The problem with electronic cigarettes...

[AndriaD]

I think a lot of it is psychological, the habit of smoking that is.

But in a way I sometimes think that just making things easier and encourging people to just "buy something else more" is starting to approximate the "I just want to take a Pill" that is so prevalent in the health care industry?

There has to be a certain amount of self-awareness, discipline, desire to reach goal and plan for that, etc.

One of the interesting things that made me think about this is that I had allen carr's very famous book up in the classies, The easy Way to Quit Smoking. I only asked for $5.

This book has sold billions........because it's so good. It's even good for losing weight, etc. It helps you get your mind in teh right place and examine some of your thoughts about stuff.

well, there were no takers. Almost 500 views.

If it had been $5 worth of coils it would have sold in first 5 minutes.

Nobody wants to do the work. The book was given to a friend who is vaping but struggling to put down the cigs. I read at least 20 of those sort of posts per day here, over 2 years now, yet nobody wanted the book.\

What do you make of that?

vaping is great, and yes, it is harder. But if everything is supposed to be easy then there is no human endeavor left in the equation is there? I mean, just surviving everyday, cooking, working, shopping, requires quite a deal of effort and time.

There IS a reason why all successful professional and olympic athletes use sports psychologists. Its to keep their mind in shape, because the body only does 1/2 the work in any endeavor, and everyone knows that.

I guess I am still curious why nobody wanted the book in spite of fact that I read nothing but posts about people vaping but still not being able to put down the cigs. And the answer is always to "buy something".

I know people have shopping addictions trying to "fill up" some other need, so I just don't ascribe to the buy something because it is really just an extension of the "take a pill" philosophy. I really believe you have to involve yourself and look within, figure out stuff sometimes, try to SOLVE the problem from where it originates----

My own personal experience was that all the times I tried to quit, because I thought I "ought to," "I should quit," etc, failed miserably. This time, after all these years (39!), I was just tired of the HASSLE OF SMOKING! The butts, the ashes, the stink, the going outdoors in freezing weather, the CONSTANT coughing and coughing up, the obscene cost, etc etc etc... so when I found something that closely approximated all the things I liked about smoking, and had none of the things I didn't, well that was an easy decision to make, and I WANTED TO MAKE IT. That's the real key, I think. If you try to quit because you "should," or you "ought to," or someone else thinks it would be a good thing to do, you'll never be able to do it. But if just once YOU decide that you REALLY WANT TO QUIT, it becomes very simple. No, the cravings don't just vanish; you have to work on banishing them, and e-cigs are a great help, but they're not the whole story -- you have to simply TAKE THE OPTION OFF THE TABLE. Or in terms of what I've heard in AA... "don't _____ even if your ... falls off." Drink, smoke, whatever it is you want to stop doing. If you remove the option from your own mind, that's about 99% of the battle.

But as long as there is even a shred of "well I'll only do it if I really NEED it" in your mind, your brain will MANUFACTURE a need, guaranteed.

So, vaping can be a bit of a hassle. So was smoking, and I think people forget that, and it's also obscenely expensive. Vaping isn't, or it doesn't have to be, if you can rein in your Shinyitis impulses to a minimum. Vaping is a terrifically effective key to unlock Smokers' Prison, but you still have to open the door and walk out, yourself -- no one can do it for you.

Andria

 

[olie]

I see your point, but this is a somewhat inappropriate comparison. You are comparing two different scenarios using the same exact object. Vaping and smoking cigarettes are completely different.

Here is the issue. There is no exact vapor to analog smoke ratio established. If you wanted to create a device that would limit a users puffs to equal the exact nic absorption as a cigarette, you would need to establish constants for multiple variables. The device would also need to fire for an exact amount of time with no variation, know the exact cigarettes you used to smoke, and know personal things such as body weight to calculate how much nic is needed. Bio-availability between the two different delivery forms, and more importantly, the exact amount entering the blood stream per hit and how this absorbed nic reacts in the body over a certain period of time, lets say 5 minutes for arguments sake. One person hitting an ecig might need to take 50 hits in 10min and 20 in 20 minutes for someone else to get the same effect.

My point is, this is all about knowing your limits and having self control. There is no end-all established data due to variations in different people. New users need to figure out what satisfies them, and at that point try to control their vaping. Your idea, in my opinion, would do nothing but result in frustration and non-satisfied users or over consumption because the device is telling them what to do.

