The FDA will NOT Ban E-cigarettes

[DocWyatt]

Well, Phillip Morris invented this. They canned it because they knew what I know- they cannot control it. Without significant regulation their business model is toast. They know it. They HAVE to have regulation ..simple as that.

 

[grandmato5]

Basically, it will come down to the current court case...

If the FDA wins
Electronic cigarettes will be declared drug delivery devices, and they will immediately be taken off the market.
The FDA will step up their efforts to confiscate shipments of anything and everything electronic cigarette related.
All electonic cigarette businesses in the United States will go out of business.

Electronic cigarettes will only return to the market after someone has applied for marketing them as a drug delivery device.
That process takes years, and is extremely expensive, and many studies must be conducted.
And then they will only return to market if approved by the FDA, which they may not be.

And if they do return, they will be extremely expensive, and possibly require a prescription.


If the FDA loses
Electronic cigarettes will be treated as tobacco products.
They will then be regulated by the FDA under the authority given by the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act.

Most likely they will available only in tamper-proof cartridges.
Most likely they will have strict limits on the nicotine strength, and it will probably be quite low.
It is also a strong possibility that they will remove all flavors, and only tobacco (and maybe menthol) flavors will be available.

Then the government will eventually establish a tax schedule for electronic cigarettes.

The current tax structure for tobacco products is mostly based on perceived harm of a given tobacco product.
For this reason, it seems safe to assume that the tax rate may not be that high as most people think.

Tobacco products are basically supposed to be taxed in relation to the harm they are believed to cause.
And because of that, electronic cigarettes should be taxed at rates comparable to snuff and snus.

I assume these are the current Federal Excise Taxes...
TTB Tax and Fee Rate

[B]Tobacco Products          [/B][B]1000 units      [/B][B]Pack of 20[/B]
Small Cigarettes            $50.33          $1.01
Large Cigarettes           $105.69          $2.11
Small Cigars                $50.33          $1.01
 
[B]Tobacco Products              [/B][B]1 lb.       [/B][B]Tin or Pouch[/B]
Pipe Tobacco                 $2.8311        $0.1769
Chewing Tobacco              $0.5033        $0.0315
Snuff                        $1.51          $0.0944
Roll-your-own Tobacco       $24.78          $1.5488

Good post DC2 as to the reality of what the FDA is extremely likely to do when the current court case is finally decided depending upon which way the verdict goes. Of coarse there will be a black market to be found for all our needs for vaporing but the average consumer will not participate in that black market to obtain all the things neccesary to continue to enjoy vaping. And with any black market things become much more expensive. Some of those already choosing to vapor have found their mods and methods that will allow them to continue to vapor much easier than most in this vapor community but far to many are vaporing on a day to day basis IMHO. I've never been an alarmist and take most things in stride as they come but I'm also a realist and IF I want to continue to vapor on my own terms until I'm ready to give up my nicotine addiction without having to go back to analogs I know I need to be prepared WHEN big brother decides to make vaporing difficult for me.

 

[Neostalker]

The FDA will never win. They can go to hell all they want is our money and could give two ....s about anyones health or safety...It's all a crock of .... to me. lol sorry FDA won't let me be.

 

[Petrodus]

Neostalker wrote: all they want is our money and could give two ....s about anyone's health or safety.

Right...It's all about money.

Money, not morality, is the principle commerce of civilized nations. Thomas Jefferson

Collectively, the ECF membership represents the most knowledgeable group on the planet...Heck, there are those who build their own PVs and mix their on juice and willing to share the information on how they do it.

I feel fortunate to be a member of the ECF. It's a true comfort knowing answers to any vaping question (or problem) only requires a few key strokes and click.

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[DC2]

I am not sure I understand your fears. I am sure they are valid but, I don't get your point. It is like comparing apples to oranges. Can you please help me understand your point?

Your link points to an article where the stores are being raided for selling paraphernalia which were claimed to be for tobacco use but used for smoking .......... Electronic cigarettes are not used for smoking .......... They are used for smoking vapor containing nicotine. Unless electronic cigarettes become more used for illegal drug use, there shouldn't be the same fear.

My point was that if electronic cigarettes are declared drug delivery devices the FDA can and will take them away if they want to.

 

[DC2]

I can see in that post that you are truly afraid of the FDA and/or government. I honestly believe that you are over-estimating their power. Maybe you are correct. None of us really know at this point. Yet, I think I am going to respectively agree to disagree.

