Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[super_X_drifter]

I'm going to start by saying thank you to Super X for his youtube videos. I watched one of them to learn how to wrap my very first coil, many months ago. I have since tried many methods, with my favorite until recently being a pin vise with a drill bit mounted in reverse (drill portion mounted in the pin vise). Just got a Coil Master and after a very short learning curve and a foot of wasted wire I have to say that I have found my coil-winding nirvana.

Having said that, I haven't read this entire thread, nor do I have a degree in metallurgy, but I have to ask:

How does pulling the wire taught when winding it make the coil better? Once you relieve the tension and remove it from the bit it is just a static coil that seems would not be any different than a hand wound non-tensioned coil when compared side-by-side. I could see if the object was to mount the coil under tension to somehow improve it's functional properties, but that just is not the case. So why bother?...other than just to fuss about with different "toys".

Again, not trying to rain on the parade, and I get that it's a lot of fun to devise new ways to make the perfect coil using inventive methods, but other than the cool-fun factor, are you really getting a better coil than by using something like the Coil Master?

Anyway, I'll end like I started: Props to Super X for all of his tutorial videos and his active participation here. I'm sure a lot of n00bs have gotten off on the absolute right foot (including me) and/or avoided a certain disaster because of his efforts. Thanks

Thank you brother. Being that I'm not a scientist though, I can only comment that the "seat of the pants" vape of a coil wound under tension is superior IMO than those Koiler thingies. I hate dealing with starter winds and those Koilers give starter wraps (they are not winds but formed wraps).

Mac can chime in on the benefits of tensioning wire to the point of adhesion - I can't elaborate on that cause I don't know about it. All I know is my tensioned coils kick ayuss. The one I was actually able to get out of the coil master was pretty but it's formed. Forming means just that - the wire is formed around a rod, not taught and tensioned.

They may work well for some people but to me the artistic wire gizmo spanks it. Kills it literally. It's prolly better than hand wrapping around a rod but that's not saying much these days. A year ago, we'd a thought that thing was money. But these days it's still money in my mind - a waste of it . But that's just my opinion and I value yours my brother.

Thank you for the props and straight up comments my man

 

[TrashCat]

Thanks,I also bought a Coil Master,and it's not nearly as good at making coils as this is. It's got a lot of different rods for it, but (to me) it's a PITA to setup and use.

Aaahhh... Exactly what I was looking for.

Is that the consensus... The Kuro/Coil Master are not nearly as good for tension coils as the Artistic Gizmo?

 

[oplholik]

I haven't used a coil master, but I've not heard too many good things about them, but I can tell you that the Gizmo does work, and it's quick and easy.

 

[super_X_drifter]

Aaahhh... Exactly what I was looking for.

Is that the consensus... The Kuro/Coil Master are not nearly as good for tension coils as the Artistic Gizmo?

Those Koilers / masters impart Zero tension. Strictly forming devices. Forming went out with the hoola hoop

 

[oplholik]

LOL! "went out with the hoola hoop". Right on.

 

[super_X_drifter]

LOL! "went out with the hoola hoop". Right on.

Ah, another brother who can appreciate 90's dialect

 

[oplholik]

I can appreciate a lot further back than that.

 

[muzichead]

Ah, another brother who can appreciate 90's dialect

Actually the hula hoop hasn't been a thing since the early 70's....

 

[Darryl Licht]

Aaahhh... Exactly what I was looking for.

Is that the consensus... The Kuro/Coil Master are not nearly as good for tension coils as the Artistic Gizmo?

I bought one several months ago (the coil master)... all it does is make a pretty looking coil. It imparts zero tension to the wire or coil.

The artistic coil gizmo costs half the price and makes a superior coil every time!

 

[TrashCat]

Wow... It took a couple of days, but I've finally read through this whole thread.

Can't wait to try this out.

Thank you all for the research and experimentation that went into this... And for taking the time to explain it so well.

 

[El Dee]

I've been working with the drill chuck Gizmo for a couple of days....Gizmo and reel attached to a 1X6 piece of oak...I fashioned a wire starter leg attachment point from a large fish hook shank and tack welded that too the chuck...Held the wire at the proper position for the first wrap fine...I did not like the side to side play the handle had when mounted as intended...I worked it out to where you could park the handle and it would stay there...It looked pretty good and operated with a short mandrel sticking out of the chuck....I mounted the reel 10 inches back and so the chuck was a perfect 90*....Then the problems set in....First coil though looking great was spaced....perfect spacing but spaced....Under tension from the reel the chuck and mandrel had too much deflection...The bracket isn't strong enough and the holes are too large...It gained from 90* and that's where the spaces in the coil came from....I could have mounted the reel at an odd angle but I felt over time the deflection if anything would get worse with wear....So I scrapped the drill chuck idea...

Moving on....

Out with the next piece of oak....I used a square and drew a line down the middle with a 90* about an inch from the end of the oak....I set the reel on the centerline about an inch in on the oak...the opposite end from the 90* mark....Next I drilled two 5/64ths holes in the mount for the chuck...I was able to slip a socket between the legs and keep deflection of the top leg to a minimum....I then set the mount 1/4 over the centerline on the 90* mark....the entire mount is over the centerline not just off centered...Then I bent up a piece of .078 music wire much in the fashion as found in the Gizmo without the drill chuck....Whaaa Bammm!!! A perfect coil....