EDIT: Also, by your suggestion and comments, it seems that you never experienced a time where you needed more than 1 cigarette in a sitting to satisfy you? Or a full cigarette was too much so you put it out before it was finished? Everyone is different and no device can factor in all the variables. Sometimes I would smoke 3 cigarettes in a row before I was satisfied, sometimes I couldn't handle more than half of one. I don't think there is a person in the world that would smoke exactly one cigarette to exactly the same point every single time they have one. It's just not realistic in real-world scenarios.

I don't think hitting an exact nicotine consumption is that important. Cigarettes can also vary in how much is absorbed, depending on how you smoke them too. Using a user set number between a range choice seems the best solution to me. I think if we all had perfect self control we wouldn't be smokers or vapers? If there was a reason to wait i think most would accept it but that's a different issue. Everyone is slightly different so yes it would be difficult to design a good product but i'm more conceptualizing right now.

 

[Zealous]

@OP: it's not really that people think your thoughts on the subject are invalid. I think people are over sensitive about anything that hints at restriction & your idea does do that. HST I can see why a new vaper might find it comfortable to have sensory indicators that make them feel like they're "done" vaping (like you would get with a cigarette). But as you stick with vaping you will find those indicators with your preferred device.

Also I have found that having the appropriate strength of nicotine helps with this a lot. If you have too low a strength you will not feel satisfied & will feel compelled to continue to vape when you might not actually "want" to. But if your nic strength is right for you the nic buzz will regulate how much you end up vaping. Some people like to vape a lot so they keep their nic strength low so they can vape a lot. I prefer a higher strength so I can take a couple puffs & feel like I've got enough & I can move on to something else.

 

[TheColdHandedVG]

I don't think hitting an exact nicotine consumption is that important. Cigarettes can also vary in how much is absorbed, depending on how you smoke them too. Using a user set number between a range choice seems the best solution to me. I think if we all had perfect self control we wouldn't be smokers or vapers? If there was a reason to wait i think most would accept it but that's a different issue. Everyone is slightly different so yes it would be difficult to design a good product but i'm more conceptualizing right now.

HA! Yes, if we all had perfect self-control this forum wouldn't even exist. There is definitely nothing wrong with conceptualizing; I just felt it important to play the devil's advocate here because there are many issues with this. I don't think anything cool/nice would exist in this world if it wasn't for conceptualizing. I am sure someone could figure it out, but I am not sure if it would be worth the effort.

In my opinion, I think the best way to establish what is satisfying is for open vaping with no limits and determining at what point you are satisfied. This actually sounds like a good device for more experienced users because they already know what is satisfying for them.

 

[TheColdHandedVG]

@OP: it's not really that people think your thoughts on the subject are invalid. I think people are over sensitive about anything that hints at restriction & your idea does do that. HST I can see why a new vaper might find it comfortable to have sensory indicators that make them feel like they're "done" vaping (like you would get with a cigarette). But as you stick with vaping you will find those indicators with your preferred device.

Also I have found that having the appropriate strength of nicotine helps with this a lot. If you have too low a strength you will not feel satisfied & will feel compelled to continue to vape when you might not actually "want" to. But if your nic strength is right for you the nic buzz will regulate how much you end up vaping. Some people like to vape a lot so they keep their nic strength low so they can vape a lot. I prefer a higher strength so I can take a couple puffs & feel like I've got enough & I can move on to something else.

Well also a big point missed by many, and something I didn't really comment on, was the OP bringing up the issue with certain chemicals not being released in the same way as cigarette smoking, but not being due to the actual smoke/nicotine at all, but the act of smoking and events leading up to it. I definitely see a valid point there, but I feel this is much more easily solved by changing a persons habits/expectations instead of creating a complex device which might not create the same effect to begin with.

 

[zoiDman]

I wonder if this...

Besides being much more satisfying it would also stop us chain vaping, which seems like a real issue based on my use and what i've heard of other peoples.

... has any Relevance as to why Some of the Indoor Vaping Threads get so Heated?

 

[AndriaD]

I understand about dopamine, the uncertainty of reward and unlimited lag time. What is missing IMO and is not going to be addressed by these aspects are the other chemicals smokers are addicted to and have to get over when they switch. The dopamine effect is not strong enough to counteract this.

The chemical mix in smoking is very different compared to vaping. Nicotine is a small part of this. I used to vape myself into a state of too much nic and still wanted to vape more. IMO the benefit of absorbing a lot of nic is only helpful when we make the switch away from smoking and the nic gains significance for a while as a replacement for the other chemicals that have left the soup. After a while, as I think you have experienced also, the addiction is overcome and we vape much more for pleasure.

