The ECA Disclosed

[CellWho]

I see it slightly differently - I view it as piggybacking on the ECA's legal information as to how to keep e-cigs within the current regulatory framework.

I don't see any harm in that.

First off, whether or not ECA can affect positive change is yet to be seen. Let's hope they can. One of my concerns is with SJ's stance on suppliers adherence to "ECA's legal information" and "current regulatory framework". Let's be clear here, the "legal information" is an interpretation and by no means is fact. I'm sure you could find a lawyer with a different interpretation of the law. Secondly, "current regulatory framework" doesn't exist. This again are a few suppliers getting together and creating a regulatory framework. So when a supplier pays you for the privileged to have their own sub forum you will insist they adhere to this "regulatory framework", it seems unfair. Not only does this framework not exist, but it will be changing to meet ECA's agenda as they move forward.

I know your heart is in the right place (and maybe your pocket book as well), but you are betting the farm on a horse that you haven't seen race yet. Heck, for all you know it may only have three legs. I thought this was supposed to be a public, open, unbiased, and fair forum.

SJ, I understand your desire to through whatever resources you have to help the cause, but forcing undocumented and unknown regulations on suppliers that pay you a monthly fee is ridiculous, don't you think?

I hope ECA has great success in the coming months and wish them all the best. I just don't want to see rules and regulations dictated to suppliers of this forum or coercion of its members by a few suppliers that have decided to band together. Let's try and keep this great forum separate from the ECA agenda no matter how noble the goals might be.

 

[Malicedoll]

So.. are you saying that a supplier can't be on the forums if they don't adhere to these new "rules and regulations?" i don't know.. maybe i am confused...

 

[Kate]

Community members who are interested in a member directed, not for profit, grass roots organisation rather than a top down authoritarian structure might be interested in Right to Vape.

I encourage the ECA to work with us rather than to presume authority over us.

Good luck, you seem to have taken on a lot of issues.

 

[Idahojo]

These are all very good points. But I think first and foremost we should be banding together to avoid get banned totally. We can iron out all the other wrinkles later.

SJ, I also think you should rewind a little until we see how this all plays out. This forum is for everybody, at least that's what I thought.

 

[Boston George]

if you're going to take peoples hard earned cash anduse it to lay waste to the startup suppliers who can't affordyour membership.. then shame on you..and i won't be a party to it.

Where are you getting this from?

They are trying to raise money for the sole purpose of lobbying congress to keep these things legal.

I don't see where all this paranoia is coming from. The ECA is not trying to shut out anyone, far from, they are trying to get EVERYONE to join.

You guys like to whine in the forum and bash the FDA these people are putting down their hard earned money to fight so that YOU can continue to use the e-cigarette you enjoy.

Frankly I think you are just ...... at the FDA and congress but because you cannot effect that, you are blasting the ECA. The one group that is trying to help you.

 

[Kate]

This is the intent of the ECA according to their mission statement - "... The ECA strives to educate the public on electronic smoking devices and tobacco harm reduction..."

This isn't about ethical trading or political lobbying.

I'm missing something ... why are they spending so much time, effort and money on education? Will they be providing proof of effectiveness of vaping as 'harm reduction'?

 

[Lika]

At this point I will say I'm on board to the extent of watching the early development of the ECA. I will back off and give the ECA time to organize and get the ball rolling. I will also look for ways that I can help and will make that offer when appropriate. I think ultimately we all have the same goal in mind. We've just got to figure out a way for us all to get on the same train.

 

[taukimada]

Where are you getting this from?

They are trying to raise money for the sole purpose of lobbying congress to keep these things legal.

