mech this might never be noticeable because a mech is going to fire it no matter what and once it's fired it returns to normal immediately so on a mech there really would be nothing to indicate this even happened I guess. I'll admit that if anyone else posted this I'd probably be thinking they did something wrong or that they somehow made some kind of mistake but I seen it with my own eyes...

very strange. I'm thinking it's almost impossible for a 1.1 ohm coil to short so evenly across the whole coil to reduce it to .14 but then return to 1.1 as soon as it's fired again so I'll agree with anyone who says it's not possible but then again it happened twice and I seen it with my own eyes so I don't know what to think here. it's vaping just fine as I type this...

 

[Aal_]

You have just achieved a perfect short, a perfect metal tube. Spooky.

 

[Cantthinkofausername]

very strange. I'm thinking it's almost impossible for a 1.1 ohm coil to short so evenly across the whole coil to reduce it to .14 but then return to 1.1 as soon as it's fired again so I'll agree with anyone who says it's not possible but then again it happened twice and I seen it with my own eyes so I don't know what to think here. it's vaping just fine as I type this...

Could it be liquid shorting the entire coil then burning off as soon as you fire it?

 

[Darryl Licht]

Vape Mail ala Temco:



I got 50 ft of the thicker stuff I wont use for twisted stuff, and 100 ft of 28, 30, & 32 AWG... I figure this is a good selection to start off with!

 

[Flavored]

Flavored, yes you certainly can, use tension to build open spaced winds. As I've spoken to it helps build a proper symmetrical electrical wind. We've been using them forever. First and important point. Also it builds rigidity so it stabilizes the wind giving it durability without torching. It's preferable always to build uniformity into the wire by electrical pulsing as vapdivrr introduced long ago.

However, such are not microcoils in the functional sense. I encourage newcomers first start with a t.m.c. so that they begin to understand and apply the principles of resistance. It's very hard for peeps without firsthand experience with this to use open winds. Too much math and too much ball-parkin'. So they never develop the sense of building to a target.

I know. I've tried both methods of teaching tension on the outside.

I really do need the support of the community here. If we can get folks to understand this principle of building to a design target. A pin vise giving one the experience of intimacy to the wire nothing else can. Then they quickly get to a point where they can evaluate everything and anything.

That is the reason for my enthusiasm Flavored. I'm most interested that we all get a shot at the basics and the great vape that follows. Thought I'd spell it out here to be clear. I enjoy far more variety than most and love to see more folks get there.

Good luck Flav. And yeah, I do use open winds. So guilty here too! LOL Thanks for the affirmations on the benefits of strain.



p.s. Even using strain it's exceedingly difficult to get two matched pairs. Irregularities of the wire surface and diameter themselves, although subtle, are so substantial as to make a perfect adhesion unlikely in practical terms.

p.s.s One of my earliest posts introducing the concepts of strain in the Fall of 2013 on the Protank Microcoil Discussion using a forceps and manual strain. Nowhere nears the degree of consistency of a pin vise or gizmo style jig. I just did not believe people would ever view a spool as a tool. I was mistaken.

Yeah, Mac, I know, my recent coils don't meet the micro-coil diameter requirement, either, but they work well in the Aqua's I've been using. I also use mostly 29g wire, have used 28 recently, also have 30g and 32 that I never hardly touch. Tugging with my calibrated arm on those wires works very will, and I'm more consistent than I let on.

About those spaced coils, it is true, at least so far and with the way I wick and vape, gunking is reduced. It is also true I have to bump the watts 15-20% to get the same vape, so that micro/contact coil efficiency thing is real.

