The Elephant in the Room

[rbrylawski]

Possession; yes it was in junior's hands, I made him wear gloves though. After it was cured we soaked it and made a spray, then he sprayed it; possessing the tobacco product and using it. That is literally an apple analogy of a minor possessing and using a tobacco product and common sense tells you this is not a crime.

Now you need to pay some legislators or council to clarify this and sort it out for us. w00t for Economic Stimulus from the Central Planners. Why is it not better to just govern yourself? As much as I hate, and I mean HATE to see a minor smoke; the fact of the matter is none of my rights are infringed if a minor smokes a cigarette.

Perhaps a valid argument can be made that the minor upsets my pocket book IFF somehow that child is subsidized through tax revenue, then the discussion would have to focus on privileges, not rights.

I don't think junior smoking a cigarette being illegal has ANYTHING to do with your rights being violated in any way. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that smoking tobacco is VERY detrimental to juniors health, and if junior continues to smoke well into his golden years (if he's lucky enough to even make it that far), he may get very sick and the general population may be taxed even more to cover his potentially life threatening diseases.

Maybe, just maybe, anti-smoking laws are for our benefit? But then what do I know?

 

[rbrylawski]

LOL quarters in, pull the handle outward? I remember that {MODERATED}.

I'm sure many many of us remember that. I felt so empowered when I put those quarters in, and pulled that handle. Too bad that little voice in my head, which knew it was a bad thing I was doing, didn't speak louder.

 

[towelie]

I don't think junior smoking a cigarette being illegal has ANYTHING to do with your rights being violated in any way. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that smoking tobacco is VERY detrimental to juniors health, and if junior continues to smoke well into his golden years (if he's lucky enough to even make it that far), he may get very sick and the general population may be taxed even more to cover his potentially life threatening diseases.

Maybe, just maybe, anti-smoking laws are for our benefit? But then what do I know?

Sure, cigarette taxes are for our benefit as well right? imo education > taxes + statutes. I don't think we could be taxed more honestly. If taxes directly paid for services I doubt our paychecks would buy a pack of smokes, literally.
When I was 16 I used to go to the diner, get quarters at the register, buy Camel's out the machine, sit and smoke while waiting on breakfast, eat, then go to school all day then work all night.

I also remember candy cigarettes.

 

[Jman8]

I don't think junior smoking a cigarette being illegal has ANYTHING to do with your rights being violated in any way. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that smoking tobacco is VERY detrimental to juniors health, and if junior continues to smoke well into his golden years (if he's lucky enough to even make it that far), he may get very sick and the general population may be taxed even more to cover his potentially life threatening diseases.

Maybe, just maybe, anti-smoking laws are for our benefit? But then what do I know?

"the fact that smoking is very detrimental to juniors health" is still VERY debatable. Some of these junior smokers go onto be centenarians who smoke for 80 years, some who don't quite make it to 40. Overwhelming majority make it easily out of adolescence, and so this 'very detrimental' seems very hyped up to make a point that is observably not true. Or is akin to saying don't start taking on jobs/chores during your teen years, cause you could become a workaholic, and lots of workaholics experience many problems, up to and including early death.

Overwhelming majority of people reading this sentence were smokers of the abusive variety. How many of us are facing life threatening diseases? One would think from what you've written, it is nearly all of us. And how many of us started smoking under the age of 18? I would venture to guess 85% or more. So, pardon me if your 'very detrimental' appears to fall short of that assessment when it is entirely plausible in today's world, with vaping, that all persons currently under 18, stand far less of a chance of being habitual abusive smoker for the long term. But still stands a chance because some adults (er, the overwhelming majority) are okay with idea that to become a vaper, you really ought to be an ex-smoker, and they fully realize, from own experience, that chances are very good that one becomes a smoker under the age of 18. But can't let those smokers get into vaping, because that's the law. So, this wonderful catch-22 that we've set up has it so the one thing that would likely prevent ill effects from smoking is forbidden, even while we all kinda sorta know they'll be able to obtain it, if they really want it, just as we all obtained it, because we really wanted it. But heaven forbid you get into vaping first. Instead, we'll just bury our head in the collective sand and pretend that this will be the generation that magically has 100 percent of their segment of the population that follows the draconian laws and never ever gets into tobacco products.