Good insights... My own plan to start "pacing myself," as someone else put it, is really only possible BECAUSE I've been off of those many-thousands of other chemicals for a sufficient time to pretty much clear them from my system, leaving only the nicotine -- which turns out to be not nearly as addictive as we've all been led to believe in the past.

I succeeded very well yesterday in the "pacing myself," -- which bears out the "less addictive than we thought" idea, because I could never do that with cigarettes -- so that last night my coughing was far less, and when I woke up this morning, my asthma was pretty much normal for waking; I needed the inhaler, and I needed to cough up, but none of that scary "OMG I can't breathe!" feeling I had yesterday morning. I've also implemented the part of my plan that calls for going back up slightly on my PG, so I can bring the VG back down to no more than 25%, and have raised my nic level by 1mg, to make the episodic use of my PV more satisfying.

It seems to be working; I'm not freaking out, having "nic fits" -- because when I do feel a strong desire to vape, then I go over there to the PV and vape, 3-4 puffs; after meals, I go ahead and vape for 10-15 minutes, then take it back to my "vaping station" and put it down. I'm coughing a great deal less, and even the swelling in my feet/ankles seems less, and less painful. So it's not necessary to get all huffy and "this isn't working, I guess I have to go back to smoking," it's only necessary to stop the chain-vaping and exercise a bit of restraint -- restraint which would not be possible at all, if I had not found vaping and broken the addiction to those many-thousands of OTHER chemicals.

Andria

 

[olie]

Well also a big point missed by many, and something I didn't really comment on, was the OP bringing up the issue with certain chemicals not being released in the same way as cigarette smoking, but not being due to the actual smoke/nicotine at all, but the act of smoking and events leading up to it. I definitely see a valid point there, but I feel this is much more easily solved by changing a persons habits/expectations instead of creating a complex device which might not create the same effect to begin with.

Perhaps that is a better solution my only thought with that is the smokers who really love smoking who have no desire to quit. They don't have the patience to form the habits.

 

[Equilibrium]

It's not so much the events that lead up to smoking that activates the dopamine reward system as it is the nicotine itself that causes the chemical release.

In my case, I felt anxious prior to smoking (excess norepinephrine) and happy or at ease afterwards (dopamine release)

 

[Equilibrium]

Perhaps that is a better solution my only thought with that is the smokers who really love smoking who have no desire to quit. They don't have the patience to form the habits.

I agree... It has a lot to do with habit as much or more than anything else.

 

[AndriaD]

I had to learn this the hard way - "When the fear of continued use outweighs the fear of quitting, you will quit"

I was addicted the the most powerful chemical know to release dopamine. The chemical structure is so close to dopamine that the receptors in the brain confuse the two and said chemical will actually bind itself to the receptors. In addition to that, the chemical also shuts off the reuptake of dopamine and after a period of time the brain just shuts off the dopamine receptors making them inactive and eventually the the surplus dopamine you have dies out. It took 7 years after I quit for my brain chemistry to balance out and for me to start feeling somewhat normal again.

I know just what you mean, and I was very, very fortunate to have stopped using that substance a few months before becoming pregnant. Pregnancy does such a number on brain chemistry via hormones, plus the need to be "responsible" for this new person I was building, that I never felt any further desire for that substance, and suffered very little from its absence. I was just really glad I got those "wild oats" out of my system before becoming a parent.

Andria

 

[Zealous]

Perhaps that is a better solution my only thought with that is the smokers who really love smoking who have no desire to quit. They don't have the patience to form the habits.

Well that's a different story. If someone doesn't "want" to quit then gimmicks aren't going to satisfy. But having the right amount of nic strength AND enjoying the flavor of the eliquid they're using will go a long way to helping a user's thinking change. People will form new habits for something they like.

 

[Equilibrium]

Absolutely!!

 

[Vaslovik]

Well that's a different story. If someone doesn't "want" to quit then gimmicks aren't going to satisfy. But having the right amount of nic strength AND enjoying the flavor of the eliquid they're using will go a long way to helping a user's thinking change. People will form new habits for something they like.

When I started vaping I wanted to quit the cigs. As soon as I had a vape that satisfied me the cigs were history. That took 2 days. I started out with 18 mg juice, and dropped to 12. I started with eGo rigs and went to a mech and RBA. At no point did I see the need for electronics to control my vaping. I was quite capable of doing that for myself without such gadgetry.

