The whole e-cig ban thing...help me understand

[cloudkat]

AHhhh…Finally, we get down to the heart and truth of the matter.
Thank you Hoosier.

This whole sickening this is about two things and two things only…MONEY and POWER.

I also have been ...... at the FDA and a couple of other health organizations since I was a teenager and watched my girlfriend’s mother shrivel away and die over a period of 2 ½ years from ALS (Lou Gehrig’s disease). There were a couple of mildly successful treatments going on overseas but her doctors and insurance would not help her get the treatment because it was not “approved” for use here in the states. They even went so far as to tell her that if she did go overseas on her own that the insurance company would drop her coverage.
Since then I have had 2 grandfathers both die of cancer and just a few months ago I had a close friend here in Knoxville die from ALS as well.

Granted, there is no guarantee that any of the treatments or medications in use overseas would have cured any of them. But when you are fighting for your life, ANYTHING is worth a shot. If I was dying and was told that I could cure myself by sticking a dead chicken up my ..., the only thing I would ask is could I clip its nails first.

But, because this is a money thing, (and it is LOTS of money…I mean LOTS) this is something that will be impossible to completely beat. Just think back to when nicotine gum first came out. Remember that? You could buy it in a gas station if you were 18 years old. And it was only a few cents more expensive than a regular pack of gum. Then the FDA and the AMA got involved and what happened? It disappeared for a little while then reappeared but it was now $10 a pack. The same thing happened with the nicotine patch when it came out.
This is the exact same thing happening again.

So, I go back AGAIN to a couple of simple points:
1 – Rename the PVs to something like “Flavored Vapor Inhaler” and put a disclosure on it about NOT using it for nicotine and that nicotine can kill you.
2 – Stock up on attys. batteries as well, but they are secondary to attys.
3 – Most importantly, FIGHT !! Keep signing petitions and sending letters and emails. We HAVE to make ourselves heard. Even if we know we will not win completely, maybe we can hold them off for a while. Hopefully this will give the manufactures time enough to join together and fight this as well by doing #1 above and by having the money from #2 they can now have the resources to fight effectively.

Just my .02

 

[cloudkat]

I live in Key West Florida,The government showed up one day and took every ....,pipe and hitter out of every shop on Duval St.They do have the right,and it doesnt matter what your calling a .... they can still close you down!

That's funny, my Uncle owns both Purple hazes' on Panama City Beach and was the co-owner of a head shop in Jacksonville. I grew up listening to his crazy stories.
I was born in Jacksonville and lived in Florida for my first 30 years.
This must be something that has happened recently, because i have asked my Uncle about the stuff he sold in his shops and he is the one who explained it to me. I will have to give him a call and see what has changed.

 

[BCB]

To Whiskey and Cloudkat: check out the thread "I hate the FDA", it shows a letter of seizure for one guy and a video of another by another guy.

 

[cloudkat]

Not only do I oppose a ban being in place while e-cigs are tested, I am not confident that whatever comes out of the other end of the testing will be at all desirable.

Agreed

The FDA is enmeshed in a medical establishment that is very opposed to harm reduction strategies. Most likely, the end result of "testing" will be extremely strict regulations on e-cigs. Gone will be flavorized liquids because that "appeals to kids." You'd be forced to use flavorless liquid, like the vapor you get from a nicotine inhaler. