Tensioned Micro Coils. The next step.

[etherealink]

Ok guys, here's where I need the help. Sorry for flooding the thread lol.

Momentary Elongation of wire, leading to adhesion of wire surfaces in a contact microcoil-

Theory: The wire should stretch a minute amount and return to its original length and diameter as the tension is removed without losing the shape of the coils, causing deformation, permanently changing the resistance or losing contact between the wraps of the coil.

Concept of Test:
* If static weight is applied in the right amount, the stretch property of the wire should allow for it to retain it's original diameter & return to a pre-tensioned diameter and length, therefore holding the exact form of the coil with the maximum amount of stability in both shape and resistance. If the wire stretches any permanently measurable amount, the amount of weight is too high and must be reduced as the diameter of the wire will be changed, thus changing the natural resistance of the wire and causing the build to be thrown off.
* Whatever the permanent stretch weight is, the momentary stretch weight must be considerably lower to allow the wire to recoil and bind onto itself. Otherwise, the whole concept only serves to keep wraps of the coil as close as possible. ******************************************* Momentary Elongation Test results:

28ga A1: No stretch length: 4 in Tensioned length: 4 1/16 in Weight: 4kg
* Full return is possible at 4kg to nearly N/S length.

26ga A1: N/S length: 4 7/8 in T/L: 4 15/16 in Weight: 7kg
* Minor return to N/S length after applied weight, approx 80% return showing that adhesion concept is possible.

24ga A1: N/S Length: 5 in T/L: 5 1/16 in Weight: 9kg
* 24ga shows much more resistance to stretch, but possibly more adhesive properties because of that and due to its increased diameter. ********************************************* Elongation proof testing:
Build specs: 24ga A1 d/c build, 7/6 wrap, 0.35 ohm net target, 3mm ID

Test build 1: 7lb static weight (50% measured stretch weight)
*0.35ohm net res. Slight off-center firing to even & slightly cool just before legs and moderate orange color at 30w with full pulse of ~10 sec.
* Vapor production substantial, warm, moist & dense. Increased from non-tmc of same res and gauge at same power.

Test build 2: 10lb static weight (70% measured stretch)
* 0.38 ohm net res, moderate firing across full surface of coil surface with minor dark spotting in center of one coil during dry firing, heat ending almost instantly at legs.

Test build 3: 14lb static weight (100% measured stretch)
* 0.35 ohm net res, easy firing solid across the full surface of the coil with no discoloration. ********************************************** Expanded Build Profiling:
Test Build 1- 0.35 ohm net d/c without leg bend 3mm ID, vaping range 70-85w (7lb tension):
* Build tested on Doge v1, somewhat airy by airflow, coils mounted centered and outboard to maximize airflow with =/- 5mm legs. Bend in neg leg to allow centering with air holes; wicked with rayon.
* Coils made on modified coil gizmo with 1/8in rod, under 7lb of static tension via hanging weight. Coils are steady on building and mounting, but require a leg bend to ensure no separation during centering of coils.

Build Performance Notes:
*24ga must be held solid as it's centered but, has a very fast response time even at 30-50w when tensioned. Average vaping power of 70-85w gives near instant ramp up and almost no pvs. Coloring of wire (rainbowing) is difficult to achieve but oxidation appears consistent and solid across the entire surface.
* Density easily outperforms a 0.09 ohm hand-wrapped build on a tube mech with the same RDA. Tested with 80% vg unflavored diy and no flavor shown from wick or wire contamination. Heavy juice usage is nearly instant, crackle similar to frying bacon with no large popping even with a 4+ second draw. ****************************************
Test Build 2- 0.38 ohm d/c net res, with leg bend, 3mm ID, vaping range 75-85w (10lb tension):
* Build tested on Mutation x v1 clone with pre-bend on neg legs, d/c build shows +/- 0.38 ohm net res after dry firing & oxidation, wicked with rayon on an ID of 1/8in and wrapped under 10lbs of static hanging weight. Coils were mounted outboard & centered to maximize airflow, pre-bend in neg legs controls separation of coil wraps when mounting, +/- 5mm legs on each coil.
* Coils show even firing across full surface area with one showing a small dark spot during dry firing, no abnormal effects noted while vaping.

Build Performance Notes:
* Build fires near instantly (sub 1 sec) at 80w and shows little to no pvs after firing. Vapor production is smooth and dense, mildly warm and sweet. Juice usage is heavy as with the last build but seems to be solid with no cooking or caramelization and the wick shows no signs of scorching even on long draws.

Build 3 not noted as the results are nearly identical as Builds 1 & 2.

 

[Mactavish]

How do the coils vape with all else being equal other then your stretch settings? That's a TASK, but really all that counts in the end!

 

[etherealink]

How do the coils vape with all else being equal other then your stretch settings? That's a TASK, but really all that counts in the end!

Imho the second vapes the best at 10lb but honestly, no, it's not all that counts. Stability and longevity as well as repeatability are a major factor for me with my job. If it takes me some wasted wire to be able to repeat 20-30 builds worth of coils that I only have to mount and wick (a 30 sec job) its worth it.

 

[Mactavish]

I respect the work, time and effort, for me the final vape is the judgement. Stability and longevity not as important to me, as Kanthal is cheap and I plan on making one at a time for my as now, only build, the Egrip RBA. My first coil-master coil was just put in use, so I have no data, so far I have struggled with wick length and thickness, too much, I get juice out the bottom hole, too little, gurgling and juice up the chimney. The coil so far seems to fire nicely, but until I remove this first one I won't know if it solves one of my other issues, the juice I like so far as my all day Vape must have a lot of crap added. (joes Flavorz "Banana/mango/peach" 12mg). I originally started with the included Joyetec Atties, then my Aspire 1.6 ohm BVC cotton coils, then moved to the RBA with purchased PRE-MADE spread coils pre-wicked. With perhaps 10ml of juice run, these coils get gunked up, turn black, crude on top of coils, and not worth my time to dry fire and replace cotton. That's one of the reasons I got sucked into coil building. Will be curious if a tension wrapped or Coil-Master wrapped coil will burn this particular juice with less crap building up so quickly on the coils. At least one major advantage I can see so far with an RBA, is being able to see what's going on with the coil. The pre-made replaceable atties are convenient, but you can't see what's going on inside them. I may have to switch to a clearer juice in the EGRIP if the juice I like fouls them up so fast.

 

[etherealink]

Fair point M, quick guess... your adv is pretty high in vg and pretty sweet? Both very common to fouling coils quickly, as is post-vape-sizzle where the coil cools down very slowly after firing and continues to cook the juice rather than vaporize it almost instantly. Running high-power on low airflow atomizers tend to do the same, just not as badly.

Best of luck

I respect the work, time and effort, for me the final vape is the judgement. Stability and longevity not as important to me, as Kanthal is cheap and I plan on making one at a time for my as now, only build, the Egrip RBA. My first coil-master coil was just put in use, so I have no data, so far I have struggled with wick length and thickness, too much, I get juice out the bottom hole, too little, gurgling and juice up the chimney. The coil so far seems to fire nicely, but until I remove this first one I won't know if it solves one of my other issues, the juice I like so far as my all day Vape must have a lot of crap added. (joes Flavorz "Banana/mango/peach" 12mg). I originally started with the included Joyetec Atties, then my Aspire 1.6 ohm BVC cotton coils, then moved to the RBA with purchased PRE-MADE spread coils pre-wicked. With perhaps 10ml of juice run, these coils get gunked up, turn black, crude on top of coils, and not worth my time to dry fire and replace cotton. That's one of the reasons I got sucked into coil building. Will be curious if a tension wrapped or Coil-Master wrapped coil will burn this particular juice with less crap building up so quickly on the coils. At least one major advantage I can see so far with an RBA, is being able to see what's going on with the coil. The pre-made replaceable atties are convenient, but you can't see what's going on inside them. I may have to switch to a clearer juice in the EGRIP if the juice I like fouls them up so fast.