I don't see where all this paranoia is coming from. The ECA is not trying to shut out anyone, far from, they are trying to get EVERYONE to join.

so far i have seen many statements to the effect of shunning any supplier who does not conform to THIER standard

You guys like to whine in the forum and bash the FDA these people are putting down their hard earned money to fight so that YOU can continue to use the e-cigarette you enjoy.

i'm not happy with trading one form of control for another.. especially one where the controlling party reaps the monetary profits..

and make no mistake... i EXPECT anybody selling a product to spend THIER money to stay in business.. but to ask for the consumer to donate to THIER profits is ludicris

Frankly I think you are just ...... at the FDA and congress but because you cannot effect that, you are blasting the ECA. The one group that is trying to help you.

you're damn skippy i'm ...... at the FDA..but at least i KNOW where they stand.. and i understand thier agenda, and i'm sorry... i see what the ECA have stated and i see self interest.. and i dont blame them. if i had my savings tied up in the ecig business i'd want to fight the fda too.. but i would never ask for my CUSTOMERS to pay for it in any way other than to simply raise my prices and see where the chips fall [/quote]

make no mistake... these suppliers are fighting for thier lives..and livelyhoods, and i commend them for it.. but them fighting does not give them the right to demand anything from anyone.. THEY took the risk of venturing into an unknown business.. not me.. im not sure why I need educating.. and i dont understand where they think because they are worried about THIER small business that ifi decide to sell i MUST conform to thier rule.. i didn't elect them MY spokesperson


and just in case you dont see the point of my argument against the RULES being imposed by a small group of suppliers onto ALL suppliers...

you really think Walmart makes DEMANDS on how K-Mart runs thier business?..and by the way.. in that scenario..at least Walmart has a bigger bit of pull

 

[CellWho]

The ECA is not fighting for me, they are fighting to keep their livelihood.

My issue is with SJ's stance on taking on part or all of the ECA mantra and applying those rules and regulation's to suppliers on this forum. I find it interesting that we have members from around the world and a forum creator from the UK, and he is focusing on US regulations.

It's my strong hope that SJ will support ECA and it's cause without applying their vested interests to all paying suppliers of this forum. Even if he only supports the health and safety angle, it can still create issues.

Where are you getting this from?

They are trying to raise money for the sole purpose of lobbying congress to keep these things legal.

I don't see where all this paranoia is coming from. The ECA is not trying to shut out anyone, far from, they are trying to get EVERYONE to join.

You guys like to whine in the forum and bash the FDA these people are putting down their hard earned money to fight so that YOU can continue to use the e-cigarette you enjoy.

Frankly I think you are just ...... at the FDA and congress but because you cannot effect that, you are blasting the ECA. The one group that is trying to help you.

 

[taukimada]

At this point I will say I'm on board to the extent of watching the early development of the ECA. I will back off and give the ECA time to organize and get the ball rolling. I will also look for ways that I can help and will make that offer when appropriate. I think ultimately we all have the same goal in mind. We've just got to figure out a way for us all to get on the same train.

Lika... i wholeheartedly agree... but sadly my stance demands that i try to make my viewpoint clear to the extent of making sure that the association deals in good faith.. because if all it's going to result in is negativity to anyone who disagrees with thier standards and denial of the fact that they DID all the things they are now against i just cannot condone it.

and just to make my point crystal clear... i WANT to believe this can be a good thing.. but it isnt going to happen if it's done by force... THIS is exactly the same scenario we face in dealing with the FDA.. only theseare people that DIRECTLY profit from thier regulations.

maybe they SHOULD post the minutes of the meeting.. of course i dont expect that... the reason i dont.. is i dont believe they actually exist.

i believe we have a group who half-cocked jumped into something with no trueidea of what they were doing..i would also advise ANY member interested in joining.. be you supplier or consumer to DEMAND before making ANY monetary contributions to see the official federally required paperwork on the associations NON-PROFIT status and it's federally required mission statement

 

[nycsublimegirl]

hmmmm

what to say what to say....

ok.. first off... i like the idea of an association... i like the idea of conformity of standards... i like the idea of safety.. and i like the idea of my ecigs remaining on the market...

but i must say... i LOATHE the idea that this smacks of fascist forced conformity.. to the extent that it eliminates all of the good coming from it..

this sounds like nazi germany.. a "join us or die" mentality.. there are obviously going to be suppliers who disagree with the associations point of view... maybe some that simply cannot afford monetarily toconform to the associations standards YET.. and worst of all.. for any new suppliers stuck not being ABLE to conform to this standard yet.. it reaks of hypocrisy..

since when do the suppliers who got us into this mess in the first place by NOT living up to these lofty standards suddenly become the judge, jury and executioners of suppliers who are currently in the same boat ALL of you were in mere months ago..nay.. WEEKS ago.

dont ever get me wrong... again i LOVE the IDEA of this.. but the spirit seems lacking.. if you're going to take peoples hard earned cash anduse it to lay waste to the startup suppliers who can't affordyour membership.. then shame on you..and i won't be a party to it.

