"News" outlets have a tendency to pick and choose what they want the general public to know.
The Meeting Between CASAA and the FDA is Today
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So does this mean we wont find out anything until the FDA has a formal press release or something? Not real happy that this Top Secret stuff is going on with gov officials.
I am sure the only thing news agencies will chime in on will be bad news or the Sensationalism news.
The reason I quit watching the news a few years back.
I have always thought that you didn't really need to make laws where common sense is a choice. You cannot save everyone from themselves.
Maybe all the Gov and Pharm wants is cig tax money and its all about greed.
Yes I am worried about things they could ban. Why on earth would the Gov. stop a smoker from quitting. Why would the Gov. make it more difficult to be able to quit smoking so easy?
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Lol it's alright, I figured you didn't know what the cha cha slide was.
I am now an ex-smoker, very accidentally, pretty much because of PVs. I am an extremely logical and analytical person, and as an accountant, I am trained in objectivity. I'll just toss in, for those of you that set store by such things, that I have an IQ in the ninety-seventh percentile. On a personal note I will never, ever, vilify people who still indulge in smoking.
Smoking (or vaping for that matter) bans in the outdoors have never made any sense to me. The dispersion effects are such that it appears impossible to me that anyone could possibly experience any real harm from it. Might not like the smell, but then if you want absolutely innocuous air (which doesn't actually exist by the way - oxygen itself is extremely corrosive), then don't go anywhere near busses, cars, or any industrial activity.
I'm too tired right now to search for a link to the studies, but children who are exposed to a wide variety of "allergens" at a young age are less likely to develop allergies later in life (this is actually the basis for the logic of childhood immunizations against common illnesses such as small pox). Farm kids have some of the lowest rates of allergy afflictions. There is at least a two-fold reason for the higher level of reported allergies these days; obsession with making everything anti-bacterial, and diagnoses leading to attracting more funding for support (classroom or personal care aides etc.) - not to mention the ubiquioutness [is that a word?] of instantaneous dissemination of information via the internet.
As vapers, we should absolutely not buy into the SHS or THS story.
Smoking (or vaping for that matter) bans in the outdoors have never made any sense to me. The dispersion effects are such that it appears impossible to me that anyone could possibly experience any real harm from it. Might not like the smell, but then if you want absolutely innocuous air (which doesn't actually exist by the way - oxygen itself is extremely corrosive), then don't go anywhere near busses, cars, or any industrial activity.
I'm too tired right now to search for a link to the studies, but children who are exposed to a wide variety of "allergens" at a young age are less likely to develop allergies later in life (this is actually the basis for the logic of childhood immunizations against common illnesses such as small pox). Farm kids have some of the lowest rates of allergy afflictions. There is at least a two-fold reason for the higher level of reported allergies these days; obsession with making everything anti-bacterial, and diagnoses leading to attracting more funding for support (classroom or personal care aides etc.) - not to mention the ubiquioutness [is that a word?] of instantaneous dissemination of information via the internet.
As vapers, we should absolutely not buy into the SHS or THS story.
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Name those "nefarious acts" and I bet I could show evidence that most are an ANTZ lie.
Turning a blind eye to child labour in Malawi
Peddling to under agers via music events-also Malawi
Adding Ammonia to cigarettes in order to 'free-base' the nicotine
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My only point is that our failure to defend private property rights with regard to smoking/second-hand smoke may well haunt us with regard to private property rights with vaping. I agree that the owners wishes are paramount. An owner has the right to deny or permit any legal activity on their premises.
I generally stand for smokers rights, since I was one in the not so distant past. I often sense many vapers have little sympathy or desire to defend their issues. My view is that this is a tactical blunder.
Tapped out
There are plenty of other things they can be worried about. Like all the drugs they ok that it takes half of a 30 second commercial to list all the bad side effects: "may cause profuse bleeding, bloody ........, and death as occurred in some patients.." etc.
