The whole e-cig ban thing...help me understand

[cloudkat]

What EXACTLY is it that the FDA/WHO/BT /etc… are so intent on controlling/banning?
Is it the nicotine? Or is it the other chemicals in the vapor? Or is it all just simply an excuse to regulate the use of PVs so that they can make money on the sale of them?

Here is why I ask;
A lot (most) of the threads and discussions here talk solely about the FDA/WHO’s problem with nicotine and the use of e-cigs as a NRT.
Other threads talk about the findings of the FDA/WHO testing that show other chemicals in the vapor and/or the lack of knowledge about exactly what is in the vapor and in what amounts.

The way I see it is that if the concern is over just the nicotine, at worst all that would happen is that the sale of nic-juice would become illegal unless you had a prescription.
I say this because of the whole ......... thing. MJ is illegal unless you have a prescription, but you can still sell/buy everything you need to use it. All the paraphernalia is widely available at any smoke shop/head shop under the guise of “tobacco products”.
This would lead one to believe that while nic-juice may get banned, the “paraphernalia” (ie: PVs, batteries, attys, carts, PG, VG, flavors, etc..) would still be readily available and still for sale. They would just have to re-classify these products as simply a “flavored vape product” (or something along those lines).
Speaking solely for myself, I would still vape even if there was no nic at all in my juice. I only vape at about 11-18mg anyways. I just LOVE the flavors. So if nic-juice gets banned, and I can not work my way into getting a prescription, I would still continue to vape.

On the other hand, if the main concern is over what other chemicals are in the vapor, or what it may/may not do to our bodies, now we may have a problem. But in the long run this could be a good thing.
WAIT…before you start flaming me, let me explain why I say that.
If there is any question about what is going into our bodies, or what effect it may have on us, that is a valid concern. One that we ALL should actually want resolved. If this means that we get our PVs banned, then so be it. I will just simply stock up on supplies before a ban goes into effect and hope that my supply of batteries and attys will last me until a decision is made one way or the other. The rest of the stuff I would need I can buy at other places under the pretense of something else. (ie: PG, VG, flavor, cart filling, EM, PGA, etc..) So I can still vape while a decision is made.
If the testing shows that vaping is ok for us, it will be a GOOD thing, because now our nic-juice will be of a much higher quality because of the regulation by the FDA. We will no longer have to worry about “Joe-Bob” selling us nic-juice he whipped up in his home blender. If the testing shows that the chemicals in vapor are bad for me in some way, either short or long term, then I want to know that as well. That way I can make an informed decision on which is worse for me, regular cigs or e-cigs.
Either way the testing goes, it is a win-win situation.
I also am aware that this testing could, and probably will, take years to complete. But, again speaking just my opinion, that is ok. I look at this as not something that is only effecting ME right now, but this is something that could potentially effect my kids, grand-kids, etc..
If I have to loose my ability to vape so that future generations can either vape safely instead of smoke cigarettes, or not have a dangerous tool available to them by banning it, well that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.

If all of this is simply because they want the power to make money off of these things, well, crap. That just sucks. But you know something? If it happens, I will still vape.
Why? Because the only 2 things that they can really control the prices on are the PV (whole and parts) and the nic-juice. And really, the only thing I we would really have to buy is the attys because we can use battery mods if the batteries become too expensive. Everything else is something that they can not control the price or distribution of.

Don’t take me wrong on any of this. Don’t mistake this post to mean that I am going to lay down and let myself be raped by these idiots. I will fight this thing. I have signed the petitions and sent the emails. And I will continue to do so.
This post is more to try and get help clarifying some things in my understanding of what is going on, because in reading some of the stuff that is being posted, some people are acting like it is the end of the world or something. So I just want to make sure that I am not missing something or not looking at this in the right way.

If we fight this off, GREAT !!! WE WIN !!
If not, oh well, we tried. But we can still vape on. Just maybe without nic-juice.

 

[Windsage]

What all of these groups really hate is anything that looks even remotely like the activity of smoking. Keep in mind these are zealots. Reason has left the building.

This is why they have assailed such things as bubblegum cigars, candy cigs, and the little plastic bubble blowing pipes. If they could make it a crime to chew on the end of a pencil, they would do it.