 

[kinada423]

I tried the reel that Bill's Magic Vapor had in his jig from amazon with my artistic wire coil gizmo and I can't seem to get enough drag for a good tensioned coil on 28gauge and I seem to lack the "touch" to get the appropriate amount of pressure on the wire by hand.

super_X_drifter you, I mean Rufus...seems to get great results with that Cabela's WR2 reel in your swamper tmc video. Do you know what size reel you are using? Looks like they come in 3 different sizes. 2 of the sizes say they work with 20lb line and the 3.75" says it works with 30lb. I ask because as long as there is a smooth drag system that supports enough drag tension then we could perhaps point people in the right direction to get a reel that works for them.

I can't seem to make out what reel sedge is using in his version of the "BMV Coiling Machine" to see if the common link is just any fly fishing reel with good drag supporting 30lb line. Can you fellers help clarify?

I also can't wait to see what happens with the testing of weight hanging from different wire.

 

[etherealink]

Ok guys, went shopping instead of going online because we had a snow day. Just a heads up for anyone making a jig involving a fly fishing reel ala Super... do not get the pan fish fly fishing kit from Walmart, it does not have adjustable drag as advertised!

I'll be getting a reel from cabellas' like Super did to make part of my jig but I wanted to get the info out before people started wasting $50 on a reel that won't work.

On another note, there are a few panfish reels that I will be trying for their adj. drag capabilities as they are half the price of a good fly reel. Also, I noticed that making a longer mandrel or use in the pin vise makes wrapping a solid coil with even 22ga a1 quite possible by hand.

Mac, your pin vise idea even has guys that wrap 18 & 20ga ni80 by hand going crazy with a few minutes of practice... we're catching on!

 

[Darryl Licht]

Ok guys, went shopping instead of going online because we had a snow day. Just a heads up for anyone making a jig involving a fly fishing reel ala Super... do not get the pan fish fly fishing kit from Walmart, it does not have adjustable drag as advertised!

I'll be getting a reel from cabellas' like Super did to make part of my jig but I wanted to get the info out before people started wasting $50 on a reel that won't work.

On another note, there are a few panfish reels that I will be trying for their adj. drag capabilities as they are half the price of a good fly reel. Also, I noticed that making a longer mandrel or use in the pin vise makes wrapping a solid coil with even 22ga a1 quite possible by hand.

Mac, your pin vise idea even has guys that wrap 18 & 20ga ni80 by hand going crazy with a few minutes of practice... we're catching on!

Thanks for the heads up!

Let us know how your search goes!

 

[MacTechVpr]

Ok guys, went shopping instead of going online because we had a snow day. Just a heads up for anyone making a jig involving a fly fishing reel ala Super... do not get the pan fish fly fishing kit from Walmart, it does not have adjustable drag as advertised!

I'll be getting a reel from cabellas' like Super did to make part of my jig but I wanted to get the info out before people started wasting $50 on a reel that won't work.

On another note, there are a few panfish reels that I will be trying for their adj. drag capabilities as they are half the price of a good fly reel. Also, I noticed that making a longer mandrel or use in the pin vise makes wrapping a solid coil with even 22ga a1 quite possible by hand.

Mac, your pin vise idea even has guys that wrap 18 & 20ga ni80 by hand going crazy with a few minutes of practice... we're catching on!

Tension has helped me explore my limits at both ends of resistance and across the board with multi wire. Once you get it tight, it just works right. Thx E.



G'luck.

 

[muzichead]

ok so I've been running a high tension wrapped 26ga, 10 wraps on 2.4mm nets 1.1ohm for around 4 days now on a dna30 bf, first 2 days no issues, the third morning I woke up and tried to vape and it showed SHORTED on the display...hmmm, strange, unscrew the atty and it doesn't say shorted, screw it back in and shorted... weird... so I screwed that atty off and popped another loaded atty on there and vaped a bit, then I decided to try the shorted atty on a dna40 because it can fire much lower ohms than the 30, I hit it and it vaped, looked at the screen and it was showing the 1.1 ohm this coil was before so I popped it back on the 30 and it vaped fine again. I wished I had looked at the ohms before firing it on the 40 but I didn't, so I just figured ??? and kept vaping it. this morning it vaped fine again, I went out and shoveled some snow, came back in and tried to vape... SHORTED, atty was near frozen but still very weird so this time I screwed it onto the dna and checked resistance before firing it, showed as .14, yeah .14, I fired it and it immediately returned to the normal 1.1ohm after firing it....

