The Elephant in the Room

[Plastic Shaman]

So, I see a lot of vapers pointing out the flaws in the reasoning and misperceptions of those opposed to e-cigarettes. However, I really don’t see people talking about the issue that a lot of critics bring up; minors and vaping. I spend a lot of time in shops and checking places out. I have seen many people under 18 vaping and trying to buy e-cigs. Most of the shops in my area are fairly ethical and won’t sell to minors without ID. Even so, I have seen parents who are willing to make these purchases.

I think that the opponents of vaping may have some legitimate points in this matter. My evidence is anecdotal, but I’m willing to wager that there will be studies that show that a number of children are starting to vape. Now, I don’t believe that these products are marketed towards children. Also, I don’t believe that e-cigs are the root of the issue. The fact is that none of us started smoking by accident. We all started smoking for our own reasons, no matter how misguided (I thought that it would make me look cool). The coming generations will continue to do these things for their own reasons, regardless of the existence of e-cigs.

Still, there is going to be a growing population of children vaping. Perhaps the percent of young people who will start using tobacco products will be greater with the advent of vaping. Additionally, there is growing population of adults who have started vaping who never smoked, so I don’t doubt that there is a certain allure to vaping. I’m just curious how other people feel about this. Any comments, thoughts, or death threats are greatly appreciated (I’m kidding about the death threats).

 

[Auntie Mame]

I am not opposed to a law that forbids sale of vapor to minors and would not be upset if it were strictly enforced. There are many things that I did as a kid that I should not have done. My kids did things they should not have done. I'll bet my grands have done things they should not have done (but no one rats them out to grams) and I'll also bet my great grands will one day, while under the age of 18, will do things they should not do. Kids, after all, will be kids and nothing is more appealing than the forbidden fruit.

We don't ban alcohol advertising, yet we the world health organization says it's the biggest cause of death in the world. We don't make it illegal for children to learn to fire guns, yet we know some kids use them for very bad reasons. They get drugs. Spray paint. Smoke cigarettes. Smoke other illegal substances. Engage in bad and often dangerous behavior. Unless we want to lock them in their rooms until they are 18 and allow no contact with the outside world, kids will be kids.

Non-smokers that vape? Ok. Do you think they wouldn't find some other habit? Should we start acting like NY and ban large sodas? Part of growing up is making mistakes and learning from them. Part of being free is being able to make your own choices and be free to reap the benefits or suffer the consequences.

Bottom line to me is yes, we should have laws to reasonable keep children away from things that are "adult" in nature or deadly. Adults who choose to break those laws should face the music for it, just like a speeder gets a ticket or a robber goes to jail. Other than that, let's let parents parent, police police, teachers teach and leaders lead.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Well, there have been a lot of laws made about where it's appropriate to advertise alcohol and cigarettes. I know that alcohol is a leading cause of death and that a lot of the flavors appeal to children, like vaping. However, I will argue that alcohol usage can be distinguished from tobacco usage, primarily because society doesn't disapprove of alcohol. Society disapproves of alcohol overuse and addiction, but it hasn't been something that people think we would be better off without since the days of prohibition.

Obviously laws are needed, but these laws won't stymie that growth of tobacco usage that will probably been seen as a result of the emergence of e-cigs. If tobacco usage grows at a faster rate following e-cigs, I think that it will be seen as a major point against it and a major reason to strongly regulate it. As a utilitarian, I don't really care as long it reduces overall costs to society, but this doesn't change the fact that it will probably be seen as something that increases the usage of a product that people would like to see extinguished.

 

[pamdis]

I personally don't have a problem with minors vaping. Especially since surveys show that the vast majority of them were already smokers. Good for them, following the adults example of finding a better option. For the tiny percentage of them that have never smoked, good for them too, hope the vaping stops you from ever picking up a cigarette.

 

[Auntie Mame]

In some ways I think we're talking apples and oranges.

I think society disapproved of the burning of tobacco that has been treated with thousands of added chemicals and produces offensive and harmful smoke. IMHO, vaping nicotine is akin to drinking responsibly. It may not be the absolute ideal but it appears to be far less harmful than the use of tobacco and does not appear to harm others.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Whoa, pamdis. That's a bold position. Not saying you're wrong or that I disagree with you.

Do you disagree that there may be a lot of children that will start vaping that would have never considered touching a cigarette? I've met a number of adults who were disgusted by smoking but are totally into vaping. I would assume that the same would apply to children, perhaps even more so.

