Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.
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Ok, I have kind of a monster post that I'm dying to drop that could explain both possibilities Russ... after shopping prepare for some science, kinda lol.I can eat crow with the best of em. Truth was / is I had never mounted, much less vaped a coil from the coil master until their persistence with sending me that kit spurned my curiosity. I figured, these guys have balls sending me this deal again so maybe I should give it a second look.
The coils vaped the same if not better than the ones I was making previously.
Now let me say that I may not make as good a tensioned wind as Mac. But I see no difference between the vape between these or the ones I used a fishing reel or hand applied force to tension with the gizmo.
I don't have the patience for winding on a pin vice either.
There are only two possible conclusions for me:
1. My tensioned could were not really tensioned coils and sucked balls.
Or
2. There is no discernible difference between my tensioned coils and these.
And I also have to realize that removing the starter wrap, while not my favorite sport, takes about as much effort and concentration as mouthing the gizmo to my desk getting out my reel and fastening the wire in the wingnut, so it's 1/2 dozen of one vs six of the other.
Bottom line for me is I can be pretty stubborn and quick to dismiss a method that conflicts with something I've put a lot of time and effort into.
Even at my age, we learn new stuff all the time, every day and one of the things I have a hard time learning is to try different approaches even if they initially appear to be a joke.
Burp. That was a lot of crow. But it tastes good. I'll take seconds please
Just marking my territory...
I'm so lost.
I'm so lost.
Ok, so I got bored on a day off of work and decided to get geeky since I couldn't find the info I wanted online anywhere. Here's the results of a very basic test of the point at which a few gauges of wire begin to stretch:
28ga A1: 10-12lbs (1" stretch)
26ga A1: 20lbs (1.5" stretch)
24ga A1: 33lbs (1" stretch)
22ga A1: 45lbs (1/2" stretch)
Now, while there seems to be a pattern to the rise in size of wire gauge and weight needed to stretch it, I want to note that this is a very rough test with a very simple fish scale used to measure static resistance as weight. Also, the length of stretch is far beyond what would be needed for cohesion and a solid bond between the wraps of the coil itself; I am no expert, but I would say roughly 50-75% of the force or maybe less would get to the "effect" we are after. I'll continue to experiment some as I can get to better equipment and ways to test for the effect.
Basically as I understand it, here is a physical demonstration of the adhesion we are looking for:
If you look at a length of rope near a snug knot you can see where the extended length is constricted by the knot itself, and that area that is constricted is made longer when the rope is pulled on and stretched.
If it was pulled hard enough it would stretch permanently or break (this defeats the purpose with wire as it would reduce the diameter and increase the resistance per inch). Here is the fun part, if allowed to pull itself back towards the knot it will expand towards it's original diameter and hold tight (this is why knots like the clove hitch work). It's this expansion as the wire tries to expand back to it's size that gives us the adhesive effect that pulls the coils back onto themselves and holds them solid into whatever shape they are formed into. This is also why it's more difficult to create a coil as stable as a t.m.c. while wrapping wire around a screwdriver or something similar.
My verdict on the kuro coiler is still waiting since I don't know much about it yet but I will stay tuned.
28ga A1: 10-12lbs (1" stretch)
26ga A1: 20lbs (1.5" stretch)
24ga A1: 33lbs (1" stretch)
22ga A1: 45lbs (1/2" stretch)
Now, while there seems to be a pattern to the rise in size of wire gauge and weight needed to stretch it, I want to note that this is a very rough test with a very simple fish scale used to measure static resistance as weight. Also, the length of stretch is far beyond what would be needed for cohesion and a solid bond between the wraps of the coil itself; I am no expert, but I would say roughly 50-75% of the force or maybe less would get to the "effect" we are after. I'll continue to experiment some as I can get to better equipment and ways to test for the effect.
Basically as I understand it, here is a physical demonstration of the adhesion we are looking for:
If you look at a length of rope near a snug knot you can see where the extended length is constricted by the knot itself, and that area that is constricted is made longer when the rope is pulled on and stretched.
