This is interesting, I just read the whole chapter. It's a bit confusing tho, appears in one place to say that some of Israel will come back to God, and some won't. I'm not sure.
The Abomination of Desolation?
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That's right. Put it in it's proper context. God did not reject..they rejected. God offered salvation to them first.
and is that not unlike everyone else?
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
A. In chapter nine Paul proved God had the right to:
1. Use whomsoever He chose to His glory, and
2. Choose Abraham out of Ur of the Chaldees. Israel said in essence that was a good choice.
3. This was all right with them as long as Isaac, Jacob, and fellow Jews were being chosen.
4. He also points out how God raised up Pharaoh to His glory. This, too, was all right because God was helping Israel.
5. However, when God told them there were vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor and that He was rejecting Israel because of her unbelief and extending salvation to the Gentiles, the Jews did not like God’s choice.
6. He quotes the Old Testament prophets to prove that:
a. God had foretold of His accepting the Gentiles.
b. Only a remnant of Israel would be saved.
B. In chapter ten Paul shows that:
1. Israel had rejected the righteousness of God and was going about to establish their own righteousness.
2. Those who live by the Old Testament must live by those things.
3. If they were going to be saved, they would have to believe in Jesus and confess Him with their mouth.
4. Isaiah saw that not all would obey.
5. Hopefully when Israel showed what God had done for the Gentiles, they might be moved with jealousy and obey God.
6. Israel has been a rebellious and disobedient people.
C. With the aforementioned facts being true, Paul comes to chapter eleven and asked the question which he knew they wanted to ask; “Hath God cast away his people?”
1. The answer is, “God forbid.”
2. While it is true Israel fell as a nation, various individuals could be saved.
3. Romans 11:11,12 – I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
4. Again-While it is true the nation of Israel, because of disbelief, has fallen, individual Jews could be saved.
5. To prove that God had not totally rejected every Jew, he uses himself to prove individual Jews can be saved.
6. If all Jews were rejected, then Paul was rejected.
7. If Paul, as an individual Jew, could be saved, then all Jews could be saved individually.
2. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. 4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal.
A. Some times as human beings we do not see things as they actually are.
B. Elijah had enjoyed a great victory in chapter eighteen of first Kings.
C. However, in chapter nineteen, he is on the run and totally discouraged.
D. 1 Kings 19:14 – And he said, I have been very jealous for the LORD God of hosts: because the children of Israel have forsaken thy covenant, thrown down thine altars, and slain thy prophets with the sword; and I, even I only, am left; and they seek my life, to take it away.
E. Israel had gone so far in the days of Elijah it looked as if no one was left who loved God. However, he was wrong because he did not know what God knew.
F. So in like fashion, if God has rejected the nation of Israel in the days of Paul and the Jews felt that none would be left, God had those who would love and obey Him.
G. There were men like Paul, the other apostles, and a remnant of Jews who still loved God.
H. “God's promise of blessing to Israel was always founded upon the premise of their remaining faithful to God. The people God foreknew were those who would be faithful, the elect, the spiritual seed.”
5. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
A. Just as there was a number (7,000) in the days of Elijah who had not bowed their knee to Baal, there was a certain number of Jews who would obey the gospel when they were afforded the opportunity to do so.
B. “Only the unbelieving; hence, as a nation, God has rejected Israel for their disobedience to Christ. He cast them out, but left an open door behind them, and into it they had the liberty and duty to return.”
C. Romans 9:6 – Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel.
D. Romans 2:28,29 – For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
E. Galatians 6:16 – And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
F. Paul reminds them that it is not by perfectly keeping a law system by which men would be save.
G. Jews and Gentiles would be saved by grace.
H. Romans 10:4 – For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
I. Romans 10:9,10 – That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
J. Romans 5:8,9 – But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
K. Titus 2:11 – For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men.
The argument for a literal Law system falls apart when the proper context is given.