Maybe, just maybe, ANTZ rhetoric and junk science, has managed to brainwash the general population? But then, what do I know?

 

[Jman8]

I'm sure many many of us remember that. I felt so empowered when I put those quarters in, and pulled that handle. Too bad that little voice in my head, which knew it was a bad thing I was doing, didn't speak louder.

I honestly have compassion for this expression you keep conveying that deems what you chose was a bad thing. It appears like you are still holding guilt over yourself on a choice that has lead to where you are today. I recall first time I went cold turkey having similar feelings though working through this with power that is forgiveness. I hope someday this finds you in this lifetime, and trust you will see it when desire, if you haven't already.

With that said, I don't think the voice within would see it as 'bad thing' and instead honors free will, realizing you can't really lose your way on the path you have chosen for yourself. Likewise, the voice within likely didn't just shut up after your first pull on that handle, and was there, but for the asking if you truly felt this was a 'bad thing.' I propose that it was instead seen as a good thing, or desired thing, and that there were pros to that experience for you, otherwise it is entirely likely you would have chosen otherwise.

I could speak on this tangent for another 20 paragraphs, but really just looking to make point that smoking is not inherently bad, and smoker's guilt is not a product of the voice within, but instead a mind that wrestles with an outside-in perspective. Propped up by ANTZ rhetoric.

 

[rbrylawski]

I honestly have compassion for this expression you keep conveying that deems what you chose was a bad thing. It appears like you are still holding guilt over yourself on a choice that has lead to where you are today. I recall first time I went cold turkey having similar feelings though working through this with power that is forgiveness. I hope someday this finds you in this lifetime, and trust you will see it when desire, if you haven't already.

With that said, I don't think the voice within would see it as 'bad thing' and instead honors free will, realizing you can't really lose your way on the path you have chosen for yourself. Likewise, the voice within likely didn't just shut up after your first pull on that handle, and was there, but for the asking if you truly felt this was a 'bad thing.' I propose that it was instead seen as a good thing, or desired thing, and that there were pros to that experience for you, otherwise it is entirely likely you would have chosen otherwise.

I could speak on this tangent for another 20 paragraphs, but really just looking to make point that smoking is not inherently bad, and smoker's guilt is not a product of the voice within, but instead a mind that wrestles with an outside-in perspective. Propped up by ANTZ rhetoric.

I yes, I felt tremendous guilt every time I lit a smoke. Tremendous! I'm an intelligent man and I knew smoking was bad for me. But cigarettes had a strong hold on me.

This is true. Not one person in my family nor any of my friends or coworkers knew I was a smoker. I was VERY skilled at masking the "after aroma." Yes, very skilled indeed.


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[DC2]

I don't think junior smoking a cigarette being illegal has ANYTHING to do with your rights being violated in any way. It has EVERYTHING to do with the fact that smoking tobacco is VERY detrimental to juniors health, and if junior continues to smoke well into his golden years (if he's lucky enough to even make it that far), he may get very sick and the general population may be taxed even more to cover his potentially life threatening diseases.

Maybe, just maybe, anti-smoking laws are for our benefit? But then what do I know?

Your entire premise is based on the idea that smokers cost the health care system more than non-smokers.

 

[sharpie24l]

As a young person (24 now), that had my first CIG at 11, I grew up around it. My mother smoked my grand parents smoked, my dad smoked. They also all drank (some more heavily than others). When I finally got caught smoking at 15, there was no "Oh that's terrible for you stop now!" It was more of a "well go figure I guessed you would have started sooner".

I know it makes family and parents sound bad. They really weren't its just how they grew up as well they didn't see it as a huge issue.

At 15 I called my dad from a friends house party one night I had taken my brothers car to it (no license I was sober for the drive as well and my brother knew I had his car) I was drunk and couldn't drive home. He just got my uncle to take him so they could get me and the car home. I was congratulated for " being responsible".

I say that to draw a comparison of course its bad, its illegal, kids will either find a way to do it or try as hard as they can. I had no influence telling me that I was to young for this stuff and I shouldn't do it. It led me down a dark pretty messed up path. Around the time I hit 20 or so it had started to take a toll on me. And I had to make my mind up for myself.