this sounds so strange but after happening a second time I know it wasn't just a freak thing so now I'm guessing it's probably because it was wrapped under too much tension? this is an odd one, never seen anything like this before. I'm guessing that on a mech this might never be noticeable because a mech is going to fire it no matter what and once it's fired it returns to normal immediately so on a mech there really would be nothing to indicate this even happened I guess. I'll admit that if anyone else posted this I'd probably be thinking they did something wrong or that they somehow made some kind of mistake but I seen it with my own eyes...

very strange. I'm thinking it's almost impossible for a 1.1 ohm coil to short so evenly across the whole coil to reduce it to .14 but then return to 1.1 as soon as it's fired again so I'll agree with anyone who says it's not possible but then again it happened twice and I seen it with my own eyes so I don't know what to think here. it's vaping just fine as I type this...

I would tend to think that as a seasoned vapor, if my 1.1Ω coil all of a sudden started vaping as a .14Ω it would be more than noticeable... They only time I have ever had a coil read something other than what it was wrapped to was when either a post screw came loose or the atty came loose. The vape felt very different which was what made me look for the culprit to the problem. I don't think your problem you are experiencing has anything to do with tension or wrapping in general, but has everything to do with the DNA modules. They have yet to make a DNA module that is not glitchy, to date... I know I have made comments about the DNA's in the past and you stand by them, but I still to this day, continue to read these types of problems people are having with them.

Of course this is totally my opinion, though seems only obvious to me, which is probably why I must be wrong.... Bash away....

 

[turbocad6]

trust me, I don't honestly think that the coil itself shorted like that, pretty much impossible, but I don't know exactly what caused this yet. don't think it ever vaped at the .14 it's just that trying to fire it on a mod that can fire that low seems to clear it up or break the short instantly. to me the only logical thing is going to be taking it apart to see whats going on there

 

[MacTechVpr]

trust me, I don't honestly think that the coil itself shorted like that, pretty much impossible, but I don't know exactly what caused this yet. don't think it ever vaped at the .14 it's just that trying to fire it on a mod that can fire that low seems to clear it up or break the short instantly. to me the only logical thing is going to be taking it apart to see whats going on there

I've had instances of minute cracks in multi-wire do that (and some singles). Drove me crazy. Seemed like a phase and never figured out what I was doing to provoke it. Perhaps too eagerly adjusting coil height for a while. Overly confident in the durability of fat wire. Over-tensioning can certainly make wire susceptible. But I don't discount the poss problem with the atty or mod esp if a variable. Seen that too many times too. I guess we'd rather think it's something with the air filter and not the engine block. My reaction that ended playin' with these things…pull the build, remove all doubt. Maybe why I got so many of the damned things. LOL. Point being suspect the obvious minor things. Wonderful thing about your project is it makes such surprises easy to vaporize.



Good luck.

 

[etherealink]

I would tend to think that as a seasoned vapor, if my 1.1Ω coil all of a sudden started vaping as a .14Ω it would be more than noticeable... They only time I have ever had a coil read something other than what it was wrapped to was when either a post screw came loose or the atty came loose. The vape felt very different which was what made me look for the culprit to the problem. I don't think your problem you are experiencing has anything to do with tension or wrapping in general, but has everything to do with the DNA modules. They have yet to make a DNA module that is not glitchy, to date... I know I have made comments about the DNA's in the past and you stand by them, but I still to this day, continue to read these types of problems people are having with them.

Of course this is totally my opinion, though seems only obvious to me, which is probably why I must be wrong.... Bash away....

I have an rda that does something similar, fluctuating across resistance and still haven't figured it out yet.

Best of luck turbo.