 

[BCB]

The FDA is already seizing e-cigs at customs as drug-delivery devices. These are e-cigs with no juice in them. You may have had a sufficient heads-up to stock up prior to the ban but others haven't the time or money to do so. It has only been 2 months since I ever even HEARD of e-cigarettes. Smokers are justifiable to be afraid of having this safe alternative taken from us because we will probably wind up smoking again. And smokers who haven't been introduced to e-cigs will be denied their chance.

 

[Idaho Ron]

We have a full press court from the liberal nannys to tell us what is best for us.

 

[nubee]

The FDA is already seizing e-cigs at customs as drug-delivery devices. These are e-cigs with no juice in them. You may have had a sufficient heads-up to stock up prior to the ban but others haven't the time or money to do so. It has only been 2 months since I ever even HEARD of e-cigarettes. Smokers are justifiable to be afraid of having this safe alternative taken from us because we will probably wind up smoking again. And smokers who haven't been introduced to e-cigs will be denied their chance.

So far, the bans have excluded internet purchases and many shops now sell state side built devices and USA juice so I think you'll have time to pace yourself on stocking up.

 

[cloudkat]

What all of these groups really hate is anything that looks even remotely like the activity of smoking. Keep in mind these are zealots. Reason has left the building.

This is why they have assailed such things as bubblegum cigars, candy cigs, and the little plastic bubble blowing pipes. If they could make it a crime to chew on the end of a pencil, they would do it.

I agree with you to a point. But there has to be more behind it than just the fact that vaping simulates smoking. That is why they are using the nicotine and ather chemical arguments.

 

[kristin]

Please excuse the interruption - IMPORTANT!! http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-sign-petition-raise-awareness-ecig-bans.html

 

[whiskey]

The FDA is already seizing e-cigs at customs as drug-delivery devices. These are e-cigs with no juice in them. You may have had a sufficient heads-up to stock up prior to the ban but others haven't the time or money to do so. It has only been 2 months since I ever even HEARD of e-cigarettes. Smokers are justifiable to be afraid of having this safe alternative taken from us because we will probably wind up smoking again. And smokers who haven't been introduced to e-cigs will be denied their chance.

Where have you heard of these Seizures happening?

 

[cloudkat]

So far, the bans have excluded internet purchases and many shops now sell state side built devices and USA juice so I think you'll have time to pace yourself on stocking up.

Not only that, but also remember that even the stuff that was confiscated is only temporary. Kind of like how law enforcement groups grab a quick warrant to raid someones house or business, only to have the person or company fight it in court and win. These groups know that they can only hold this stuff temporarily, but that gives them time to put other things in motion or create the press and attention that they need to gather others to their cause.

Even though these shipments have been held up, until the federal court decrees that PVs ARE a drug delivery system, there is no way that these shipments can be held indefinitely.
Even if the federal court does decide to call a PV a drug delivery system (because of the nicotine) all that will happen is you will no longer be able to buy a "nicotine inhaler", it will now be called a "flavored vapor inhaler". Just like you can go to a smoke shop and buy a .... to smoke your "tobacco" out of or buy papers to roll your own "cigarettes" in.

 

[CES]

cloudkat- you make some good points. Testing isn't a bad thing. The issue is that regulation as a medical device would result in a de facto ban until safety and efficacy testing is COMPLETE, years and lots of dollars from now. Because the FDA is misrepresenting the data that came from their own study, the conflation of nicotine use with smoking, and all of the political and monetary considerations-we can either fight well now, or be forced to go underground or back to smoking. Neither of which are good options. I think that this has got to be better than smoking (i know i certainly feel better), and am willing to be a guinea pig. BTW, the FDA apparently considers not just the juice with nicotine, but ALL components of the e-cig as fair game.

 

[the86d]

Please excuse the interruption - IMPORTANT!! http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...on-raise-awareness-ecig-bans.html#post1323309

"Petition is not available"

 

[kristin]

What EXACTLY is it that the FDA/WHO/BT /etc… are so intent on controlling/banning?

Smokers

Is it the nicotine? Or is it the other chemicals in the vapor? Or is it all just simply an excuse to regulate the use of PVs so that they can make money on the sale of them?

All of the above - depends on which group you're talking about.

Here is why I ask;
A lot (most) of the threads and discussions here talk solely about the FDA/WHO’s problem with nicotine and the use of e-cigs as a NRT.
Other threads talk about the findings of the FDA/WHO testing that show other chemicals in the vapor and/or the lack of knowledge about exactly what is in the vapor and in what amounts.

The way I see it is that if the concern is over just the nicotine, at worst all that would happen is that the sale of nic-juice would become illegal unless you had a prescription.