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This will be one of my last posts here. If God does not forgive sin, then we're all in a lot of trouble. Also, your post appears to indicate that God is NOT omniscient, because if He were, He knew before the creation of the world that man would sin, before he chose Abraham that he would be a sinner as were Isaac and Jacob, He knew before He sent His Son to the Jewish people that they would reject Him. Yet He STILL made an everlasting covenant with them.
Your post assumes and makes no sense. Read the scripture and tell me what it means. I have refuted at least 12 assumptions made in the OT. How many does it take? I have covered this through scripture (Romans 11) and no one seems to want to deal with NT scripture. What say we cover Ephesians and put this to rest? You are missing an absolute Biblical point that God held up His end of the bargain as was PROMISED from the very beginning. Let's see what Paul (a Hebrew of Hebrews) says about it in Ephesians, how about that?
I totally understand and see where you're going with this and fully agree on your interpretation. God knew from the foundation of the world and yet it is part of His divine plan. His Word is very clear to me albiet maybe cloudy to others...we must continue to pray for clarity on this issue. Israel and it's people are under attack, it is OBVIOUS....the enemy wants anti semitism to be alive and well to thouroughly destroy God's people...IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN! God will have His way...
Karen...you are much needed on this forum. These conflicts drive us deeper in longing to know truth. I see your struggle with the words that do not line up to what you know is the truth. I too struggle with these issues, that is the reason for my silence this last week. I have been so grieved by the words that I have grown to know and love become twisted into something almost unrecognizeable...It truly has led me to seek God's face all the more.
We must trust God that he will lead us into the truth, I trust that he has given us a gifted teacher in you and pray that you will reconsider your thought on leaving.
You are loved....
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So, you're saying that God didn't realize that the Jews would reject Messiah and break the covenant? (You're "better" than I am. I still need 66 books to the Bible to determine God's word and His will. You've narrowed it down to 3. Why do we still have the other one?)
66 books yes..but you won't find the answers back in the OT. The apostle Paul answers all the questions if we would read it. That is all I'm saying. It's in there and it is clear as day.
I have only used scriptures that have been brought into the discussion by others.
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You didn't answer the first question. And if the OT is no longer valid, why is is still quoted in the New Testament? (And I've also read the books that you promote. They were written to and about the church.)
Do you still live under the law? Are you still looking for the Christ? The OT is quoted most of the time to show the difference between what was and now is. If they were written to and about the church would it not behoove us to know and understand the things written? Especially since the biggest majority of it was written by a Jew...why would we bury our heads in the sand and not see the evidence that he gives concerning the bringing of peoples together?
You see, you STILL haven't answered the question, so I'm going to put it here all by itself. Did God not know from the foundation of the world that Jesus would be betrayed by the Jews?
Then how did He not know that the Jews would reject Christ? He knew it far enough in advance that He could have changed it to a different people. But then, if Jesus went to a people who accepted Him, then Christ would not have died on the cross for the forgiveness of sins...just saying.
John 10:17-18
17 “The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. 18 No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”
17 “The Father loves me because I sacrifice my life so I may take it back again. 18 No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded.”
God from Day 1 created man to be a free moral agent. Man has always had the freedom of choice. The Jewish nation had opportunity to SEE the Christ, Witness His miracles, they had prophets that foretold of His coming...even with all of this, they were free moral agents to accept or reject Him. Does God know today that there will be people who will reject Him? Of course.
Here is my point. Could there be a greater slap in the face to the Almighty God in Heaven than to have favored information concerning His great reward and reject it? To rebuild a Jewish system is to say that God in Christ failed. His plan from Genesis 3:15 fell flat on it's face and God needs a do over. God's Son was born to die...the only person ever born for the sole purpose of dying. God laid His plan before the foundation of the world because He knew there would be those who would reject Him but also those who would accept and love Him. God was patient and longsuffering from Genesis 3:15 to the brutal execution of His own Son, all in order that we 'all" might be brought under one roof together as His children. For what purpose is a new temple when God says that "we" are now His temple? What good is a stone tablet when God says "I will write on their heart"? What good is a temple when Jesus says "my kingdom is NOT of this world"? Why would He need it if He is now "seated at the right hand of God"? The greatest mistake is to say that perhaps God would break a promise. What was it that God promised? He promised a "seed".....the seed was Jesus Christ and God delivered. Paul says there is nether Jew nor Gentile. Christ took away the wall of partition...He paid the price for all once and for all to join us together. My question is why must we tear asunder what God has gone through such great lengths to join together?
