The "VG Theory"

[GoodNews!]

I mean, I could be saying all these same things about Snooki's Snooki, but I'd rather vape.

But ya know, science sounds funny to people who don't really understand it. But science isn't there to be made fun of all the time, it's there for educated people to theorize and help each other prove certain theories right or totally wrong with good source material.

And I've already explained what I believe popping sounds are, and while I entertain the possibility that it is indeed the sound of splaying silica and/or polyfil, I think the flavor I'm getting is more sourced from a lot of air exposure to both the coils and wicks. That much is proven, because many users on this thread have said that popping stops with flooding, but what I'm out to learn is if, with more of an air-exposure rate, if any sort of chemicals from Kanthal are feeding off into my taste buds in a weird way, and/or are coating the silica particles, which are proven without reasonable doubt to be in vapor (check the silica thread and it's scientific photos of the vapor from various devices), and causing a sort of "hybrid" kanthal/silica taste that, in effect, is very alike to Sulphur, but a lot more insulation-like to my tongue.

Just about the only fact I would need to know, is that if Kanthal, at vaping temperatures (and through it's process of oxidation or whatever), gives off, or coats itself, with any form of gunk, debris, or metallic chemicals - or even just a coating of slightly cooked PG, VG, or flavors. If it can do this, I would theorize it can coat any physical matter in our vapor, especially heat resistant matter. For those wondering how this effect is reduced in Kanthal, it is reduced by A. Flooding your device with VG. or B. Building a coil to distribute heat perfectly and evenly, which, by my own tests, reduces the amount of silica, hemp, or cotton particles in our vape, because a properly built coil draws juice inside own it's own methods, and reduces the air-to-wick exposure rate that's resultant in these particles being pressured by heat waves and, though not melted or combusted, simply "thrown" into our vapor, because silica particles themselves are extremely brittle, and break off with the slightest too much air-to-heat exposure or unnaturally strong draw. Touch some silica and see if it don't coat your fingertips under direct lighting.

Anyone want to chime in with some facts? I'd love to hear.

 

[440BB]

And studies do prove that silica particles are in our vapor, I've seen the studies and the microscopic, photo-proved results.

Could you provide a link to these studies? I would like to see them for myself.

 

[PLANofMAN]

Ya'll got to remember, I started vaping in 2009.

If it's true that devices were made entirely different back then (say, even in disposables, if the coils were higher ohms and built to be tighter wrapped than coils now, or something), then that's what I'm chasing.

E-cig devices of today, and e-cig devices of back then, are ENTIRELY different worlds. I like the old-school, huge flavor, nicotine absorption, no throat hit result of all those kits back in the day.

I started vaping in 2005-2006 When my cousin brought back e-cigs he'd picked up while deployed in Germany, so I started vaping about 7 or 8 years ago. They were pretty crappy back then. The first big improvement I can remember is when the tobacco e-juice improved a year or two later and they started selling e-cigs in the U.S. I don't claim to have vaped for 7 years, because I haven't. But I certainly started about 7 years ago.

This flavor. RY4. If that is what you remember and love about vaping, go buy some and quit giving us a hard time. That and menthol used to be the only options out there for anyone. It's probably that dream flavor you are looking for.

Here's the link. https://usa.janty.com/index.php?pag...egory_id=133&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=177

I'm not the only old time vapor on this forum. We don't bring it up often, and only in special circumstances. This being one such.

That fantasy of perfect vapes that you had in the past? It didn't exist for most of us. I considered e-cigs to be a gimmick until I found something better than cig-a-likes.

Could you provide a link to these studies? I would like to see them for myself.

He's talking about this thread.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ks.html?highlight=the+dangers+of+silica+wicks
Since there's a lot of BS in that thread, I post the relevent bits here.
Warning! Good News! sized wall of text incoming:

OK. Here's my

There really aren't many things about an e-cig that shouldn't be of concern, and that concern increases as one advances into Mods... safe Batteries, safe Chargers, safe E-Liquids, safe Wicks, safe E-Liquid Tanks, safe Coil materials, safe... everything. I am absolutely not an alarmist, and I certainly don't say this to scare you (or anyone else), but the Safety Factor is of great concern to me. ECF has been a great resource of information, and I have researched every area of concern to me, and start new research every time I hear of something new to me. Many of those concerns have been debunked, and others have been minimized by finding the Safest Alternatives I could find. Silica Shards are nothing new to me.