All of this to say that the law should be strictly enforced no one under 18, same as cigarettes wherever you live. Just like alcohol age limit strictly enforced at all times. (Except the military when it comes to alcohol if you can fight you should be able to drink) but as vapors also need to be there. Just ask parents that smoke need to put their foot down so do vapors. Start telling kids no don't do this stuff its bad for and its stupid.

Sorry for the book just my 25cents.

 

[Skunkworkx]

Kids and vaping....oh, the flavors "appeal" to the young ones ?
I think the bigger issue would be drugs....but wait, we can't really enforce that now can we ? It's easier to go after the "honest" guy.

IF a kid wants beer, he will find a way to get it, as well as cigarettes, drugs, into the rated R movie, whatever....making it "taboo" is a problem also.

IMHO

 

[rbrylawski]

Your entire premise is based on the idea that smokers cost the health care system more than non-smokers.

Do you know that that's not the case? I don't honestly know. So, my trusty fingers googled it. And it turns out the health care costs for smokers in the short term are in fact higher than for non-smokers. BUT and this is a big but, people who don't smoke ultimately live longer, so ultimately, non-smokers healthcare costs become more as people live longer.

I've attached the link. Now, I don't know about anyone else here, but the reality is smokers as a whole die at younger ages. I'd rather not be one of them.

The health care costs of smoking. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Do you know that that's not the case? I don't honestly know. So, my trusty fingers googled it. And it turns out the health care costs for smokers in the short term are in fact higher than for non-smokers. BUT and this is a big but, people who don't smoke ultimately live longer, so ultimately, non-smokers healthcare costs become more as people live longer.

I've attached the link. Now, I don't know about anyone else here, but the reality is smokers as a whole die at younger ages. I'd rather not be one of them.

The health care costs of smoking. - PubMed - NCBI

Maybe we should encourage everyone to smoke then.

 

[DrMA]

Maybe we should encourage everyone to smoke then.

Why would you do ANTZ a favor? All that tobacco tax money=ANTZ income.

 

[BigEgo]

The cig taxes are what have screwed us. In the past we *might* have been able to trust Congress to do the right thing since they weren't making money off cigs. But ever since they passed that tax (what 15 years ago or so) they are making billions off cigarette sales. They don't even need to be paid by BT lobbyists anymore.

I believe the government gets over $3 on average for every pack sold, which equals about 66% of the total price of a pack. Since 1998, governments at all levels have collected more than $528.5 BILLION in cigarette taxes (according to RJR's website).

I am sorry but one cannot trust the government to do the right thing when that much money is on the line. You just can't. The FDA has its own ANTZ agenda and the BT companies have their own agenda. Basically it's vaping vs. the world.

 

[Jman8]

Now, I don't know about anyone else here, but the reality is smokers as a whole die at younger ages. I'd rather not be one of them.

I'm fairly confident by the way that smoking deaths are calculated that if you were to die tomorrow, you'd die as a 'smoker.' It's either 5 or 10 years cessation that would make one a non-smoker, but even then, I could see ANTZ types saying, "well of course he died at this age, he does have a history of smoking after all."

As noted in previous post, I don't think it is as likely as it was say 20 years ago for people to be abusive smokers which most (or perhaps all) of these stats are based on. There is data of centenarians who smoke til they are 102 years old, maybe older. But also from what I've read, they aren't doing a PAD but more like 2 to 4 a day, maybe less. I would then conclude that moderate smoking is unlikely to be met with harsh disease/early death. And would argue that with vaping in the picture, smokers are likely to cease smoking or cut down so far that it wouldn't automatically be a situation where smoking is detrimental to one's health, regardless of age they start at (assuming 12 years old and up).

I do find links like the one you provided questionable. I type in search field for that site "electronic cigarettes" and the first link is positive towards vaping. That's good. Virtually all the others are negative with information such as (and I quote), "Electronic cigarettes are not a smoking cessation product. Non-scientific claims about e-cigarettes are creating confusion in public perception about e-cigarette and people believe that e-cigarettes are safe and less addictive, but its use is unsafe and hazardous to human health."

So, when we provide links that promote "no really smoking is utterly horrible," I suggest we also see what that site has to say about vaping to help determine if we are looking at a site that is prone to junk science, or are they presenting a fair / balanced approach to data.