I think ceding moral high ground, especially now that we are ex-smokers (aka success stories) is a much larger tactical error. Smoking is difficult to defend at best at the point at which it affects nonsmokers. The fact that vaping is virtually harmless to vapers and as far as we know completely harmless to bystanders is perhaps our most powerful case to be made. Going back to defending burning tobacco is IMO chaining ourselves to a dead weight. Vaping will likely be proven quite safe and burning tobacco will become even less popular.
But this is certainly not something either of us will change our minds on, most likely. I totally understand the point you are making, and I understand the justification.
The first two I haven't researched so I can't comment yet (recall I said "most.")
The last one is ANTZ propaganda:
1) Ammonia is natural in tobacco
2) Lots of consumer goods are processed with ammonia (meats, baked goods) and few people care
3) Ammonia is not a carcinogen
4) There is no evidence the ammonia used to process tobacco increases the health risks of smoking
5) Free base nicotine occurs naturally in tobacco smoke - it's the gas form of nicotine (put simply)
6) There is no proof free base nicotine makes cigarettes "more addictive" - that is postulation.
7) ANTZ claim cigarettes without ammonia processing are just as addictive as those with it.
8) Additive-free American Spirits has been found to have more free base nicotine than those using ammonia
9) Most nicotine is deposited in the lungs through smoke particle matter (some call this "tar.") Free base nicotine can travel in the gas matter, which theoretically means less cigarettes need be smoked and less exposure to "tar" to get the same amount of nicotine.
10) Nicotine users self regulate and most of the health risks come from the smoke. Unlike other drugs, where free base versions cause users to want more and there is increased risk of death by overdose, more free base nicotine in cigarettes could mean less smoke exposure even if it makes it "more addictive" to new users. Accidental nicotine overdose is extremely rare in adult tobacco users.
Ammonia and "free base nicotine" in cigarettes is the same ANTZ scare tactic of using frightening words as "anti freeze" in e-cigarettes
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The word 'free base' has become known as a bad word because of the term being used in drug user circles. (It's hard to come up with something that doesn't go against TOS!) It is actually a chemists term. When people hear that word used, it conjures up bad images in the mind.
U know this is more of a rant, this is sheer lunacy.
Its as if all of a sudden overnight we have suddenly gone onto
an Orwellian state.
War is somehow peace.
Double speak, I wanna just shout scream.
Orwell was a few years off, but it is finally here.
Ban restrict the use of ecigs, but regular cigarettes
are somehow ok.
Even though I might joke with my co-workers who smoke,
we shouldn't villify those who still smoke.
My head is spinning from all that I see going on around me.
Those of you who grew up inb the 60's and 70's have to be saying damn
Its as if all of a sudden overnight we have suddenly gone onto
an Orwellian state.
War is somehow peace.
Double speak, I wanna just shout scream.
Orwell was a few years off, but it is finally here.
Ban restrict the use of ecigs, but regular cigarettes
are somehow ok.
Even though I might joke with my co-workers who smoke,
we shouldn't villify those who still smoke.
My head is spinning from all that I see going on around me.
Those of you who grew up inb the 60's and 70's have to be saying damn
I was already grown up in the 60s and 70s, and I've been saying damn since the day I saw then-Surgeon General C. Everett Coop, in his nifty Public Health Service uniform, on TV denouncing the evils of cigarettes. (Maybe I was ahead of my time, but I saw the slippery slope way back then.) Been saying damn ever since.
They don't want another SnowdenThe FDA had our people sign a confidentiality agreement? For a listening session? Good grief...
(AgentAnia may not be around the forum much today. She'll be busy making tinfoil hats for the tobacco control people at FDA...)