I see nothing wrong with Litcube wanting to investigate, and either confirm or dispel this Silica Wick concern to his satisfaction. I see nothing wrong with his stated motives. I actually applaud him, and anyone else who wants to do a Scientific Study. But there are right ways and wrong ways to do it. A good Scientist sets a thesis (like Silica Wicks can be Harmful), and then sets out to disprove it, by any and all means possible. If he/she can't disprove it, then it would be prudent to initiate further study into how any harm could be minimized. Another excellent Scientific Practice is that the same study is repeated by many Scientists, and possibly (hopefully) Scientists from various Disciplines, to take into account the various methods (and budgets) that may be available to some and not others. So while one particular Scientist may reach a conclusion, it doesn't become Gospel until that same conclusion has been reached throughout the Scientific Community. All done by people who fully understand what they're working with, in this case, e-cigs; the actual e-cig products and various designs, the actual use of e-cigs, and the practices of e-cigs users, under actual proper use conditions. While we wait...

To me, the Safety Factor where Silica Wicks are concerned is actually how bad the Silica Shards might get when the Wick gets too Dry. A Wet Silica Wick will most likely not produce Shards, but the Dry Burn probably will. The majority of E-Liquid Storage Systems do not allow one to see how much E-Liquid remains available to the Atomizer, which IMO greatly increases the likelihood of a Dry Silica Wick, and therefore, a Dry Burn that is inhaled. This is why I insist on having a Clear Tank that I can easily see through. I currently use the Vivi Nova.

Before anyone decides to attack me, let me say that I fully understand that as the E-Liquid supply runs out, the e-cig user is going to notice the Vapor and/or Flavor is fading. And understand this. When the Wick is soaked, the Coil cannot get hot enough to glow red, but as the Wick starts to get Dryer, either from the Supply running out, or from the Wick not being able to keep up with the user, as it continues, the Coil is going to start getting hotter and hotter in the middle, and as the E-Liquid Supply continues to be diminished, it will start glowing red in larger and larger proportions, potentially scorching the Silica Wick. Will the user notice the diminished performance before this happens? Can any of you say, absolutely, every time, 100% of the time? I really don't think you can.

So Litcube, do your study, but do it well, and don't disappoint us. It has been pointed out that there are different Wicking Configurations between the available designs that incorporate Silica Wicks, and while it's important to study the Wet Wick, I think it's just as important to study the entire range of wicking situations, from Fully Wet, to Fully Dry, with small steps in between, and to learn at what point any Shards begin to be delivered into the Vapor Stream, if at all. And... if you're going to do it at all, then do it with as many Atomizer designs as possible, including Cartomizers of various designs, and the various Tank designs that use Silica Wicks, like the Vivi Nova, and others. Big Wicks (2-3mm diameters), Medium Wicks (1-2mm diameters), Skinny Wicks (less than or equal to 1mm diameters), Multiple Stand Wicks, in any and all Silica Wick compositions (there can't be only one type of Silica Wick on the market). Then, it would have to be considered that any Shards found coming from Cartomizers will have to be further studied to see if they are emitted from the Wick, or maybe the Fiberglass Tube (in some designs) that covers and feeds the Coil, or the Filler Materials.

I have no doubt that you can create a situation where Shards can be released. It's already been done. But how does that relate to actual e-cig use?, in current Atomizer designs?, under normal usage situations? If it relates, then yet another area of study is required. It's also already been asked (considering the possibility that any Shards are released as related to e-cig use) if this would actually be enough to cause a problem, and if so, then over what kind of time frame. Yet another study. Though I'd be satisfied for the time being with an unbiased professional opinion, from someone who's an actual e-cig user, while we wait and wait for these studies.

So, if this first kind of project is too big for you (let alone the continued follow-up studies), then maybe you should accept the previously established results and pass the torch to someone else. But don't let me stop you. Do what you can to satisfy your own curiosities.