The FDA wants it to be a drug delivery device because nicotine is a drug. If that is the case, all components would be subject to regulation. If that happens, they would be banned from sale for a compnay until that company shows in a peer-reviewed study that they meet FDA guidelines. That will take years.

I say this because of the whole ......... thing. MJ is illegal unless you have a prescription, but you can still sell/buy everything you need to use it. All the paraphernalia is widely available at any smoke shop/head shop under the guise of “tobacco products”.

There are laws against those, but they aren't enforced. If the local governments decided to come down on those shops, they'd be in a world of hurt.


This would lead one to believe that while nic-juice may get banned, the “paraphernalia” (ie: PVs, batteries, attys, carts, PG, VG, flavors, etc..) would still be readily available and still for sale. They would just have to re-classify these products as simply a “flavored vape product” (or something along those lines).

Wrong. They'd be more like neubulizers and inhalers for prescription medicine.

Speaking solely for myself, I would still vape even if there was no nic at all in my juice. I only vape at about 11-18mg anyways. I just LOVE the flavors. So if nic-juice gets banned, and I can not work my way into getting a prescription, I would still continue to vape.

Good luck with that.

On the other hand, if the main concern is over what other chemicals are in the vapor, or what it may/may not do to our bodies, now we may have a problem. But in the long run this could be a good thing.
WAIT…before you start flaming me, let me explain why I say that.
If there is any question about what is going into our bodies, or what effect it may have on us, that is a valid concern. One that we ALL should actually want resolved. If this means that we get our PVs banned, then so be it. I will just simply stock up on supplies before a ban goes into effect and hope that my supply of batteries and attys will last me until a decision is made one way or the other. The rest of the stuff I would need I can buy at other places under the pretense of something else. (ie: PG, VG, flavor, cart filling, EM, PGA, etc..) So I can still vape while a decision is made.

That works for you, but what about the millions of smokers who haven't even tried ecigs yet. should they be forced to keep smoking?

If the testing shows that vaping is ok for us, it will be a GOOD thing, because now our nic-juice will be of a much higher quality because of the regulation by the FDA. We will no longer have to worry about “Joe-Bob” selling us nic-juice he whipped up in his home blender. If the testing shows that the chemicals in vapor are bad for me in some way, either short or long term, then I want to know that as well. That way I can make an informed decision on which is worse for me, regular cigs or e-cigs.

They've ALREADY BEEN TESTED. The FDA and several other labs found nothing in them to indicate a danger to the public. The FDA chose to announce that their test found carcinogens and diethylene glycol, an ingredient in antifreeze. What they didn't announce is that:

“E-cigarettes use the same nicotine, with about the same level of trace contaminants as FDA approved NRT products. There are a large number of studies and reviews that demonstrate the safety of E-cigarettes in comparison with pharmaceutical NRT products and conventional cigarettes.”
(Source:

American Association of Public Health Physicians)

Either way the testing goes, it is a win-win situation.
I also am aware that this testing could, and probably will, take years to complete. But, again speaking just my opinion, that is ok. I look at this as not something that is only effecting ME right now, but this is something that could potentially effect my kids, grand-kids, etc..
If I have to loose my ability to vape so that future generations can either vape safely instead of smoke cigarettes, or not have a dangerous tool available to them by banning it, well that is a sacrifice I am willing to make.

If all of this is simply because they want the power to make money off of these things, well, crap. That just sucks. But you know something? If it happens, I will still vape.
Why? Because the only 2 things that they can really control the prices on are the PV (whole and parts) and the nic-juice. And really, the only thing I we would really have to buy is the attys because we can use battery mods if the batteries become too expensive. Everything else is something that they can not control the price or distribution of.

Don’t take me wrong on any of this. Don’t mistake this post to mean that I am going to lay down and let myself be raped by these idiots. I will fight this thing. I have signed the petitions and sent the emails. And I will continue to do so.
This post is more to try and get help clarifying some things in my understanding of what is going on, because in reading some of the stuff that is being posted, some people are acting like it is the end of the world or something. So I just want to make sure that I am not missing something or not looking at this in the right way.

If we fight this off, GREAT !!! WE WIN !!
If not, oh well, we tried. But we can still vape on. Just maybe without nic-juice.

What's the point then for millions of smokers who need the nicotine?

 

[kristin]

"Petition is not available"

It might be getting a lot of hits. I just clicked the link and it came up - please keep trying!!