 

[Mactavish]

This juice is supposedly 50/50 and indeed sweet, now and then I increase wattage to hopefully burn off some junk internally as well as cure gurgles, not always successful. I do have a 2nd favorite "Vape Chemist - Philppine Mango", this is much clearer juice. So my next coil test will see how my built coils hold up with a less sweet juice. My past tanks are all Clearomizers, Nautilis Mini, Kanger Nano, etc. The Egrip RBA is my first rebuildable, so I'm a real rookie, but a fast learner. I don't really want to choose my juice by coil response, as you are mostly immune to this limitation when using the brand name pre-made coils, you just trash them sooner, though even my banana flavor seems to last longer on those coils then the cotton pre-made RBA coils. So I'll be interested in seeing how my first MC contact coil holds up to banana, next test would be making a real tension coil, and see if there is any difference.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I get it Mac, I have read all your posts. But in the end, to me, it's all about the results, not so much the path or science to get there. Unfortunately after all the science and technique, the results may in fact simply come down to opinion on the quality of VAPE etc. and that introduces the subjectivity aspect, which is always hard to quantify at best.

Strain is a tool we can use to fine tune the functionality and capabilities of our winds. Understanding how it does is the only way it can help our vape that matters. It exists whatever our preferences are. Not tryin' to diss anybody by pointing that out. Results are not what we prefer they be. That comes later. We get the vape that we build. How we do matters.

I've attempted to explain when and how variability in strain affects our vape. The adaptation I introduced to stabilize strain is a tool that sets a point, like 0 on a barometer. I believe confidently it's solidly based on scientific principle as others more knowledgeable than me have corroborated. The answers I get are very revealing in my trials whether results are understood. And that's something I've very much taken in consideration. They can be, easily, both determined and differentiated by most of us.

So no Mt. we don't dismiss science for preference. We use it instead to get to it. We fail when we don't use it properly, work against it to our detriment or ignore it completely. Classic analogy comes to mind in how we choose to maintain our cars. These are choices, not preferences in my book. Although we can call them that.

If what's been shared here by some of us works for ya in some way in rebuilding, great! Glad the info helped. But strain always does [work]. It is there.

Good luck Mt.

 

[etherealink]

This juice is supposedly 50/50 and indeed sweet, now and then I increase wattage to hopefully burn off some junk internally as well as cure gurgles, not always successful.... So my next coil test will see how my built coils hold up with a less sweet juice....The Egrip RBA is my first rebuildable, so I'm a real rookie, but a fast learner. I don't really want to choose my juice by coil response, as you are mostly immune to this limitation when using the brand name pre-made coils, you just trash them sooner, though even my banana flavor seems to last longer on those coils then the cotton pre-made RBA coils. So I'll be interested in seeing how my first MC contact coil holds up to banana, next test would be making a real tension coil, and see if there is any difference.

Ok, I cut this apart on purpose, since you are learning to rebuild.

First, you have parts of the equation but you are moving too many variables at one time. Increasing wattage to "burn off" gunk on a coil still in a full tank will not work like dry burning and re-wicking does, you are just making the coil hotter with each press of the fire button.

Second, the sweeter a juice is and the slower your cool-down time on your coil the faster your coil will gunk up. Think of burning cheese in a pan.

Finally, simply trashing a factory coil when it stops working properly is one of the reasons for a contact micro coil and further for a tensioned micro coil. Having less variations in the coil surface and a more even heating leads to faster and more efficient vaporizing of the juice you are running through it, as well as improved response in cooling after the fire button is released. All of these ttranslate to less build up on the coil even with a heavy vg and sweet juice at high power.

Take some time as you start rebuilding to control just one element at a time and it will be much easier to get the hang of. Thats part of the idea with jigs and tension, to make it easy to repeat once you find yoyr own sweet spot.

Best of luck.

 

[Mactavish]

Strain is a tool we can use to fine tune the functionality and capabilities of our winds. Understanding how it does is the only way it can help our vape that matters. It exists whatever our preferences are. Not tryin' to diss anybody by pointing that out. Results are not what we prefer they be. That comes later. We get the vape that we build. How we do matters.