No matter what, we're better off with e-cigs than their traditional brethren. But that's me.

The wicks are not crystalline silica dust. They are definitely amorphous silica. Amorphous silica

Do they break down to crystalline silica dust in our tanks? No, extremely unlikely...

To all those who are worried that the particles they see in their e-juice is crystalline silica dust (e.g. the disappearing wick act)... In order to transform amorphous silica to crystalline silica, it requires hydrothermal conditions 300 to 500 C and incredibly high pressures of 197.38 to 947.69 standard atmosphere pressure (our tanks have 1 atm pressure ).

What are those particles? I don't know but they aren't crystalline silica dust which causes silicosis. Although silica has not been tested in e-cigs specifically, it has been extensively researched. For example, I'm a protein purification scientist and we use silica (specifically gels and column chromatography) in many of our purification techniques (as well as qualitative and quantitative analysis). It's subjected to acids like HCL, Acetic acid, methanol, high heat...etc.

Please remember that many cartomizer/atomizers have silica components and the results of the e-cig studies up to date have proved that e-mist/vaping is safe (no PAH carcinogens nor harmful heavy metals were detected). So, if you don't want to get silicosis, then take precautions if you work around sand, rocks, minerals or in brick plants where you are more likely to come in contact with crystalline silica dust.

Hey everyone I was just informed about this thread. I have done some reserch on this topic several months ago.

this is a copy paste of things I found.

--------------------

technical: Micron = µ = Micrometer = µm (different sources use these interchangeably)

To clarify

1. It is amorphous not cristalline.
2. The fibers we use are too large to inhale past the throat.
3. If you got some in your mouth you would just spit it out or swallow it.
4. Silica fiber undergo dissolution and transverse breakage due to amorphous structure.

Source: http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/toxprofiles/tp161-c2.pdf
Different studies have used different rules for counting fibers in air samples, but in general, a fiber is a particle that has a length ≥5 µm and a length:diameter ratio (aspect ratio) of ≥3:1 or ≥5:1. The WHO counts fibers as particles with lengths >5 µm, widths <3 µm, and aspect ratios ≥3:1. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) counts fibers as particles with lengths >5 µm and aspect ratios ≥3:1. The levels of synthetic vitreous fibers in air are measured by phase contrast microscopy (PCM), transmission electron microscopy (TEM), or scanning electron microscopy (SEM) (see Chapter 7 for more details). A human respirable fiber (a fiber that can be inhaled and reach the lower air-exchange portion of the respiratory tract) is usually defined as a fiber having a diameter <3 µm.

...key determinants of toxicity including:
• The amount of material deposited in the alveolar region of the lung (fibers with diameters >3 µm do not reach this region; they are deposited in the upper respiratory tract and lung conductive airways, cleared by mucociliary action to the pharynx, swallowed, and eliminated via the feces);
• The rate at which macrophages engulf and clear fibers deposited in the lower lung (human
macrophages cannot fully engulf fibers with lengths longer than about 15–20 µm); and
• The extent of movement of deposited fibers from the alveoli to the lung interstitium and the
pleural cavity (fibers with diameters >0.3–0.4 µm may move less freely into the interstitium and
pleural cavity).

Fibers that can dissolve in physiologic fluids (i.e., that are less durable) develop weak points that can facilitate (1) transverse breakage by physical forces into shorter fibers and (2) faster clearance by macrophages, compared with fibers that do not dissolve, like amphibole asbestos fibers.

Synthetic vitreous fibers differ from asbestos in two ways that may provide at least partial explanations for their lower toxicity. Because most synthetic vitreous fibers are not crystalline like asbestos, they do not split longitudinally to form thinner fibers. They also generally have markedly less biopersistence in biological tissues than asbestos fibers because they can undergo dissolution and transverse breakage

Note: I underlined the above.

I have never measured a silica fiber used in any ecig product that was smaller diameter than 8 µm, most were between 20 and 35 µm.

-------------------
From: 02-23-2013
There are two types of silica, amorphous and crystalline. The silica fiber used in ecig wicks and electrical sleeving are amorphous, this form does not break down into the very small bits that cause silicosis. Even if they were deeply respirable, the amount (volume) of these fibers needed to cause enough mechanical damage to the lungs to be noticeable is basically impossible in ecig use. The natural airway defenses to particles larger than (aerodynamic diameter)(F*ds) ~4μm is very good and you would just cough it up or digest it.

In the first test I did the average diameter of a ecig wick fiber was ~8μm with a aerodynamic diameter of 16μm under fast inhalation velocity ~5m/sec. edit: I miscalculated the aerodynamic diameter of the wet 8µm wick. The correct number is 24µm not 16µm.


Document Display | NSCEP | US EPA
Pathophysiology Treatment of Inhalation Injuries - Jacob Loke - Google Books
http://www.industrialventilation.ne...Impactor Data Reduction/Impactor_Park (1).pdf
What are the Effects of Dust on the Lungs? : OSH Answers
How Do Particulates Enter the Respiratory System? : OSH Answers
http://www.aeronautics.nasa.gov/pdf...ective_tile_care_and_handling_precautions.pdf
http://www.specialtygaskets.com/files/silicacloth-12.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1567293/pdf/envhper00401-0085.pdf


Next day edit: 02-24-2013
I just spent the afternoon looking at some samples of silica wicks donated from friends and vivi novas and a few venders. All were in the 20-32μm diameter range. Seems like the really small ones (~8μm) have gone out of fashion. I'll post some pics in a bit. (see pics in next post)

This is from: 11-24-2012 When I did some collection tests forcing wicks to shed.
Somewhat outdated as of 3/3/13 (I've learned a lot more about this topic since I wrote this)

I've come to my conclusion. The answer is... It depends. There are so many variables a conclusive answer is impossible. There are some guide-lines that I have found. Before I describe the commons there are some basics people should know. Synthetic Silica Fiber is not the same as Silica, it is heat treated and drawn. This changes the physical properties of the material. In it's crystalline state silica fractures into very small bits that can be easily inhaled. The accumulation of this dust is what causes Silicosis. Silicosis is not a cancerous or mutagenic effect but more like scaring. It is an accumulation over a long time of dust that clogs and damages the lungs.

Synthetic Silica Fiber does not become a powder that would be easily inhaled into the lungs. The fiber segments that were recovered from airborne accumulation were too large to make it past the pre lung filtration (Cilia). Meaning they will irritate the throat and be coughed or flushed out. This is good, if you have a fiber wick that is shedding you will know it rather quickly. I recommend tossing it out if this happens.

The test I devised was rather simple I used a compressor at 2, 3, and 5 psi to force air into a rebuildable Atty through the air-hole and collected the vapor in a balloon. After each sample was taken the balloon was clamped off to allow settling. After an hour the balloon was slowly deflated and then I took 10mL of denatured alcohol and flushed out the balloon (I washed the balloons out before starting) the alcohol was then evaporated off in a glass dish leaving a sample.

Today edit: Understand that I was forcing the wick to shed using high airflow rates that no person would likely produce. Even with this forced shedding, the amount of shed fibers was very very low.

The testing I did was interesting and a bit irritating, literally. I found that if you abuse a wick by using high temperatures (+5v at 2.7Ohms or 9.26W) the breakage was more pronounced. This is clearly because of the more energetic expansion of the liquid into vapor. More particles were ejected into the airstream the higher the voltage became. I freely admit these results are limited to the silica fiber wicks I purchased but the concept should remain constant within minor variations. The airflow pressure was not as much a factor as I thought other than the obvious more is more.

I leave it to you to decide what is right for you. Personally I've re-wicked all my stuff with cotton. Not for safety reasons but I like the sensation it provides and the cost (7$ in organic unbleached yarn = wicks until the end of time)

---------------------------
From: 02-24-2013
I got bored today and mesured the diameter of some silica wicks I gathered.

They were all between 20 and 32 micron, too large to inhale deeply.

These pics are the small versions. I scanned the fibers at 6400 PPI ie 1 pixel = 3.96875 micron. If you zoom in to pixel depth you can calculate the diameter by counting the pixels. The larger files are here: http://s963.beta.photobucket.com/user/revboden/library/silica fiber


Edit: Gahhh!!! I can't get photobucket to stop resizing the images. The originals are about 4 times the size photobucket shows

--------------------

To put it simply the aerodynamic diameter of a the (wet or dry) silica fiber we use is too large to reach deep enough into the lungs to do damage. If It does get into the upper airways it will be broken into smaller bits by the movement of the cilia and ejected from the body through the digestive tract.