It's working and working great on top of that...I'm adding a tongue oil finish on a slick piece of sanded red oak ATM...Cork will be glued too the bottom so it won't scratch up my desk...Many thanks SuperX...Mac I enjoy your writings as well....When the oil dries the "Effect" will be on my agenda....

 

[super_X_drifter]

I've been working with the drill chuck Gizmo for a couple of days....Gizmo and reel attached to a 1X6 piece of oak...I fashioned a wire starter leg attachment point from a large fish hook shank and tack welded that too the chuck...Held the wire at the proper position for the first wrap fine...I did not like the side to side play the handle had when mounted as intended...I worked it out to where you could park the handle and it would stay there...It looked pretty good and operated with a short mandrel sticking out of the chuck....I mounted the reel 10 inches back and so the chuck was a perfect 90*....Then the problems set in....First coil though looking great was spaced....perfect spacing but spaced....Under tension from the reel the chuck and mandrel had too much deflection...The bracket isn't strong enough and the holes are too large...It gained from 90* and that's where the spaces in the coil came from....I could have mounted the reel at an odd angle but I felt over time the deflection if anything would get worse with wear....So I scrapped the drill chuck idea...

Moving on....

Out with the next piece of oak....I used a square and drew a line down the middle with a 90* about an inch from the end of the oak....I set the reel on the centerline about an inch in on the oak...the opposite end from the 90* mark....Next I drilled two 5/64ths holes in the mount for the chuck...I was able to slip a socket between the legs and keep deflection of the top leg to a minimum....I then set the mount 1/4 over the centerline on the 90* mark....the entire mount is over the centerline not just off centered...Then I bent up a piece of .078 music wire much in the fashion as found in the Gizmo without the drill chuck....Whaaa Bammm!!! A perfect coil....

It's working and working great on top of that...I'm adding a tongue oil finish on a slick piece of sanded red oak ATM...Cork will be glued too the bottom so it won't scratch up my desk...Many thanks SuperX...Mac I enjoy your writings as well....When the oil dries the "Effect" will be on my agenda....

That sounds awesome bro. When it's dried can you post a pic? Good work homie

 

[El Dee]

I will SuperX...Thanks again for leading me in this direction !!!!!!

BTW..... .078....5/64ths and 2mm are all really close in measurement...That's the size I'd been winding and what size my mandrel is............

 

[Darryl Licht]

That sounds awesome bro. When it's dried can you post a pic? Good work homie

I'd like to see a pic also!

 

[TheBigE]

Sounds good El Dee. I made a mandrel from .078" too for my gizmo. That is my favorite size coil. Lets me use just a tad more cotton verses a micro since I don't have bottom feed. I am a woodworking hobbyist so looking forward to seeing your set up.

One thing I discovered with my applied weight direct to wire method is that it deflects the mandrel ever so slightly downward. Since the wire is hanging plumb as I wind the slight deflection of the rod is actually pulling the wrap tighter against the previous coil. I believe this along with the tension helps to maximize adhesion of the wraps versus having the wire feed in at a perfect 90*. It seems for me the rod deflection worked in my favor and for you it was the opposite.

 

[etherealink]

Sounds good El Dee. I made a mandrel from .078" too for my gizmo. That is my favorite size coil. Lets me use just a tad more cotton verses a micro since I don't have bottom feed. I am a woodworking hobbyist so looking forward to seeing your set up.

One thing I discovered with my applied weight direct to wire method is that it deflects the mandrel ever so slightly downward. Since the wire is hanging plumb as I wind the slight deflection of the rod is actually pulling the wrap tighter against the previous coil. I believe this along with the tension helps to maximize adhesion of the wraps versus having the wire feed in at a perfect 90*. It seems for me the rod deflection worked in my favor and for you it was the opposite.

E, how are you securing your wire to the weight? Vise grips?

 

[Darryl Licht]

Just loving my tmc: Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

One of the things I've noticed with this particular build; is that it has a very flat heat flux compared to the same resistance coil using a different gauge kanthal. By having a flatter heat flux, I appear to be getting a much more consistent vape across a wider wattage/voltage range. <--- Am I on to something there?

Re-wicked after 8 tanks and I really didn't need to as the cotton was still white. But a drastic flavor change necessitated it. I also heated and cleaned the coil... still looks like new after a few heat and soaks!

Decided to go with just a bit more kgd this time, since more did work better before! I'm having very good luck de-skinning both sides of my kgd and just starting with a wider strip than if only de-skinning one side. I also gently roll the kgd using my pant leg. I've noticed that when using with only one side skinned, the skin was folding and bunching as I pulled it through the 2.25mm id coil. I feel I get better uniformity of wick through the coil this way. Had to stretch it to get it to slide back and forth in the coil; then carefully trimmed so it brushed the rba floor. Wet thoroughly, then brush back wick from juice holes with a toothpick. Install chimney with care not to move wick, primer puff or two looking for bubbles and vape!