SJ.. you know i love you man.. but i'm not liking what i'm hearing on your end either. firstly.. you just said that ecf would mainly follow US guidlines... first off.. this is highly unfair to EU members and suppliers who are legally bound to THIER nation's rules and regulations. also... and it HIGHLY pains me to make this point... i seem to recall a certain HIGHLY regarded member of this forum being banned and the usage of UK law as the excuse.. which you're current stance shows as nothing more than an excuse.. not a fact.. and again.. the "join or die" menatlity also strikes us in the framework of same beloved sister being bannedfor reasons of trying to do harm to a suppliers business.. yet.. now we decide that if one doesn't join the "ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE" association, one cannot be a supplier member of a forum that lists suppliers as such to enjoin them from SELLING in general thread topics. does this mean that unassociated suppliers are not allowed to use the forum except for reading purposes? that seems highly infair to both those suppliers and to the members who honestly... just dont care about the difference.

i personally first joined this forum because i saw in it a community of openness.. a community that allowed freedom to learn, teach, and just to have a bit of "poo and giggles" (note.. self censorship for me shows troubled) i'm seeing a change for the worse. i know i seem to have more problem with the stance of YOU SJ.. but it's because the forum is where my heart is, and the forum in it's spirit has ALWAYS been about the freedoms we've enjoyed on it.

anyways... PLEASE think about this.. the fascist mentality here right now as it sounds can be VERY dangerous ground to walk upon.. it could be what REALLY destroys our community and our love for our devices and liquids, and again.. i would have made a bad german in the 40's... because i refuse to goosestep to the tune of nazi fascism. i hope and (agnostically) PRAY that someone can give me the hope that i have that im wrong.. and this thing isnt about shunning the suppliers who do not conform at gunpoint.

much serious love for you all, and sadness in my heart for what i feel you may be becoming.

Keith (Taukimada)

There will be levels of membership $$$ wise ...which will make it affordable for almost any legitimate supplier

 

[nycsublimegirl]

Lika... i wholeheartedly agree... but sadly my stance demands that i try to make my viewpoint clear to the extent of making sure that the association deals in good faith.. because if all it's going to result in is negativity to anyone who disagrees with thier standards and denial of the fact that they DID all the things they are now against i just cannot condone it.

and just to make my point crystal clear... i WANT to believe this can be a good thing.. but it isnt going to happen if it's done by force... THIS is exactly the same scenario we face in dealing with the FDA.. only theseare people that DIRECTLY profit from thier regulations.

maybe they SHOULD post the minutes of the meeting.. of course i dont expect that... the reason i dont.. is i dont believe they actually exist.

i believe we have a group who half-cocked jumped into something with no trueidea of what they were doing..i would also advise ANY member interested in joining.. be you supplier or consumer to DEMAND before making ANY monetary contributions to see the official federally required paperwork on the associations NON-PROFIT status and it's federally required mission statement

we actually have lengthy minutes from every meeting....

Also totally ......we are NOT accepting ANY money until we have filled the non-profit and have completed the formation correctly and have set up a bank account within the entity.....

 

[nycsublimegirl]

This is the intent of the ECA according to their mission statement - "... The ECA strives to educate the public on electronic smoking devices and tobacco harm reduction..."

This isn't about ethical trading or political lobbying.

I'm missing something ... why are they spending so much time, effort and money on education? Will they be providing proof of effectiveness of vaping as 'harm reduction'?

A big part of this movement politically will be un-demonizing the "e-cig" to the general public as it at first glance is so closely associated with tobacco cigarettes....and we need to educate and make it clear in the media and government that these are NOT traditional cigarettes and they are not the patch or gum either! people need to know what they really are before they can make correct decisions


and as far as harm reduction we intend to collectively get the testing that everyone really wants to see....

 

[Kate]

Is it really legal for vested interests in the US to run not for profit movements?

What happened to the idea of traders getting together to promote ethical trading practices? You really seem to have taken a lot of causes and are trying to make them your own.