To help you visualize the size difference between the largest size that is respirable and the size of the fibers we use:

View attachment 183440

 

[TheJakeBailey]

But ya know, science sounds funny to people who don't really understand it. But science isn't there to be made fun of all the time, it's there for educated people to theorize and help each other prove certain theories right or totally wrong with good source material.

And I've already explained what I believe popping sounds are, and while I entertain the possibility that it is indeed the sound of splaying silica and/or polyfil, I think the flavor I'm getting is more sourced from a lot of air exposure to both the coils and wicks. That much is proven, because many users on this thread have said that popping stops with flooding, but what I'm out to learn is if, with more of an air-exposure rate, if any sort of chemicals from Kanthal are feeding off into my taste buds in a weird way, and/or are coating the silica particles, which are proven without reasonable doubt to be in vapor (check the silica thread and it's scientific photos of the vapor from various devices), and causing a sort of "hybrid" kanthal/silica taste that, in effect, is very alike to Sulphur, but a lot more insulation-like to my tongue.

Just about the only fact I would need to know, is that if Kanthal, at vaping temperatures (and through it's process of oxidation or whatever), gives off, or coats itself, with any form of gunk, debris, or metallic chemicals - or even just a coating of slightly cooked PG, VG, or flavors. If it can do this, I would theorize it can coat any physical matter in our vapor, especially heat resistant matter. For those wondering how this effect is reduced in Kanthal, it is reduced by A. Flooding your device with VG. or B. Building a coil to distribute heat perfectly and evenly, which, by my own tests, reduces the amount of silica, hemp, or cotton particles in our vape, because a properly built coil draws juice inside own it's own methods, and reduces the air-to-wick exposure rate that's resultant in these particles being pressured by heat waves and, though not melted or combusted, simply "thrown" into our vapor, because silica particles themselves are extremely brittle, and break off with the slightest too much air-to-heat exposure or unnaturally strong draw. Touch some silica and see if it don't coat your fingertips under direct lighting.

Anyone want to chime in with some facts? I'd love to hear.

I'm going to be as PC about this as humanly possible.

One of the reasons you get such an incredibly negative response is your approach. You state that it's all about science and facts, but don't actually understand the science, or provide any facts. You use phrases like "for some unknown reason," "It's a mystery why," in the same sentences as "scientifically proven." If it was scientifically proven, it wouldn't be a mystery. You can't straight up say you know the answer, and then ask people to prove your answer is right, or flat out shoot them down if they think you are wrong, with nothing to "scientifically" base either one on.

You seem to want to get into vaping at a microscopic level, but haven't even achieved what the vast majority of us have with very little effort. A functional, and satisfying (at least somewhat) vape experience.

Take some time away, and do some actual research. Google is a wonderful tool. Come back with some actual facts, based on some actual research, and then provide a real hypothesis. What you are doing now is like taking pot shots in the dark and hoping to hit something, and we are the collateral damage.

Many people here have tried to help you with one problem, but one has become a million, and I just don't know if anyone can tackle that for you.

 

[PLANofMAN]

I just don't know if anyone can tackle that for you.

I did. Enough scientific facts to choke a horse (see my edit above).
...Well, about Silica anyways. There's some things that I just get tired of explaining.

 

[Ref Minor]

Have you tried patches?

 

[TheJakeBailey]

I did. Enough scientific facts to choke a horse (see my edit above).
...Well, about Silica anyways. There's some things that I just get tired of explaining.

Oh he wont read all of that. Way to long... (rimshot)

I designate planofman as officially consultant to GoodNews. All in favor, say "I." The measure has passed. So it is written, so let it be done.

you only have 999,999 more problems to solve!

 

[PLANofMAN]

Have you tried patches?

I have. They didn't taste very good and had a tendency to stick to the roof of my mouth.
Why do you ask?