If it was pulled hard enough it would stretch permanently or break (this defeats the purpose with wire as it would reduce the diameter and increase the resistance per inch). Here is the fun part, if allowed to pull itself back towards the knot it will expand towards it's original diameter and hold tight (this is why knots like the clove hitch work). It's this expansion as the wire tries to expand back to it's size that gives us the adhesive effect that pulls the coils back onto themselves and holds them solid into whatever shape they are formed into. This is also why it's more difficult to create a coil as stable as a t.m.c. while wrapping wire around a screwdriver or something similar.
My verdict on the kuro coiler is still waiting since I don't know much about it yet but I will stay tuned.
If anybody doubts the benefits of tension, let me chime in here (uninvited):
As a (former pro) guitar player, I can tell you all about tension.
No matter how expensive a set of strings are, they always must undergo a "stretch tuning" when first installed. We install the strings, then tune them, then stretch them one-by-one. This throws them out of tune again. Then we re-tune. Then we re-stretch.
Each time we stretch, the tuning goes off a little less. Finally, we get all the stretch out. Then, and ONLY then, can we rely on the strings to stay in tune while we play.
So what happens, is that the "metal matrix" in the string is not fully "set" when you first install them. The stretching and re-tuning causes the matrix to loose it's slackness; ie, to tighten up. Then it grabs back onto itself. At this point, it's stable and at it's most efficient. Guitar players instinctively recognize this when it happens; we can hear the tone and resonance change when we play them.
The effect on the strings is permanent, until they get too old, and fade (or break) away. Makes sense, though, nothing lasts forever.
So I can easily see how tension on our coiling wires can make a big difference. The tension is making everything more efficient and consistent. I'm a tension coiler now.
Thanks!
-Johntodd
As a (former pro) guitar player, I can tell you all about tension.
No matter how expensive a set of strings are, they always must undergo a "stretch tuning" when first installed. We install the strings, then tune them, then stretch them one-by-one. This throws them out of tune again. Then we re-tune. Then we re-stretch.
Each time we stretch, the tuning goes off a little less. Finally, we get all the stretch out. Then, and ONLY then, can we rely on the strings to stay in tune while we play.
So what happens, is that the "metal matrix" in the string is not fully "set" when you first install them. The stretching and re-tuning causes the matrix to loose it's slackness; ie, to tighten up. Then it grabs back onto itself. At this point, it's stable and at it's most efficient. Guitar players instinctively recognize this when it happens; we can hear the tone and resonance change when we play them.
The effect on the strings is permanent, until they get too old, and fade (or break) away. Makes sense, though, nothing lasts forever.
So I can easily see how tension on our coiling wires can make a big difference. The tension is making everything more efficient and consistent. I'm a tension coiler now.
Thanks!
-Johntodd
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As a former not so pro guitar player myself I approve of this analogy
We do similar things with the large mooring lines used to tie up aircraft carriers and large ocean going cargo ships.
As a former not so pro guitar player myself I approve of this analogy
We do similar things with the large mooring lines used to tie up aircraft carriers and large ocean going cargo ships.
As a former not so pro guitar player myself I approve of this analogy
Same here, USS Roosevelt CVN-71. Bostswain's mate, master helmsman, decorative linework expert and SAR swimmer lol
I got tighter on the tolerances of the elongation test and am working on narrowing the percentage of elongation needed to hit the target adhesion rate.
I'm going to test out some builds with varying weight to find the target and see what shakes out... more when I get it typed up.
I'm going to test out some builds with varying weight to find the target and see what shakes out... more when I get it typed up.
Not sure how to grade the test guys, gonna need some opinions on the results. I'll be posting it in my blog here shortly... thanks for the help in advance.
What happened to the NEW SuperX video on CoilMaster?
Would love to see some close-up video on proper technique. Especially the beginnings position on the wire position on the rod through the little hole, in most videos including Coil Masters own, (video angle is too wide), it's hard to see the starting position of the wire, if not correct, you can get overlap especially with the thinner guage wire. I did seem to learn early on NOT to use too much inner pressure on the spinning part of the handle as you turn it, that started the overlap problem quickly. There are a lot of reviews online and YouTube, but not very many technique videos, granted its not overly complicated, but there seems room for some better ones.