Think what you want, but what I laid out are the facts of the current situation.
If there is something I said that you believe not to be the case, please let me know what that is.

 

[Wilvin]

Well I am a newbie to all of this, but was a pharmacy tech for 20 years. So know a bit about the FDA and their tricks. One industries the FDA has fought to regulate and has not had any success in doing is the vitamin and supplement industry. The only time they can step in is when a company make the claim that it cures something or can treat something. So these companies usually say something else to hint at this "cure" but not say that it does it. Now with nicotine there is the problem that it is classified as a mild narcotic. So in a way they can regulate it, but only in making it illegal to sell to minors. But since it is legal to use for adults, they can not say an adult can not buy it. If they did then they would have to make analogs illegal. As to taxing it I think they would have to get states to add it to there tobacco tax laws. Which would be hard to do, then they would have to put tobacco tax on thing like Nicorette and other nicotine replacement therapies. And I don't think the drug companies would like that. As to the delivery devices, they might be able to regulate those. But not too sure about that since they usually can only regulate devices that are classified as for medical use. The bulk nicotine liquid is a iffy thing also since for the most part I think it is sold as a chemical. There are are a lot of chemicals that are sold in bulk that can be used in medicine that anyone can buy. That is why .... is so widespread since some of the stuff that gets you high is legal to buy in bulk (though they have cracked down on this) The FDA will have a tuff time regulating this. Plus (even though I hate the Man) Rush Limbaugh is a huge advocate for vaping. So if they try something you know he will go after them on his radio show.

 

[LordDavon]

Think what you want, but what I laid out are the facts of the current situation.
If there is something I said that you believe not to be the case, please let me know what that is.

I did not realize you had facts. Can you please post links to these so I may educate myself?

 

[LordDavon]

Well I am a newbie to all of this, but was a pharmacy tech for 20 years. So know a bit about the FDA and their tricks. One industries the FDA has fought to regulate and has not had any success in doing is the vitamin and supplement industry. The only time they can step in is when a company make the claim that it cures something or can treat something. So these companies usually say something else to hint at this "cure" but not say that it does it. Now with nicotine there is the problem that it is classified as a mild narcotic. So in a way they can regulate it, but only in making it illegal to sell to minors. But since it is legal to use for adults, they can not say an adult can not buy it. If they did then they would have to make analogs illegal. As to taxing it I think they would have to get states to add it to there tobacco tax laws. Which would be hard to do, then they would have to put tobacco tax on thing like Nicorette and other nicotine replacement therapies. And I don't think the drug companies would like that. As to the delivery devices, they might be able to regulate those. But not too sure about that since they usually can only regulate devices that are classified as for medical use. The bulk nicotine liquid is a iffy thing also since for the most part I think it is sold as a chemical. There are are a lot of chemicals that are sold in bulk that can be used in medicine that anyone can buy. That is why .... is so widespread since some of the stuff that gets you high is legal to buy in bulk (though they have cracked down on this) The FDA will have a tuff time regulating this. Plus (even though I hate the Man) Rush Limbaugh is a huge advocate for vaping. So if they try something you know he will go after them on his radio show.

Correct. I still work in the pharmaceutical industry.

 

[Petrodus]

Wilvin wrote:
Rush Limbaugh is a huge advocate for vaping. So if they try something you know he will go after them on his radio show.

One thing the movement is short on is high-profile people supporting vaping. Katherine Heigl & David Letterman vaping on TV and Rush Limbaugh's piece on his radio program really did more for the movement than many realize. We need more to "come out".

 

[Wilvin]

Well my info could be out of date, but for the most part I think it is pretty accurate. The FDA would have a hard time regulating vaping, because it would open a whole big can of worms. Like regulating caffeine(which is also a mild narcotic), bottled water (since companies can use tap water and say it is spring water), Sugar(because is is can cause overweight,and cavities in teeth), and a whole lot of other things. They might try to go after vaping since the anti smoking lobby is so strong, where as the other things don't have a large group that is against them. Though a lawyer that handles FDA issues would be needed to know for sure what is legal and what is not.

 

[Mentat Ix]

Sounds like a bunch of guesswork to me, all around. Personally, I don't worry at all about the devices - you can make everything you need pretty easy. There's a lot of modders doing some crazy complicated stuff, but you can set up the basics dead easy - there's step by step guides all over the internet - a lot of them right here.

The juice may be trickier - I haven't messed with that yet, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's going to be a long time before the FDA can do anything too drastic, I figure.