I've attempted to explain when and how variability in strain affects our vape. The adaptation I introduced to stabilize strain is a tool that sets a point, like 0 on a barometer. I believe confidently it's solidly based on scientific principle as others more knowledgeable than me have corroborated. The answers I get are very revealing in my trials whether results are understood. And that's something I've very much taken in consideration. They can be, easily, both determined and differentiated by most of us.

So no Mt. we don't dismiss science for preference. We use it instead to get to it. We fail when we don't use it properly, work against it to our detriment or ignore it completely. Classic analogy comes to mind in how we choose to maintain our cars. These are choices, not preferences in my book. Although we can call them that.

If what's been shared here by some of us works for ya in some way in rebuilding, great! Glad the info helped. But strain always does [work]. It is there.

Good luck Mt.

Not dismissing science for preference. I would prefer to start with my preference and then find the best "science", technique to get there. I believe "technique" is a better word choice here, as using the term science indicates an experiment with results that are repeatable, and not influenced by opinion and preference, but only facts. In your experiences and 2nd party feedback, you have come to a conclusion, that is still not a scientific conclusion as to tension being the technique that always gives the best "personal" result. I'm not arguing one way or the other, as I have previously mentioned, I have purchased all the tools (EXCEPT FISHING REEL & GIZMO), so that I can hopefully, eventually come to my own, unscientific results, which I will happily share.

 

[Johntodd]

We may not get a true scientific conclusion here due to the subjective nature of vaping. We'd have to test each build with a breath machine in order to read accurate data about ramp-up/down, vapor volume, temp, etc.

Instead, we all vape differently, so a general consensus is all that we can reach.

IOW, if you like it, it's good.

 

[super_X_drifter]

Some nice "scientific" types of info interjected here. Good work ethereal bro. Yeah the subjectivity and practicality elements are the wild cards.

In just over two years of rebuilding the biggest game changer to me was going from 4 wraps around what, a 1/8" screw for about an ohm to the 1/16"ish diameter micro coil about two years ago to the day. IMO a superior vape for my taste / preferences to the coils of yore.

Since then I've observed major improvements in ease of coil creation and duplicity but the vape has been pretty much the same for me as the first micro coil I posted about.

I can say with all honesty and a ton of humility that I notice no difference in the vape between the coils I've made over the last 2 weeks and the coils I've been making for the last two years. Zero. If anything I like the vape better. And my coils are far from perfect once I mount em.

That seems to be the biggest hurdle I jump every time I rebuild - mounting the coil without disturbing it or it separating - wether I schwartzeneggerrd it with my king fu grip on the spool and turned the rod, got out my pole and reel and controlled the tension, just held the wire under very little / moderate tension on the spool and turned the rod or used the coil master.

What seems key to me is that the coil is wound or formed with a consistent tension variable - be it enough to stretch the wire or just enough to form it around the rod.

Again I'm no scientist and I'm not blinded by science. What I care about in this exact order are:

Vape
Ease to duplicate
Ease to create

That's pretty much it.

Now again, either I'm COMPLETELY missing something in my tensioning technique like by a freakin country mile (it's happened with other things in life, trust me) or the differences vape wise between an Arnolded coil and a coil master coil imperceptible to me. Same attys, same juice, same resistance, same wire. No discernible difference.

Now where my rebuilding world suffers with dual coils is keeping the coils perfect during installation. I continue to try to improve that end of my game.

But even with that said, I have noticed that even a coil that splays a lil bit, once pulsed and cueued will fire evenly and consistently.

But the next time I wind me up a coil with my coil masters I will grab the wire with two pairs of pliers and stretch it a lil before I slide it in to wind it up

 

[Mactavish]

Well said SuperX. Are you still planning a Coil Master how to video? I posted a page back, now buried. I've watched most of you vids by now and do indeed see your progression over a few short years. Glad to see you are not bound by your past experiences but have learned and progressed, the best we can all hope for.

BTW: Your wicking videos are particularly helpful as the challenge on my tiny Egrip RBA, is to manage juice flow. There is a huge difference in the results, between small differences in wick length and thickness. Tight airflow, juice flooding, leaking and gurgles etc. Searching for the perfect balance then being able to reproduce it, is the key for me.