Will you be co-operating with Right to Vape?

 

[nycsublimegirl]

Community members who are interested in a member directed, not for profit, grass roots organisation rather than a top down authoritarian structure might be interested in Right to Vape.

I encourage the ECA to work with us rather than to presume authority over us.

Good luck, you seem to have taken on a lot of issues.

Not sure where you are getting that vibe....we of course would want to work with you!

 

[Lika]

Is it really legal for vested interests in the US to run not for profit movements?

What happened to the idea of traders getting together to promote ethical trading practices? You really seem to have taken a lot of causes and are trying to make them your own.

Will you be co-operating with Right to Vape?

I think the question might be better asked as "Will RTV be co-operating with ECA?"

Just sayin'....

 

[Kate]

I've been trying to get traders to co-operate with RtV for a while now Lika and not one has responded to a simple question - http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...8400-association-manufacturers-suppliers.html

They are a group of vested interests but think they are a campaign group - this thread is on the campaign forum.

Not once did they consult the community about what they should be doing and now they have taken on anything and everything ... at least as far as the US is concerned ... we are supposed to sign up and do what we're told?

 

[nycsublimegirl]

I'm also an adult without kids in the house; with arthritis in my hands.

My prescriptions come to me in child proof bottles but I was able to request an "easy off" top mailed along with them.

I like the "pill bottles" that one of the juice suppliers put in my order so I can decide whether to use those or not as I see fit.

I guess my question is...is an "easy open" option possible without raising the cost of the packaging for you guys?

Hi I am sure knowing your situation we can help you work with a supplier of your choosing to make sure they can accomidate this for you without any extra cost. Please contact me directly once those bottles go into effect so I can help you in any way.

 

[riddle80]

I think this has the potential to be a great thing and I applaud all the suppliers behind it. They're trying to do what's been needing to be done for quite some time now, and I believe their intentions are honorable.

I do think that this should be (at least partially) a voluntary effort on behalf of the suppliers/manufacturers that wish to take part as opposed to forcing regulation on the industry. At RTV we had discussed a seal for companies that met certain criteria. Perhaps you could create a clear set of objectives that companies could adhere to, and if they do they will be able to use the seal (correct marketing terms, correct labeling and packaging, prevention of underage purchases, etc.). You could make the list visible on you're website as well. Ultimately, it would be up to the consumers to purchase from the companies listed.

Marketing claims are one exception that I believe everyone should adhere to. There's no excuse to be using health/quit smoking claims at this point in the game, and it's too easy of a fix not to. I think at the least SJ should not give supplier forums to those who make these claims as they're hurting the industry and helping to promote them is only making it worse.

I wonder if Ruyan, Smoking Everywhere, Njoy, and the Chinese manufacturers will also get on board. Has the organization contacted them?

 

[nycsublimegirl]

Can an officer of the ECA start a thread titled "Suggestions for ECA" where we can contribute any ideas or streamlining that may or may not have been addressed during the meeting.

For instance: Membership
(Please forgive me if I use incorrect terms)

Relative to suppliers there could be a Founding/Charter membership of X amount. A fixed locked in amount, available and open for participation until a certain cut-off date. Then, there could be a regular membership for established suppliers who just decided to get in on the ECA late. And, a new business membership, which would be significantly lower than regular memberships with a step-up rate increase per annum, and a 5 year long term pay-back initiating in the 3rd year.

Relative to non-suppliers there could be Regular Memberships, with whatever rights ECA is giving, Associate Memberships with lesser rights (specifically no voting rights), and Senior Discount memberships of both types.

I suggested the differing Supplier memberships because of concerns that I read. I suggested the various non-supplier memberships relative to all of our various economic concerns.

Lastly, at the present time, those of us that signed-up, to my understanding only signed-up for a newsletter. Before fully joining, I would need to see in print that non-supplier members are insulated and indemnified from any lawsuits. If we signed-up for anything more, then would one of the ECA officers/members please message me so that I can remove myself. The non-suppliers must be insulated and indemnified from lawsuits and that must be in print.

to clarify....you have just signed up for a news letter....

The first news letter will most likely be one inviting you to membership....with all the concerns addressed and full content on The ECA is up on the site....