 

[Wilvin]

The juice may be trickier - I haven't messed with that yet, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it. It's going to be a long time before the FDA can do anything too drastic, I figure.

I agree there, the FDA is like any government agency in that the take forever to do anything. I don't see this as a priority issue with them. They will look into it to please the anti nicotine lobby, but to really do anything it will be years before they do. And even then they will have a hard time getting it regulated.

 

[Thomas Simms]

I agree there, the FDA is like any government agency in that the take forever to do anything. I don't see this as a priority issue with them. They will look into it to please the anti nicotine lobby, but to really do anything it will be years before they do. And even then they will have a hard time getting it regulated.

This is exactly what i think. I do think the government will do something eventually, but they have more pressing issues that our PV's. I am only 19 so im not going to get too into this but what I have seen is that the government has more important issues than this.

 

[DC2]

I did not realize you had facts. Can you please post links to these so I may educate myself?

Here is a thread that summarizes the court case...
SE, NJoy vs FDA -- court dockets / updates

And I haven't looked at this thread yet, but it looks like it might be helpful...
What is this Case all about, why do we need to watch it, and how to get up to speed on it

 

[raidy]

How is it regulated in Germany? Just the juice or they regulate all the hardware too?

Only the juice. They sleeped a long time, but the news from FDA waked them up.
The first liquid dealers get letters that they have to stop selling liquid with nicotin.

 

[DC2]

They might try to go after vaping since the anti smoking lobby is so strong, where as the other things don't have a large group that is against them. Though a lawyer that handles FDA issues would be needed to know for sure what is legal and what is not.

Many people assume it it Big Tobacco that is against us, but it is not.
Those that are in the trenches every day tell us that the money trail leads straight to Big Pharmacy.

All of the attempted state bans are attributable to the alphabet soups of anti-tobacco.
And all of the FDA actions are also somewhat attributable to the alphabet soups of anti-tobacco.

The money goes from Big Pharmacy, to the alphabet soups.

And here is the alphabet soup, who receive big funds from the pharmacy companies...
American Academy of Pediatrics, American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network, American Heart Association, American Legacy Foundation, American Lung Association, American Medical Association, Action on Smoking and Health, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, Public Citizen and Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids

 

[LordDavon]

Here is a thread that summarizes the court case...
SE, NJoy vs FDA -- court dockets / updates

And I haven't looked at this thread yet, but it looks like it might be helpful...
What is this Case all about, why do we need to watch it, and how to get up to speed on it

Thank you. I am going to hang out with my daughter for a while and will read it when she heads to bed. Gotta love reading court documents. ;-)

David

 

[LordDavon]

Many people assume it it Big Tobacco that is against us, but it is not.
Those that are in the trenches every day tell us that the money trail leads straight to Big Pharmacy.

All of the attempted state bans are attributable to the alphabet soups of anti-tobacco.
And all of the FDA actions are also somewhat attributable to the alphabet soups of anti-tobacco.

The money goes from Big Pharmacy, to the alphabet soups.

And here is the alphabet soup, who receive big funds from the pharmacy companies...
American Academy of Pediatrics, American Cancer Society Cancer Action Network, American Heart Association, American Legacy Foundation, American Lung Association, American Medical Association, Action on Smoking and Health, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration, Public Citizen and Campaign for Tobacco-Free Kids

I work in the Pharmaceutical Industry. Are you confusing Big Pharmacy with drug companies? Big Pharmacy would be CVS, Walgreens, etc... This is Big Pharmacy where I work. The drug companies, from 3M to Zentiva, are considered Big Pharmaceutical (Big Pharma). I will even toss Amerisource Bergin and McKesson in there. ;-) Just remember, with someone who works in the Pharmaceutical Industry, there is a difference.

Also, I think people talk about Big Tobacco because of articles like these: Big Tobacco Beware, the Next Big Story Stock Could Involve E-Cigarettes -- Seeking Alpha and Big Tobacco and the E Cigarette | Electronic Cigarette News and... well, there are a ton. Yes, Big Pharma is the worst but, Big Tobacco is getting .......

David

 

[Petrodus]

LordDavon wrote:
Yes, Big Pharma is the worst but, Big Tobacco is getting .......

Big Tobacco is .........No sympathy here!

Very interesting thread

_________________________________________________
Secrets of the FDA: Suppressed Information
Drug Industry, FDA and Health Issues
Jonathan W. Emord
Only attorney in history who has defeated the FDA 7 times
6 times on First Amendment grounds
Click Here