 

[rbrylawski]

I'm fairly confident by the way that smoking deaths are calculated that if you were to die tomorrow, you'd die as a 'smoker.' It's either 5 or 10 years cessation that would make one a non-smoker, but even then, I could see ANTZ types saying, "well of course he died at this age, he does have a history of smoking after all."

As noted in previous post, I don't think it is as likely as it was say 20 years ago for people to be abusive smokers which most (or perhaps all) of these stats are based on. There is data of centenarians who smoke til they are 102 years old, maybe older. But also from what I've read, they aren't doing a PAD but more like 2 to 4 a day, maybe less. I would then conclude that moderate smoking is unlikely to be met with harsh disease/early death. And would argue that with vaping in the picture, smokers are likely to cease smoking or cut down so far that it wouldn't automatically be a situation where smoking is detrimental to one's health, regardless of age they start at (assuming 12 years old and up).

I do find links like the one you provided questionable. I type in search field for that site "electronic cigarettes" and the first link is positive towards vaping. That's good. Virtually all the others are negative with information such as (and I quote), "Electronic cigarettes are not a smoking cessation product. Non-scientific claims about e-cigarettes are creating confusion in public perception about e-cigarette and people believe that e-cigarettes are safe and less addictive, but its use is unsafe and hazardous to human health."

So, when we provide links that promote "no really smoking is utterly horrible," I suggest we also see what that site has to say about vaping to help determine if we are looking at a site that is prone to junk science, or are they presenting a fair / balanced approach to data.

That's fair.......

 

[Plastic Shaman]

Why would you do ANTZ a favor? All that tobacco tax money=ANTZ income.

Well, if everyone smoked, then we would save a lot of money.

 

[towelie]

If EVERYONE smoked then you would still be in the hole by a large margin, fiscally speaking.

 

[Lanore]

Read the OP, and while I'm sure the discussion has moved away from it with over 100 pages of discussion, I'm gonna give my input:

I know a woman who has a kid who vapes. Kid's like 17 now, but started smoking cigs at 14. She grounded him, removed luxuries, random searches of his room, confiscated all sorts of stuff, talked with the school to have him put in "in school suspension", so that he had to do his work alone in a room isolated from his friends, and anything else you can think of. Heck she even had a police officer come over and tear his room apart to scare the life outta him because " if you're hanging out with that crowd who knows what you might be doing " .

It didn't break him. Not even a bit.

Eventually, about a year ago, he picked up vaping, and she gave up the fight. So long as he doesn't do it around her, she doesn't bother anymore. In retaliation to her previous attempts he purposely tanked his grades, refused to do chores, wouldn't talk to her, ect. By time he turned 16/17 she just didn't feel like fighting him anymore just for him to turn 18 and ignore her anyways.

What's worse is he's kinda a cool kid outside of that, but I don't talk with him anymore when I'm hanging out with his mother. Last time he tried to "talk shop" about vaping with me and I told him to <expletive> himself. I'm not about to encourage him and I'm not his mom, I don't need to make nice with him.

However, on the devil's advocate side of things, amongst the minors I have witnessed vaping, I think most of them were likely cig smokers in first place. In that light, while I wouldn't encourage or endorse them, I find it hard to complain too much. They shouldn't be smoking or vaping, but then again there are a lot of things teenagers do that they shouldn't. You can't stop them. That's the way its been forever.

Instead what I think should be focused on is demanding IDs at actual shops and finding a way to verify age online other than clicking a box that says " yes I'm 18+" and using a prepaid credit card.

In terms of vaping bringing people to nicotine that previously wouldn't have considered... well I'm a bad example. I went the first 23 years of my life without smoking or vaping. I grew up in a chain smoking family at that. I hate smoking with a passion. However I took up vaping for several different reasons. However my choice was an informed one based on what I wanted, not a peer pressure or indulgent one. Further my family life has vastly informed my views on substance use, and therefor my logic or thoughts are likely to be outside the mainstream on the issue. Because of that, my choice regarding nicotine is likely not a good example of the average person's thoughts or choices regarding nicotine.

Anyway, done with this WoT since I think I'm getting away from the topic. I don't know how to really keep kids away from them, but I'm not convinced vaping is encouraging kids who would never smoke or vape otherwise to suddenly pick it up either.