 

[Equilibrium]

I know just what you mean, and I was very, very fortunate to have stopped using that substance a few months before becoming pregnant. Pregnancy does such a number on brain chemistry via hormones, plus the need to be "responsible" for this new person I was building, that I never felt any further desire for that substance, and suffered very little from its absence. I was just really glad I got those "wild oats" out of my system before becoming a parent.

Andria

Congrats!!

I wish I hadn't suffered like I did but I guess 10+ years of very heavy daily use was more than my body could stand. It's all good though. I've never felt better today!

 

[antony73]

Good idea.

Smoking a cigarette takes around five minutes, vaping the equivalent is apparently around 12 minutes. If there was some kind of timer, I could pace myself throughout the day, instead of having my MVP glued to my hand 24/7.

Recently I have taken to stopping everything, relaxing and enjoying a good vape for around 10 minutes, then putting it away. Only when I'm working do I take the occasional one or two random vapes.

Not sure this is something I'd use exclusively, but I do like where you're coming from. And definitely a good selling point for smokers.

 

[twgbonehead]

I think the OP's idea would work well for me.

Except that I'd have to keep 4 or 5 of them in constant rotation!

 

[TheColdHandedVG]

It's not so much the events that lead up to smoking that activates the dopamine reward system as it is the nicotine itself that causes the chemical release.

In my case, I felt anxious prior to smoking (excess norepinephrine) and happy or at ease afterwards (dopamine release)

And that is another good point. Not many people experience the same chemicals being released when they go to light up (right before) because some might feel anxious, maybe some adrenaline flowing through them for some, maybe some get happy from some 'feel good' chemicals, maybe some get depressed from the thought of smoking killing them slowly and that is due to different chemicals being released in the brain. Vaping might give the complete opposite reaction and no matter the device or it's features we might never be able to recreate the exact events leading up to lighting up without actually lighting up.

 

[TheColdHandedVG]

Good idea.

Smoking a cigarette takes around five minutes, vaping the equivalent is apparently around 12 minutes. If there was some kind of timer, I could pace myself throughout the day, instead of having my MVP glued to my hand 24/7.

Recently I have taken to stopping everything, relaxing and enjoying a good vape for around 10 minutes, then putting it away. Only when I'm working do I take the occasional one or two random vapes.

Not sure this is something I'd use exclusively, but I do like where you're coming from. And definitely a good selling point for smokers.

Sure, it sounds all nice and dandy when you put it simply like that, but the reality of the situation is the fact that there are too many variables at play. You say that the equivalent to a 5 minute smoke break would be about 12 minutes of vaping. Well, I know for a fact that I take my drags at a minimum at least half as often while vaping as if I were on a smoke break, which would result in a max amount of puffs in about 10 minutes of vaping being equivalent to a 5 minute smoke break. That would mean that each hit from my ecig is reacting exactly the same way as my analogs. I don't think so....

My point is, wayyyy too many variables to say that. How long are your hits? Nic content of juice? Cigarettes you are comparing to? How long were your drags off those cigarettes? How often did you take a drag? How much of that cigarette left with the wind and never even entered your lungs? What wattage are you vaping at? Whats your voltage drop? How much airflow? Temperature of the atomizer at 1min, 2min, 3min, 4min, etc....? How is the nic of the juice affected at that temp? The list of questions goes on.... And I don't mean to be a smart-a-- by this comment, just trying to prove my point which for some reason I get so much satisfaction out of LOL! God, as I am typing this comment I am just realizing how much of an a-- I am on this forum....still gonna post it....

Overall, I am saying that we shouldn't even think of smoking being at all similar to vaping. There is just no point because there is no established way to compare them. Even if you were to get an exact breakdown of exactly how vapor is absorbed in the body compared to smoking there would still be way to many variables from person to person to make a statement like that.

Find what satisfies you and keep on keeping on

 

[pcrdude]

Well that's a different story. If someone doesn't "want" to quit then gimmicks aren't going to satisfy. But having the right amount of nic strength AND enjoying the flavor of the eliquid they're using will go a long way to helping a user's thinking change. People will form new habits for something they like.

When I started vaping in Jan 2013, I had no intention of quitting smoking, didn't want to quit smoking, and liked smoking (health issues be damned).

The day I started vaping, I had my last cigarette, and still haven't had one to this day.

I have no intention of quitting vaping, I don't want to quit vaping, and I like vaping (health issues unknown).