 

[six]

Who exactly is "underage" these days? You can join the military at 17... but your parents can claim you as dependent and keep you on their health insurance until you are 26. .... I started using tobacco at about age 11 or 12. I continued using tobacco until I was in my 40s... One of my close friends growing up has been gone now for six years from lung cancer. Another fellow I knew growing up died of a heart attack that same year and his family said the heart disease was tobacco related.

While I appreciate the idea that youngsters exposure to just about any habit should be a concern, I tend to reject any "save the children" - "think of the children!" arguments regarding pretty much everything when I'm told I'm somehow failing to save or think of children.

Do I have any intentions of providing any youngsters vape gear and nic juice? Nope. Will I ever tell some kid he shouldn't vape if I see such a thing? Nope. It's none of my business. Will I jump on anyone's bandwagon that's hoping to exert some control over other people with a "save the children" or "think of the children" tactic? LOL. Not a chance...and in fact: Count on me to ridicule anyone like that I ever come across.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Who exactly is "underage" these days? You can join the military at 17... but your parents can claim you as dependent and keep you on their health insurance until you are 26. .... I started using tobacco at about age 11 or 12. I continued using tobacco until I was in my 40s... One of my close friends growing up has been gone now for six years from lung cancer. Another fellow I knew growing up died of a heart attack that same year and his family said the heart disease was tobacco related.

While I appreciate the idea that youngsters exposure to just about any habit should be a concern, I tend to reject any "save the children" - "think of the children!" arguments regarding pretty much everything when I'm told I'm somehow failing to save or think of children.

Do I have any intentions of providing any youngsters vape gear and nic juice? Nope. Will I ever tell some kid he shouldn't vape if I see such a thing? Nope. It's none of my business. Will I jump on anyone's bandwagon that's hoping to exert some control over other people with a "save the children" or "think of the children" tactic? LOL. Not a chance...and in fact: Count on me to ridicule anyone like that I ever come across.

Well, I would assume that a minor, in this sense, is someone under 18. As with most ages, such as the age to join the military, age of consent, age to drive/drink/run for president, the number is largely arbitrary. I don't think that the concern is that young people are doing it because they are young. I think that the concern is that it's an addictive habit that people struggle with throughout their life and people don't want to see the number growing, especially in the younger generation. Since most people start smoking when they are young, I believe people focus on the age. The real issue, imo, is that people don't want to see the population of tobacco users growing.

 

[stevegmu]

Sadly, I think most on here think it is ok for children to vape...

 

[pamdis]

Whoa, pamdis. That's a bold position. Not saying you're wrong or that I disagree with you.

Do you disagree that there may be a lot of children that will start vaping that would have never considered touching a cigarette? I've met a number of adults who were disgusted by smoking but are totally into vaping. I would assume that the same would apply to children, perhaps even more so.

Hard to agree or disagree with a 'may be' hypothetical. There may be, or there may not be. Also, I think 'a lot' needs to be better defined. I'm more concerned about the ones who already smoke, or who will smoke. I think we are throwing them under the bus under the guise of protecting those unnumbered ones who 'would never smoke' but 'may vape'.

I also think the 'outlaw sales to minors' argument was taken up by a lot of vaping advocates, thinking that if we give them this they will leave us alone with all the rest, and that hasn't worked out too well. We threw smoking minors under the bus to save ourselves.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Sadly, I think most on here think it is ok for children to vape...

You might be right. Personally, I think that this is a terrible position because it makes this community look bad. More importantly, I think that it's an issue since we don't really know the long term effects and it would be really bad if a huge population of people started vaping and we find out, 10 or 15 years down the road, that there are serious health complications. For most of us, it's probably worth the trade off, but it would be bad if everyone started doing it.

 

[ProjektMayhem]

I don't think children should be vaping. I do think there should be laws that make it so people under 18 can't purchase e-cigarettes. I know it's hard to enforce especially online but they have ways to do it. And I'm not talking about the stupid thing where it just asks you if you're 18 or not. I did notice that just the other day the B&M that I frequent put a sign up in the window that says they're carding people now when they buy stuff from there. I didn't get carded when I bought stuff but they know me. I'm curious to know if they really are doing or if they just put that there and hope kids don't come in and try. Anyways, I think parents need to tell their kids vaping isn't for people under 18 instead of buying for them.

 

[Auntie Mame]

Sadly, I think most on here think it is ok for children to vape...

No, I think most here believe in a perfect world all children should grow up and grow old inhaling nothing but clean air. But, if one of my grands become smokers I'd be first in line urging them to consider quitting any way they can including vaping.