"Shhhhhhh, We have already made up our minds..we just don't want the public to know we have"
want to get or have the leadership of CASAA get true strength for support, bend the ear of the NRA and the good people of the firearm community, not kidding...the similarities of the "persecution" of our hobby or indulgence due to ignorance or "fear driven by" ignorance of the "vaping community" is eerily similar to that of the "firearm community"
The lies and disinformation and plain old "fear" driven by ignorance the firearm community has grown to identify and deal with on a regular basis...we have HUGE numbers and are already calloused against those that use the same methods of attack in order to push an agenda...want a ready made army...convince those in the firearm community the "nanny state" has set its sights on another group and "we need their help!"
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**cough** high fructose corn syrup **cough** lets not forget the dangers this presents..yet the FDA is mute and silent on this...
Princeton University - A sweet problem: Princeton researchers find that high-fructose corn syrup prompts considerably more weight gain
Sorry for the side track, not meant to derail the thread...
honestly if you look at the 3 largest chemicals you're ingesting when smoking an analog, is nicotine even the "culprit" behind these illnesses and addictions?
What are the 3 largest you ask
nicotine, TAR and Carbon Monoxide (CO)...nicotine levels are usually 4-12x LESS levels than TAR or CO...here is a list of most cigs by brand name, I think you will see a pattern emerging rather quickly...nicotine levels are the vast minority consumed compared to the other two
What effect does the two most prevalent chemicals have on the human body...and what commutative effect does it have from YEARS of physical and chemical stresses on the body...we have seen it...people DIE prematurely due to it
I have posted this several times on the forum...I think people are probably sick of seeing it...but it needs to be repeated until people understand why I'm saying it:
Sorry for the rapid fire replies too...
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why doesnt someone step out of their building on a busy street,take an air sample as a few cars drive by,then take a similar sample of E-CIG vapor blown out and run a test on particles which are "BAD" for us..I will side on the e-cig for the least amount.But that is only stating the obvious.
The first two I haven't researched so I can't comment yet (recall I said "most.")
The last one is ANTZ propaganda:
1) Ammonia is natural in tobacco
(so why is # 4 in this list ?)
2) Lots of consumer goods are processed with ammonia (meats, baked goods) and few people care
(no, cos its not a carcinogen-#3)
3) Ammonia is not a carcinogen
(ok)
4) There is no evidence the ammonia used to process tobacco increases the health risks of smoking
(ok)
5) Free base nicotine occurs naturally in tobacco smoke - it's the gas form of nicotine (put simply)
(ok)
6) There is no proof free base nicotine makes cigarettes "more addictive" - that is postulation.
(ok-from #10 "even if it makes it "more addictive" to new users)
7) ANTZ claim cigarettes without ammonia processing are just as addictive as those with it.
(how would they know?)
8) Additive-free American Spirits has been found to have more free base nicotine than those using ammonia
(ok)
9) Most nicotine is deposited in the lungs through smoke particle matter (some call this "tar.") Free base nicotine can travel in the gas matter, which theoretically means less cigarettes need be smoked and less exposure to "tar" to get the same amount of nicotine.
( theoretically ?-Ok, so a PAD smoker doesn't smoke a PAD ?-because of the free base nicotine, which occurs naturally in tobacco smoke, so more free base nicotine is like THR-would that make ammonia an important ingredient then-IYO ?)
10) Nicotine users self regulate and most of the health risks come from the smoke. Unlike other drugs, where free base versions cause users to want more and there is increased risk of death by overdose, more free base nicotine in cigarettes could mean less smoke exposure even if it makes it "more addictive" to new users. Accidental nicotine overdose is extremely rare in adult tobacco users.
( I think we're all clear on the harmfull component in tobacco smoke-and no one has OD'd on cigs )
Ammonia and "free base nicotine" in cigarettes is the same ANTZ scare tactic of using frightening words as "anti freeze" in e-cigarettes
(I'm not an Antz or even an ANTZ Kristin-but ammonia in cigarettes as an additive used to bother me a lot when I smoked-was I being silly or over cautious? Kristin ?)
What do you think those of us that grew up in the 40's and 50's are saying !?!
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