 

[cloudkat]

The FDA is already seizing e-cigs at customs as drug-delivery devices.

One last thing on this:
A quote from an article in the Wall Street Journal;
"A federal judge said the Food and Drug Administration doesn't have the authority to seize electronic cigarettes because the products don't qualify as devices subject to the agency's regulation."
source: Judge Says FDA Has No Authority Over Electronic Cigarettes - WSJ.com

 

[CES]

short version: That ruling has been stayed by the appeals court until another set of arguments is complete. In the meantime, the FDA can and is seizing supplies (all components with and without nicotine) at customs.

 

[Hoosier]

Why does the FDA ban drugs that have been proven safe and effective and been in use for decades in other countries? Because the companies that make those drugs have not submitted paperwork & paid to have the tests done with FDA supervision in FDA approved labs. The process does take years and a simple incorrectly spelled word on a single page can result in a complete restart and it has to be restarted.

So, what company, who sells PV's, do you think has the capital reserves to spend all this money while the product they sell remains banned until they complete the trials? And if the process is sucessful, it allows that company to have exclusive rights to sell that product for quite a number of years.

That is what a drug delivery device has to go through in the USA. If you think that this system is in place to protect your health, then the news of recalled deadly drugs must have escaped your notice. The system has been created by the companies the FDA controls because it limits competion. That is the way US regulation works.

Remember Mattel imported all those toys that were full of lead? You know that all toys have to be tested by a third party for lead before they can be sold in the US now. Who has exemption from that law? The guy who makes toys from local wood and uses no paint or finish? Nope, Mattel.
The FDA has been killing people for decades by not approving drugs that have been proven safe, allowing drugs that are extremely dangerous, and generally acting like a typical government agency. I would not expect them to stop anytime soon. Why? Because most US folks want that illusion of safety. Many hold that illusion no matter how many facts are presented. They want to have a nanny or parent watching out for them forever because freedom is frightening.

There are a number of applicable quotes by G Washington, B Franklin, S Clements, and G Marx that would apply, but those guys are in the dustbin of history. May they spin quietly.

Note the above is my opinion and I have been angry with the FDA for more than a decade. I think the OP raises many good points for discussion. If someone doubts the story about lead, toys, and Mattel, it's out there, and is not a secret. If someone doubts the idea that the FDA blocks safe drugs and approves bad ones, they really should read more or talk to families that are fighting cancer.

Vaping is currently gray market stuff. If things don't reverse course it will be as black market as herion and much less safe than it is now.

 

[cloudkat]

Kristen,
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to see a ban at all on any of this. As a matter of a fact, go look at the signature on #18 of that petition you have been posting about. That is ME.

“If that is the case, all components would be subject to regulation.”
Yes, but ONLY the hardware. While that would suck, it is not the end of vaping.
Worst case scenario - the only thing that that would hurt vapers right now are attys. When you run out of them you will have to buy them from overseas or quit vaping. Everything else we can either still legally buy, or in the case of batteries, make. Again, that is “worst case”

“There are laws against those, but they aren't enforced. If the local governments decided to come down on those shops, they'd be in a world of hurt.”
Maybe where you live. In TN and FL these can be legally sold AS LONG AS they are marked as “tobacco products”. They can even legally advertise these things for sale on TV and radio as long as they are advertizing them as tobacco products.

“Wrong. They'd be more like neubulizers and inhalers for prescription medicine.”
Only if you were using the banned nicotine in it. Again, just like MJ, while it is illegal to have it UNLESS you have a prescription, you can buy all the accessories for it locally or on-line legally. If you are advertising and selling it as a “flavored vapor inhaler”, the only thing that would make it illegal is if you were using it with nicotine without a prescription.

“Good luck with that.”
Thank you. And BTW, there are actually a few people on this forum that Vape 0 nic.

“That works for you, but what about the millions of smokers who haven't even tried ecigs yet. should they be forced to keep smoking?”
If that is what they choose to do. There are many other “stop smoking” products and programs out there that they could try if they are serious about stoping while they are waiting on a decision to be made about e-cigs. No one is forcing them smoke. At least no one forced me to smoke. I never tried any other stop smoking product except for an e-cig. But there are many success stories using the many other methods available, IF someone is serious about stopping.