The ones that are trying to tear assunder are those that deny Israel as God's chosen people. Israel will be regrafted into Christ after the fullness of the Gentiles comes in, but that does not take away from Israel, it confirms the promise and God's grace to us all. If anything, we should be grateful to God and to Israel because of the hardness of their hearts an avenue of salvation for all was made possible. God's ways are not our ways, His ways are just and our ways...well mostly just plain selfish.
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Israel was never "grafted out". Where are you getting this information? Show me scripture to prove your point.
Romans 11:11,12 – I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?
If Romans 11 is what you are claiming to support your premise you are missing the point of the scripture itself.
Paul said: To prove that God had not totally rejected every Jew, he uses himself to prove individual Jews can be saved. If all Jews were rejected, then Paul was rejected. If Paul, as an individual Jew, could be saved, then all Jews could be saved individually.
You see the Apostle Paul said nothing of the Jews being "grafted out". Every Jew..just like the Hebrew of Hebrews could be saved in the same manner as Paul.
You quoted Luke so let me grab a part of that which has been answered.
Proposition 10. The return of the ancient city of Jerusalem to the custody of the Jews proves that the prophecy of Luke 21:24, namely, “Jerusalem will be trodden down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled,” has now gone into fulfilment, for Jerusalem is no longer being trodden down by them.
Answer 10: Here we are told that the consensus is that “the times of the Gentiles” will not be concluded until the second coming of Christ. The meaning, then, is simply this, that Jerusalem and those whom it represents will he trampled underfoot during the entire lengthy span of time that extends to the moment of Christ’s return. The treading down by the Gentiles will not stop before the close of the present era. Moreover, there is no implication here, or anywhere else in Scripture, of any literal restoration of Jerusalem after the second coming.
To be sure, the passage speaks of a being trodden down until — But it just is not true that in every case in which until is used this little word introduces a condition which is the exact opposite of that which was described in the preceding part of the sentence. Merely on the basis of what is stated here in Luke 21:24 it is certainly not possible to conclude that earthly Jerusalem as we now conceive of it, or the people whom it represents, will be entering a condition of unclouded, radiant glory at Christ’s return. That little conjunction (until) must be interpreted, in each case, according to its specific context. Here in Luke 21:24 the meaning is simply this, that for Jerusalem the condition of being trampled underfoot will not cease a hundred years or fifty years or even ten years before Christ’s return, but will last on and on and on, until Christ’s second coming. Somewhat similar is the meaning of this little word in Rom. 11:25; I Cor. 11:26; 15:25; and Rev. 2:25. The fact that each passage must be studied in its own context is clear especially from this last mentioned text. Does “That which you have, hold fast until I come” actually mean that after Christ’s coming we shall no longer hold fast the precious spiritual treasures that have been imparted to us? Does it not rather indicate that, conic what may, we must keep clinging to God’s revelation in Jesus Christ and to its fruit in our own experience? Relinquish it? Never! Not today, nor tomorrow, nor the next day. We must hold it fast — by giving it away to the nations!
It is clear, therefore, that neither the word until nor anything else in this passage is or implies a prediction of national restoration in store for the Jews either just before or in connection with Christ’s return.
Let us suppose for a moment that another temple will be built in the state of Israel. Will it be a temple in which the Jews will gather in order to glory in the cross of Christ? Cf. Gal. 6:14. If not, then will not the restoration of such a temple constitute further evidence of the fact that the divine approval is not resting upon such worshippers? Was it not our Lord Jesus Christ who said, “I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father but by me” (John 14:6; cf. Matt. 1:21; Acts 4:12; Heb. 10:12, 14; Rev. 7:14)?
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