I had some difficulty with overlap on my first attempts with the 2.0mm mandrel and Kanthal 28 guage. I have all the tools to also attempt tension coiling off the Kanthal roll with a pin vise. In my first attempts it does seem easier to use the coil master tool, but if there is a noticeable and decent advantage to pin vise hand wrapping off the coil, to make more tension, then it might be worth the extra effort?
I believe the only way to compare tension wrapping versus a wrapping tool like Coil-Master, would be identical devices, toppers/atties, wickings, wattage, juice, and ohm builds, making just the type of coiling wrap used as the only variable. Then of course the subjective part of judging any vaping differences noted, and over time if there are any coil longevity differences between wrapping techniques. Most of this beyond my beginners experience, but not folks like SuperX and others here, if one had the time and interest. Real experiments not annoctdotal stories of 2nd hand results of one type being better then another technique. Maybe it's not possible to notice a real world vaping difference, or maybe it all ends up being entirely subjective?
Would love to see some close-up video on proper technique. Especially the beginnings position on the wire position on the rod through the little hole, in most videos including Coil Masters own, (video angle is too wide), it's hard to see the starting position of the wire, if not correct, you can get overlap especially with the thinner guage wire. I did seem to learn early on NOT to use too much inner pressure on the spinning part of the handle as you turn it, that started the overlap problem quickly. There are a lot of reviews online and YouTube, but not very many technique videos, granted its not overly complicated, but there seems room for some better ones.
I had some difficulty with overlap on my first attempts with the 2.0mm mandrel and Kanthal 28 guage. I have all the tools to also attempt tension coiling off the Kanthal roll with a pin vise. In my first attempts it does seem easier to use the coil master tool, but if there is a noticeable and decent advantage to pin vise hand wrapping off the coil, to make more tension, then it might be worth the extra effort?
I believe the only way to compare tension wrapping versus a wrapping tool like Coil-Master, would be identical devices, toppers/atties, wickings, wattage, juice, and ohm builds, making just the type of coiling wrap used as the only variable. Then of course the subjective part of judging any vaping differences noted, and over time if there are any coil longevity differences between wrapping techniques. Most of this beyond my beginners experience, but not folks like SuperX and others here, if one had the time and interest. Real experiments not annoctdotal stories of 2nd hand results of one type being better then another technique. Maybe it's not possible to notice a real world vaping difference, or maybe it all ends up being entirely subjective?
Hi Mt thanks for the feedback.
Wanted to point out that the definition is important as well as what it does. Tension is strain. A force in nature, tensile force…stretch or elongation. It imparts energy into the wire in the form of heat, jeules being equivalent to Neuton meters of force. Accordingly the very internal molecular characteristics of wire are changed but to a greater extent than with forming which merely reshapes the material imposing only a fraction of the strain energy needed to attain adhesion.
I posed the question much earlier as to how does a forming coiler elongate wire. So yours is a good question. Just so we're clear on what we're talkin' about on this thread.
Good luck all.
Hi Mt thanks for the feedback.
Wanted to point out that the definition is important as well as what it does. Tension is strain. A force in nature, tensile force…stretch or elongation. It imparts energy into the wire in the form of heat, jeules being equivalent to Neuton meters of force. Accordingly the very internal molecular characteristics of wire are changed but to a greater extent than with forming which merely reshapes the material imposing only a fraction of the strain energy needed to attain adhesion.
I posed the question much earlier as to how does a forming coiler elongate wire. So yours is a good question. Just so we're clear on what we're talkin' about on this thread.
Good luck all.
I get it Mac, I have read all your posts. But in the end, to me, it's all about the results, not so much the path or science to get there. Unfortunately after all the science and technique, the results may in fact simply come down to opinion on the quality of VAPE etc. and that introduces the subjectivity aspect, which is always hard to quantify at best.
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