“They've ALREADY BEEN TESTED. The FDA and several other labs found nothing in them to indicate a danger to the public. The FDA chose to announce that their test found carcinogens and diethylene glycol, an ingredient in antifreeze. What they didn't announce is that:”
I agree completely here. But no matter what we do, testing WILL be done over a long period of time to determine health risks and/or issues. Does any one TRULY know what the long term effects of vaping LorAnn flavorings are? NO, because it has never been done. All we can do is guess at what long-term results MIGHT be according to what we know is in the vapor. But that does not guarantee us any amount of safety. Just look at the whole Tylenol thing, or the dog food fiasco a few years back. These were things that we all thought were safe based on what made up the individual compound. But long-term results showed an unexpected result which could be harmful to us. There are MANY examples of this.
All we can hope to do is fight these bans until the testing is completed and ACCEPTED by all parties involved. Just like real cigarettes. The FDA/WHO all know how horribly bad for you these things are, and there are ONGOING tests to prove it. But they are not banned during this testing. THAT is our goal. Testing WILL happen, we just need to fight to stop a ban from happening while the testing is going on.

“What's the point then for millions of smokers who need the nicotine?”
Like I said before, in a worst case scenario, there are many other methods for a dedicated person to quit smoking. Granted, e-cigs are the most effective, easy and enjoyable way to quit. But if they are banned, people who WANT to quit have many alternatives available to help them accomplish their goal.

 

[cloudkat]

cloudkat- you make some good points. Testing isn't a bad thing. The issue is that regulation as a medical device would result in a de facto ban until safety and efficacy testing is COMPLETE, years and lots of dollars from now.

Not necessarily true. Not about the time line but about the de facto ban.

Because the FDA is misrepresenting the data that came from their own study, the conflation of nicotine use with smoking, and all of the political and monetary considerations-we can either fight well now, or be forced to go underground or back to smoking. Neither of which are good options. I think that this has got to be better than smoking (i know i certainly feel better), and am willing to be a guinea pig.

Amen. I agree completely.

BTW, the FDA apparently considers not just the juice with nicotine, but ALL components of the e-cig as fair game.

I have seen this mentioned many times now. This is not true.
Read the summery of the NY case that just happened.
Quote: "Prohibits the sale of electronic cigarettes to minors; prohibits distribution or sale of any item containing or delivering nicotine that is not defined by law as a tobacco product or approved by the United States food and drug administration for sale as a tobacco use cessation or harm reduction product.

AN ACT to amend the public health law, in relation to prohibiting the sale of electronic cigarettes to minors and in relation to prohibiting the distribution or sale of any item containing or delivering nicotine that is not defined by law as a tobacco product or approved by the United States food and drug administration for sale as a tobacco use cessation or harm reduction product"
Once again I point out that our downfall is simply in calling it a "nicotine inhaler". Sell the things as a "flavored Vapor inhaler" and you escape through the loophole. Companies that make/sell these things can not be held responsible for what the end user vapes with it. If I want to put super glue in mine and vape it, it is my decision.
As long as companies put a disclaimer on there products stating that it is illegal to use this device for inhaling vaporized nicotine, then they are safe and escape through the loophole.

 

[keyzygirl]

I live in Key West Florida,The government showed up one day and took every ....,pipe and hitter out of every shop on Duval St.They do have the right,and it doesnt matter what your calling a .... they can still close you down!

 

[woolfe99]

Not only do I oppose a ban being in place while e-cigs are tested, I am not confident that whatever comes out of the other end of the testing will be at all desirable.

The FDA is enmeshed in a medical establishment that is very opposed to harm reduction strategies. Most likely, the end result of "testing" will be extremely strict regulations on e-cigs. Gone will be flavorized liquids because that "appeals to kids." You'd be forced to use flavorless liquid, like the vapor you get from a nicotine inhaler. Gone will be your choice of nicotine strength in the liquid. It will be strictly regimented like current NRT's. Gone will be higher voltage delivery. Batteries will have their voltage capped, as allowing us to inhale too much at one time might..who knows, kill us? Worst case, the FDA approved batteries might be required to only permit one vape every 15 minutes or so. The bottom line is that these will be neutured into "medical devices," much like current NRT's, and they will most likely be manufactured by large corporations. Gone will be everything about them that makes them more effective for smoking cessation than current NRT's, which have abysmal success rates.

Forgot about it. Keep the effing government away from it. They're going to kill us.

I see only one role for government here. They should regulate to ensure there are not actual toxins in the liquid, and that nic levels are consistently what they are advertised to be. And not selling to minors. That is all.

- wolf