 

[gpjoe]

I can eat crow with the best of em . Truth was / is I had never mounted, much less vaped a coil from the coil master until their persistence with sending me that kit spurned my curiosity. I figured, these guys have balls sending me this deal again so maybe I should give it a second look.

The coils vaped the same if not better than the ones I was making previously.

Now let me say that I may not make as good a tensioned wind as Mac. But I see no difference between the vape between these or the ones I used a fishing reel or hand applied force to tension with the gizmo.

I don't have the patience for winding on a pin vice either.

There are only two possible conclusions for me:
1. My tensioned could were not really tensioned coils and sucked balls.

Or

2. There is no discernible difference between my tensioned coils and these.

And I also have to realize that removing the starter wrap, while not my favorite sport, takes about as much effort and concentration as mouthing the gizmo to my desk getting out my reel and fastening the wire in the wingnut, so it's 1/2 dozen of one vs six of the other.

Bottom line for me is I can be pretty stubborn and quick to dismiss a method that conflicts with something I've put a lot of time and effort into.

Even at my age, we learn new stuff all the time, every day and one of the things I have a hard time learning is to try different approaches even if they initially appear to be a joke.

Burp. That was a lot of crow. But it tastes good. I'll take seconds please

Oh my...this has nothing to do with crow pie. In fact I don't remember you as one of the members that poo-poo'd the Coil Master. Quite the opposite, I considered your reply to be candid and straight forward. It just feels good to have one of our resident coil gurus agree that the Coil Master produces a pretty darn nice result with little effort.

That's all.

 

[gpjoe]

If anybody doubts the benefits of tension, let me chime in here (uninvited):

As a (former pro) guitar player, I can tell you all about tension.

No matter how expensive a set of strings are, they always must undergo a "stretch tuning" when first installed. We install the strings, then tune them, then stretch them one-by-one. This throws them out of tune again. Then we re-tune. Then we re-stretch.

Each time we stretch, the tuning goes off a little less. Finally, we get all the stretch out. Then, and ONLY then, can we rely on the strings to stay in tune while we play.

So what happens, is that the "metal matrix" in the string is not fully "set" when you first install them. The stretching and re-tuning causes the matrix to loose it's slackness; ie, to tighten up. Then it grabs back onto itself. At this point, it's stable and at it's most efficient. Guitar players instinctively recognize this when it happens; we can hear the tone and resonance change when we play them.

The effect on the strings is permanent, until they get too old, and fade (or break) away. Makes sense, though, nothing lasts forever.

So I can easily see how tension on our coiling wires can make a big difference. The tension is making everything more efficient and consistent. I'm a tension coiler now.

Thanks!
-Johntodd

I agree that guitar strings stretch when new and require time to settle in (I played a little, but sounds like you are infinitely more experienced) but I don't know how that relates to a piece of Kanthal used for vaping.

While it may be true that stretching the Kanthal while winding the coil somehow changes the molecular structure of the wire, I can't believe that it will have any impact on the vape-ability of the coil, or cause any discernible difference between it and any other coil.

Not saying that it is exactly the same, just saying that I don't think it matters.

 

[etherealink]

Some nice "scientific" types of info interjected here. Good work ethereal bro. Yeah the subjectivity and practicality elements are the wild cards.

In just over two years of rebuilding the biggest game changer to me was going from 4 wraps around what, a 1/8" screw for about an ohm to the 1/16"ish diameter micro coil about two years ago to the day. IMO a superior vape for my taste / preferences to the coils of yore.

Since then I've observed major improvements in ease of coil creation and duplicity but the vape has been pretty much the same for me as the first micro coil I posted about.

I can say with all honesty and a ton of humility that I notice no difference in the vape between the coils I've made over the last 2 weeks and the coils I've been making for the last two years. Zero. If anything I like the vape better. And my coils are far from perfect once I mount em.

That seems to be the biggest hurdle I jump every time I rebuild - mounting the coil without disturbing it or it separating - wether I schwartzeneggerrd it with my king fu grip on the spool and turned the rod, got out my pole and reel and controlled the tension, just held the wire under very little / moderate tension on the spool and turned the rod or used the coil master.

