The vapor image problem - "eCigarettes"

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kristin

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One more thing, most of these long time anti-smoking organizations have moved from a philosophy of helping smokers quit, into more of a war on anyone who uses nicotine. I don't think that many of them are our friends anymore, and certainly not when it comes to supporting something that has the word cigarette right in the name.

You're kidding yourself if you think the opposition has anything to do with the name. Their biggest objection is that it "looks like smoking" and therefore counters their denormalization campaign against smokers. No matter what you call it, it still "looks like smoking."

The second biggest objection is that it "reinforces (or supports) the addiction" rather than giving smokers only the choice of "quit or die." No matter what you call it, unless you remove the nicotine and regulate it as a nicotine cessation device rather than a smoking alternative, they will object.

Even the groups who object due to concerns about the unknown, long-term health effects and do not have financial conflict of interest are largely influenced by the prevailing theory (backed with junk science put out by those who DO have the financial interest) that ALL tobacco use (including e-cigarettes) is hazardous and any addiction must be "cured."

Just for an alternative view -

A lot of people like to blame "they" for everything. "They" can be big Pharma, the "government" (nevermind that's us), Obama and friends (if you are far right), the Koch brothers, lobbyists, etc, if you are a liberal, and on and on.

While there is certainly a bit of truth in all charges, there are less insidious ones too. Some groups are just being cautious. The safety of vaporized nicotine blasting into your lungs and bronchial passages all day has never been tested in a long term (at least two or three decades) study obviously. Its certainly not out of the question that in 20 years ecigs will be come a disaster product, actually worse than the one they replaced (smoked tobacco).

Well, I responded somewhat to this in my comment above. But wanted to add that the "caution" reserved for e-cigarettes seems to be outstanding compared to their "caution" regarding pharmaceutical products like Chantix. That product has been undeniably shown to be harmful to many smokers in the SHORT term, yet it is still considered a "better alternative" (reasonable risk) compared to continuing to smoke. Why is the same standard not applied to e-cigarettes, which have had no serious adverse events reported, even though they have been on the market during the same time period as Chantix?

When you consider that double standard, you can see that there really is no altruistic "caution" on their part.
 
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stevejo

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Well put Milhaus and Vocalek!

Too many times regulatory bodies - governments, legistators, employers, business owners, etc - take 'smoking' as 'tobacco-ing'. A previous employer of mine had banned snus in the workplace because 'it wasn't fair to the smokers, and besides, it's all tobacco and bad for you.' misinformation like this leads to serious uphill struggles with harm reduction strategies.

It's all a matter of PR. An employer that would ban dissolvables and snus would more than likely applaud an employee using pharmacalogical lozenges for 'trying to quit.'

Most of it revolves back to the ingrained cultural stigma that 'all tobacco is bad' or 'th only good tobacco is no tobacco.' I recall vivid memories of my childhood health classes showing rotted lips along with blackened lungs (right before I snuck out at lunch for a smoke, ironically) as if they were one in the same problem. My generation (the current thirty-somethings) wasn't taught that smoking was bad, we were taught that tobacco and nicotine were bad. It's a bad situation that seems to get worse and worse as generations go by (gah I sound like my father!). A 20-yr old co-worker (smoker) asked me about my PV the other day and dismissed it with 'it's nice, but I'll stick to real cigarettes instead of fake ones.'

Until we change this general attitude of people, we will never gain widespread acceptance of our habit/hobby. I do not know what the large-scale, long-term solution is, however I do know that changing minds one at a time can and does work.

Sorry for the rant, but I guess the point is that if we continue to do what we do, and spread this as a movement of the vapers, we will continue to gain ground. Mass media acceptance is helpful, and we have seen more and more of that the last year.

CASAA and other organizations like it are also a large part of our future success -- many thanks to Vocalek and all those that contribute and support!
 

my2heartboys

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Ok, a lot of what I have read here on this thread makes sense and I have heard it (and in some cases repeated it myself) before. I just have one question for the "anti addiction" zealots.....Whether it is caffeine, a candy bar, reading a particular type of book (me it would be sci fi or medical thrillers), roller coasters, or any of the hundreds of other things that can become addictions.....do the hundreds of thousands of people that are addicted to these or any of a hundred other things that one can become addicted to need to be cured from these addictions as well? Are all addictions evil...and given human nature there are plenty of things to become addicted to in this world.