 

[pamdis]

Sadly, I think most on here think it is ok for children to vape...

I think you are wrong. I take a lot of flak for my position, so I would say most on here disagree with me. Despite my position on minor sales laws, I don't think its OK for children to vape. My children are adults now, but if they were young I would not approve of them vaping. Unless they were already smoking. Then I would be the first parent in line at a vape shop.

I also think the definition of 'children' needs to be better defined. If my 10 year old wanted to vape, would I let her? No. I wouldn't let her drink coffee either, and I don't need a law making it illegal for me to make that decision. If my 15 year old child was smoking, then yes, it would be OK for my child to vape. In fact, it would be OK if my 15 year old non-smoking child were to vape, because it may prevent her from smoking.

 

[Plastic Shaman]

I think you are wrong. I take a lot of flak for my position, so I would say most on here disagree with me. Despite my position on minor sales laws, I don't think its OK for children to vape. My children are adults now, but if they were young I would not approve of them vaping. Unless they were already smoking. Then I would be the first parent in line at a vape shop.

I also think the definition of 'children' needs to be better defined. If my 10 year old wanted to vape, would I let her? No. I wouldn't let her drink coffee either, and I don't need a law making it illegal for me to make that decision. If my 15 year old child was smoking, then yes, it would be OK for my child to vape. In fact, it would be OK if my 15 year old non-smoking child were to vape, because it may prevent her from smoking.

I'm sorry, but I see your position as inconsistent. You say that there shouldn't be a law, but you wouldn't let your 10 year old vape. If there is no law, then any child will have access to them. Also, I'm not sure that a lot of people see laws banning minors from purchasing e-cigs as a bargaining chip, but more as a matter of principle.

 

[Ryedan]

Sadly, I think most on here think it is ok for children to vape...

93% of people responding to this poll, Should there be an Age Limit to Buy e-Liquids that contain Nicotine? feel there should be.

OK for underaged people to vape is more lenient I believe, but most think it should be up to parents to have control of this for their kids. I agree.

 

[pamdis]

You might be right. Personally, I think that this is a terrible position because it makes this community look bad. More importantly, I think that it's an issue since we don't really know the long term effects and it would be really bad if a huge population of people started vaping and we find out, 10 or 15 years down the road, that there are serious health complications. For most of us, it's probably worth the trade off, but it would be bad if everyone started doing it.

This is exactly why I oppose the position. This is a reason to withhold the best quit smoking invention from minor smokers? Are any of these in your list a reason to tell a 16 year old - just keep smoking for two more years? No, wait - they should just quit. How well did that advice work for any of use for 20, 30, or more years?

 

[Plastic Shaman]

This is exactly why I oppose the position. This is a reason to withhold the best quit smoking invention from minor smokers? Are any of these in your list a reason to tell a 16 year old - just keep smoking for two more years? No, wait - they should just quit. How well did that advice work for any of use for 20, 30, or more years?

So, if there were serious long term complications and 15 percent of the population started to vape now, only to find out 10 years from now that it's a big problem, you would approve because the small group of teenagers that would benefit from their ability to legally buy e-cigs?

 

[pamdis]

I'm sorry, but I see your position as inconsistent. You say that there shouldn't be a law, but you wouldn't let your 10 year old vape. If there is no law, then any child will have access to them. Also, I'm not sure that a lot of people see laws banning minors from purchasing e-cigs as a bargaining chip, but more as a matter of principle.

I don't think it's inconsistent. I just don't think a law is needed.

Is there a law prohibiting my 10 year old from drinking coffee? Prohibiting my 5 year old from having a paintball gun? There are a lot of things that I can decide are bad for my children that I don't need a law telling me to stop them from doing it.

On the other hand, do the current laws stop minors from smoking, drinking, drugs, tattoos? At some point, a child becomes old enough that neither parents nor laws are going to stop them. Hopefully, by this time, parenting has done it's job to help them make good decisions. But despite our best efforts, they make bad ones anyway. How is a law going to make any difference?

 

[HauntedMyst]

I think we've been going about this all wrong. The bigger picture is the opportunity is to get kids addicted to vaping by getting a ton of cool celebrities to endorse the bad boy or flashy sophisticated woman image of vaping. We start the tweeners out with cool sounding zero nic liquids. We make it a closed system and then get the government to only allow closed systems so that very few people can compete with us while giving the quid pro quo restoration to a reliable tax stream to those who voted for our closed system idea. Slowly, over time we add more and more addictive chemicals to the liquid until they are hooked and we can charge more, make more money. It's a win win for everyone.......oh wait.....