I can hit this from 3-5 seconds chain vaping anywhere from 15-30W at 0.8Ω. Best wick so far with this coil! Thick, rich, flavor-filled clouds each and every hit... tank after tank!

 

[TheBigE]

"how are you securing your wire to the weight? Vise grips?"



3 each 2 1/2# plates for a total of 7.5 pounds. So far I've only wound a few coils but it's working great.

 

[etherealink]

Thanks for the tip, I'm going to try working with something similar for testing.

My latest find, a Tesla Onslaught. 3 coils of flavor magnification and a snug draw. The build angle on the negatives is a bit wonky, hence the touchy build.

An update on the great fishing reel hunt:
I found a small "crappie" reel with adjustable tension (open-face is the style, I think. Simple Wal-Mart for about $20 and has a hole through the center of the spool that makes securing wire easy.

Sadly, it doesn't have quite the resistance I'm looking for and even though it's consistent, I want to go further before I jump to making a full jig from the idea.

********

My normal gauges of wire are 26-20ga A1 and they don't play well with small amounts of drag so I'm trying to experiment with higher amounts of weight and seeing if that will push closer to "the effect" I got with 28ga. I switched from 28ga to larger wire because I prefer the more dense vapor that only comes with improved surface area and lower resistance/higher power levels and the problem with that is that the wicking on 28ga does not hold up to the heat required to make the same vapor and needs to be changed far too often (as opposed to 22ga d/c at net 0.2Ω and 80 watts).

I'm also working on parallel and twisted wire under tension to "beef up" 28ga but am following the logic that multiple strands will increase the tension required to get the effect desired.

****
So, basic recap, I'm heading for 10# and 15# with the larger gauge wire to see if that will come closer to matching the adhesion I got with 28 ga. I'll be back with results as I have them.

On the bonus side, my wife got a free Valkyrie hybrid rda from the local shop because they couldn't get it to work... button top fixed that quickly. Now I just have to get through a stress test in the morning and it's smooth sailing till Monday.

Good luck all.

 

[MacTechVpr]

Just loving my tmc: Coil wrapping | Steam Engine | free vaping calculators

One of the things I've noticed with this particular build; is that it has a very flat heat flux compared to the same resistance coil using a different gauge kanthal. By having a flatter heat flux, I appear to be getting a much more consistent vape across a wider wattage/voltage range. <--- Am I on to something there?

Re-wicked after 8 tanks and I really didn't need to as the cotton was still white. But a drastic flavor change necessitated it. I also heated and cleaned the coil... still looks like new after a few heat and soaks!

Decided to go with just a bit more kgd this time, since more did work better before! I'm having very good luck de-skinning both sides of my kgd and just starting with a wider strip than if only de-skinning one side. I also gently roll the kgd using my pant leg. I've noticed that when using with only one side skinned, the skin was folding and bunching as I pulled it through the 2.25mm id coil. I feel I get better uniformity of wick through the coil this way. Had to stretch it to get it to slide back and forth in the coil; then carefully trimmed so it brushed the rba floor. Wet thoroughly, then brush back wick from juice holes with a toothpick. Install chimney with care not to move wick, primer puff or two looking for bubbles and vape!

I can hit this from 3-5 seconds chain vaping anywhere from 15-30W at 0.8Ω. Best wick so far with this coil! Thick, rich, flavor-filled clouds each and every hit... tank after tank!

Yep I think if you're talkin' higher res in the sweet spot of a var dev like the Smok BT50W. You def want to kick volts and gain a current advantage as cig noted. But the biggest advantage of a t.m.c.'s geometry is the concentrated transfer of that uniformly distributed power to the maximum wicking surface. That is the only thing that matters. Only the energy transfer between wire and wick vaporize. In between wire spaces, on wire itself as if it were a stove top pan, all the allusions to magical powers of one design or another…Show me the result over time. All the energy from that mass…lost in space and not any different than the waste in dissipation from a step-down. The only thing of consequence is the vaporization zone and that does not reside on the exterior coil surface. Anything outside that is just cooking juice (or scorching it post vaporization). Can't speak for all but I can't taste hot coffee. Again maybe my preference, but I'm not talkin' like but the tech to get to either, diffusion or concentration.

So far I'm seeing no end to the benefit of denser wicking with the impressive airflow the ST provides. However, I'm pondering the adequacy of the juice channel on the original ST and Mini RBA's I got. Thoroughly test the wicking strategies. My take on the fibers is that the high-quality (combed long fibers) of the KGD backing is the very dense linear conduit, as I mentioned, and the inner filler more retentive with the first being the modifier for flow. I seldom use both sides and more frequently add or retain the filler. Stretching helps get anything in…LOL. Here's an area where preference matters though and what works for you is valuable. However, there needs to be enough wick to support the flow needed at the coil (should be obvious). You never run out of brew if the keg's kept full. So I'm actually designing some experiments to totally damn up the juice channels for flow mediation.

Meantime I'm stickin' to my pair of big-bottomed girls for wicks.



Good luck.