Anne---who hopes this sounds somewhat intelligent given the amount of brain fog I am trying to work through.
 

rothenbj

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Ok, a lot of what I have read here on this thread makes sense and I have heard it (and in some cases repeated it myself) before. I just have one question for the "anti addiction" zealots.....Whether it is caffeine, a candy bar, reading a particular type of book (me it would be sci fi or medical thrillers), roller coasters, or any of the hundreds of other things that can become addictions.....do the hundreds of thousands of people that are addicted to these or any of a hundred other things that one can become addicted to need to be cured from these addictions as well? Are all addictions evil...and given human nature there are plenty of things to become addicted to in this world.

Anne---who hopes this sounds somewhat intelligent given the amount of brain fog I am trying to work through.

Anne, we as people have a tendency to become addicted to what we enjoy doing. They had the Philadelphia marathon last week. A 40 year old and 20 year old both died of apparent heart attacks. How old was Jim Fixx, somewhere around 50? Everything you do carries some level of risk. Is it worse to smoke a pack of cigarettes as an office worker in Mayberry USA or be a non-smoker living in the heart of NYC with the level of pollution that such a compacted environment creates.

The only addictions that really need to be eliminated are those that Big Pharma can create a treatment for. You have to admit, they were pretty slick in creating the nicotine addiction disease, then turning around and treating it with,,,, well, really expensive nicotine.
 

Ande

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Most of it revolves back to the ingrained cultural stigma that 'all tobacco is bad' or 'th only good tobacco is no tobacco.'

It's interesting to note that this stigma, while extremely pervasive, is a fairly recent phenomenon. Smoking wasn't really "bad behaviour" until 40-50 years ago, and has only "become" extremely badly-looked on in the last 20 or so.

And this didn't happen by accident. The denormalization of smoking has been accomplished intentionally.

And if you look around, those who lead the accomplishment were well paid for doing so.

There's no caution with people's health going on here. It's just business as usual.

Best,
Ande
 

Vocalek

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Anne, we as people have a tendency to become addicted to what we enjoy doing. They had the Philadelphia marathon last week. A 40 year old and 20 year old both died of apparent heart attacks. How old was Jim Fixx, somewhere around 50? Everything you do carries some level of risk. Is it worse to smoke a pack of cigarettes as an office worker in Mayberry USA or be a non-smoker living in the heart of NYC with the level of pollution that such a compacted environment creates.

The only addictions that really need to be eliminated are those that Big Pharma can create a treatment for. You have to admit, they were pretty slick in creating the nicotine addiction disease, then turning around and treating it with,,,, well, really expensive nicotine.

To give an example, GlaxoSmithKline's 4 mg dissolvable nicotine "lozenges" cost $42.00 for 72 - 58 cents each. The Star Scientific 4 mg dissolvable Stonewall "orbs" cost $3.65 for 20 - 18 cents each.

And think about the fact that US smokers tend to earn less than the average wage. An upfront cost of $42 might be beyond the reach of some folks' available spending money. And when you consider that 20 orbs or lozenges might replace two packs of cigarettes, you have a savings if you switch to Stonewalls (equivalent to paying $1.80 / pack) and might pay the same or more than the cost of two packs of cigarettes for 20 Nicorette lozenges (equivalent to paying $5.80 / pack). It depends on the cost for a pack where you live. In New York, either alternative is going to cost less than smoking. In Virginia, a pack of smokes may cost less than the 10 Nicorette lozenges option.
 

my2heartboys

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Precisely my point....and the same point that needs to be made to the anti addiction zealots out there. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING can become an addiction---including running marathons. As to the level of risk---well, even crawling out of bed in the morning can be a risk......

Anne

Anne, we as people have a tendency to become addicted to what we enjoy doing. They had the Philadelphia marathon last week. A 40 year old and 20 year old both died of apparent heart attacks. How old was Jim Fixx, somewhere around 50? Everything you do carries some level of risk. Is it worse to smoke a pack of cigarettes as an office worker in Mayberry USA or be a non-smoker living in the heart of NYC with the level of pollution that such a compacted environment creates.

The only addictions that really need to be eliminated are those that Big Pharma can create a treatment for. You have to admit, they were pretty slick in creating the nicotine addiction disease, then turning around and treating it with,,,, well, really expensive nicotine.
 

rothenbj

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Precisely my point....and the same point that needs to be made to the anti addiction zealots out there. ANYTHING and EVERYTHING can become an addiction---including running marathons. As to the level of risk---well, even crawling out of bed in the morning can be a risk......