What seems key to me is that the coil is wound or formed with a consistent tension variable - be it enough to stretch the wire or just enough to form it around the rod.

Again I'm no scientist and I'm not blinded by science. What I care about in this exact order are:

Vape
Ease to duplicate
Ease to create

That's pretty much it.

Now again, either I'm COMPLETELY missing something in my tensioning technique like by a freakin country mile (it's happened with other things in life, trust me) or the differences vape wise between an Arnolded coil and a coil master coil imperceptible to me. Same attys, same juice, same resistance, same wire. No discernible difference.

Now where my rebuilding world suffers with dual coils is keeping the coils perfect during installation. I continue to try to improve that end of my game.

But even with that said, I have noticed that even a coil that splays a lil bit, once pulsed and cueued will fire evenly and consistently.

But the next time I wind me up a coil with my coil masters I will grab the wire with two pairs of pliers and stretch it a lil before I slide it in to wind it up

Thanks Russ, not really going for scientific but just for a result I could duplicate about what the wire did itself; looking around all I could find was break strength in newton meters and thats not something I can measure at home.

Honestly, I can't tell a huge difference between the 3 builds except which I prefer... even that could just be the rda it's on.

My only suggestion on having wraps separate when you mount them is a 90° bend in the negative leg to give you a touch of extra space from positive to negative post, done carefully on the same thing you wrapped on, of course lol. That has saved a ton of fixing coils for me over the last 11 months and I try to recommend it to everyone that rums rda's. Think of it like this " Г " coming off the negative post and a straight leg going into the positive, works like a charm even at 20ga ni80.

Hope the info helps a few folks, I'm still waiting to call out Turbo to get more controlled with it if he has time.

Fwiw, I see no "major" difference in coils either lightly tensioned or pushed to almost permanently stretching. As long as the wraps are tight, the only major change is how solid of a "tube" the coil forms for wicking it.

Good luck folks, whatever works for you, enjoy it.

 

[super_X_drifter]

Thanks Russ, not really going for scientific but just for a result I could duplicate about what the wire did itself; looking around all I could find was break strength in newton meters and thats not something I can measure at home.

Honestly, I can't tell a huge difference between the 3 builds except which I prefer... even that could just be the rda it's on.

My only suggestion on having wraps separate when you mount them is a 90° bend in the negative leg to give you a touch of extra space from positive to negative post, done carefully on the same thing you wrapped on, of course lol. That has saved a ton of fixing coils for me over the last 11 months and I try to recommend it to everyone that rums rda's. Think of it like this " Г " coming off the negative post and a straight leg going into the positive, works like a charm even at 20ga ni80.

Hope the info helps a few folks, I'm still waiting to call out Turbo to get more controlled with it if he has time.

Fwiw, I see no "major" difference in coils either lightly tensioned or pushed to almost permanently stretching. As long as the wraps are tight, the only major change is how solid of a "tube" the coil forms for wicking it.

Good luck folks, whatever works for you, enjoy it.

I got a sweet tool now to hold the coil on the rod and bend the leg

It'll be in my coil master vid that I shot but haven't had time to produce yet

 

[super_X_drifter]

Oh my...this has nothing to do with crow pie. In fact I don't remember you as one of the members that poo-poo'd the Coil Master. Quite the opposite, I considered your reply to be candid and straight forward. It just feels good to have one of our resident coil gurus agree that the Coil Master produces a pretty darn nice result with little effort.

That's all.

No I publicly trashed it pretty good . Vid is shot just need to get time to produce / upload it

Thanks brother

 

[oplholik]

oohhh noooo, another tool I gotta buy?

 

[gpjoe]

No I publicly trashed it pretty good . Vid is shot just need to get time to produce / upload it

Thanks brother

Well I'll have to take you word on it - cause I'm not going back to try and find it as it serves no useful purpose. I'm going to echo what etherealink posted and say that each person should use whatever method works best for them.

 

[Mactavish]

oohhh noooo, another tool I gotta buy?

We have to guess what department it's in. We already have covered, hardware, sewing, fishing. Let the guessing begin!