I designate planofman as officially consultant to GoodNews. All in favor, say "I." The measure has passed. So it is written, so let it be done.

you only have 999,999 more problems to solve!

Since I'm now in charge, I'm delegating those 999,999 problems to you. I want to see a progress report in my inbox next Monday.

I always knew those leadership classes would come in handy someday.

 

[WattWick]

I second the notion to designate PLANofMAN as official consultant.

Edit: Removed a little Discworld reference that may have been taken the wrong way.

 

[PLANofMAN]

I second the notion to designate PLANofMAN as official consultant.

Another supporter! Excellent. You can be TheJakeBailey's assistant.

 

[TheJakeBailey]

Awww nuts. . Sigh... It's gonna be a long weekend.

 

[catalinaflyer]

Beautiful devices, but I see no Kayfun (I got mine recently, and I have admit that I have an unhealthy obsession with it )

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk

My Kayfun got left at home (start the firing squad), I was only planning on being away for 10 to 14 days then 5 days into this assignment I was extended to 60 with a 75 cap.

Wife is preparing a care package to ship to me because I also wasn't planning on going north of the 63rd parallel north 5 to 6 times a week and as such didn't bring my arctic survival gear.

 

[Diogenes]

A) the popping is Not the filler, just the juice/coil action
B) You missed a step on Flooding - remove and lightly blow out - wipe with tissue.
Also remove any liquid on the battery connection.
You should then be able to get a full flavor - full vapor response.
Personally I like Boge XL 2 hole Cartos, but everyone has their choices.
Still, the killer 705 is much more friendly for wicking.

I'm actually loving the Boge XL cartos right now, too. Loaded one up in a cheap carto tank, filled with White Zenberry, and the thing hits like a champ.

 

[Thrasher]

I have a hard time digesting the claims as well, didnt know smoketech even made 4.8 ohm triple punched cartos or is that just your analytical mind mixing up basic terminology as Volts and ohms? and you cant understand why we dont trust the rest of your conclusions, who knows what your telling us as compared to what you think your telling us.

I believe it's faulty, because even when not flooded (and making popping and cracking noises out the wazoo - which I seriously think it's from the polyfil because it's so loud) it produces not much vapor at even 4.8ohms!

you read one post then take that as absolute irrefutable scientific fact. silica particles cannot travel through the solid wick into the vapor stream pictures of a wick laying on a microscope slide and some unknown petri dish prove nothing. noone has built any scientific testing method for proving this is actually being inhaled.

(and NO a couple of unknown pictures on ECF dont prove anything with out testing methodology being proven)


as for pictures - you dont know how to plug your phone into your pc and transfer some simple photos? once they are on the pc you just hit the Upload photos button on the post screen lol

 

[Thrasher]

oh yea and as hard as it may be to understand, in most cases if a carto ISNT popping and crackling you have issues....

but what do I know, I only actually work in a controlled lab environment, where every variable is accounted for and all testing is done very methodically with strict adherence to procedures.

 

[Diogenes]

oh yea and as hard as it may be to understand, in most cases if a carto ISNT popping and crackling you have issues....

Normally my carto doesn't pop, crack, and sizzle......when I forget to turn the battery on.

 

[Don Robertson]

I've even gotten the results in my own mouth!

That taste in the mouth has NOTHING to do with "Vaping".

Senile - but observant Old Man Don

 

[Asbestos4004]

I think everything he's stated so far makes perfect sense. There's a solid scientific explanation for every theory and claim. You're all just being a bit closed minded about it. Actually, a medical explanation might be more accurate. Either way, its as clear as pie.

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a little upset that I was never even considered for the GN consultant gig. We have good chemistry. You elected the wrong guy.

 

[Don Robertson]

Could you provide a link to these studies? I would like to see them for myself.

They are a "secret"...... beyond the pay grade of folks who actually VAPE and don't spend all of life on a perpetual voyage seeking only that which makes them feel superior. Only the elite can present facts they cannot share because were they to do so their benefactors would never again allow them to exit the padded laboratory.

Good and Senile Old Man Don........ Stop the madness!

 

[TheSystemHasFailed]

Hey mods, is 53 deleted posts a record for a thread this old?
I am very curious about this...thank you!