Anne

I hear ya there. If I had stayed in bed today I'd feel great now. Instead 4.5 hours of yard work and I'm sore and worn out. God made, with a purpose, getting old painful - to make the thought of dying much less so.
 

rothenbj

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I just had to bring this over from that message board, you know the one that says it's quit smoking but controlled by the lunatic fringe-

a huge part of the smoking addiction is the "rituals", as well as procuring the paraphernalia and the time wasted obsessing and actually "using"....as well as STILL enslaved--puffing the nicotine.

True freedom from the addiction to smoking is to cease "puffing the nicotine" as well as ceasing the nicotine and ceasing the puffing....

Get ride of all THAT and you can begin to truly walk in the freedom of the quit...."one day at a time" NOT ONE PUFF.....will put you behind the above insanity and into living life on life's terms—addiction-free....Now I know some of you e-smokers here SAY you are trying to get off of it, however with no definitive "end" there really isn't an "end" and your body still has the drug in it that it continually craves and also your body will forever crave the FULL amount of nicotine—putting you in continual withdrawal....I did not make up the laws of addiction—free yourselves asap from the puffing of the nicotine and you can truly be free and truly quit....
emphasis mine

So you see, in their minds we are lowly addicts because we're still puffing of the nicotine
 

Vocalek

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I remember being "truly free" and "truly quit." After 6 months I decided that if this was what I was going to feel like the rest of my life, I needed to be put out of my misery. Instead of shooting myself, I went back to smoking. Now, I am not smoking and have no urges to shoot myself. But according to the "laws of addiction", I'm supposed to feel ashamed of this.

Sorry...
 

Nicko

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I remember being "truly free" and "truly quit." After 6 months I decided that if this was what I was going to feel like the rest of my life, I needed to be put out of my misery. Instead of shooting myself, I went back to smoking. Now, I am not smoking and have no urges to shoot myself. But according to the "laws of addiction", I'm supposed to feel ashamed of this.

Sorry...

I know just how you feel. It's pure hell for me too. I'm fairly sure the ANTZ get some kind of sadistic pleasure from knowing former smokers are suffering like that. As far as they are concerned, that's exactly what we deserve.
 

Ande

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I remember being "truly free" and "truly quit." After 6 months I decided that if this was what I was going to feel like the rest of my life, I needed to be put out of my misery. Instead of shooting myself, I went back to smoking. Now, I am not smoking and have no urges to shoot myself. But according to the "laws of addiction", I'm supposed to feel ashamed of this.

Sorry...

Feel ya.

I was "truly free" for nearly a year. Free from things like enjoying my job (it took so much longer to do the academic stuff!), free from enjoying social situations (too .....y; me, not them), free from sleeping well at night, free from not wanting to cry all the time.

It was that time that I realized smoking IS a choice. I chose to start smoking again, to use tobacco, knowing it would probably shorten my life. I prefered that to not using it, knowing that it would lengthen my life, which is the last thing I wanted at that point.

Between those options, I chose to smoke.

But the joke was on me- there's a third option. Use tobacco/nicotine in a much safer way, lengthen your life AND enjoy it.

Best,
Ande
 

vaporbird

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I can't disagree with your idea on homebrew kitchens. We certainly do need consumer based regulation to set some standards for the production e-liquid. I would guess it would put some small time operations out of business but so be it. If they don't have enough resources to guarantee the safety of there product they shouldn't be in business. In the long run if it's not us it's going to be the FDA.

Good regulation need not put home operations out of business. I think there are only a few issues that matter when it comes to home production:

* Nicotine is toxic in high doses
* Some flavors may turn in to "bad" things when vaped (popcorn lung? we need studies of course!)
* exploding batteries?

But I think that if a home brew operation is using pre-mixed, say 36mg fluid, from an accredited company, and flavors on some kind of "safe" list they should be exempt from regulation.

If they want to mix pure nicotine, that's another story, getting the "dose" right should not be left to amateurs, and we should have laws that asure us that if it says "6mg" or "26mg" it really is that level of nic.

There have been no horrible mishaps so far, but if one happens it will be because some idiot sends out something with far too much nic. or possibly someone gets sick from using some really odd kind of flavor.

PS. I'm about as liberal as they come, I don't think this issue is left/right it's cultural. People have been trained to hate activities that look like smoking, and I really think that's a shame if there is a safe way to have those activities.

I really hope e-cigs catch on and become HUGE.

The real reason the alphabet organizations don't like it is because it's too much fun. Quitting smoking is supposed to be some kind of punishment for your bad ways, if it's fun it messes with their sense of karma. And frankly I love it.
 
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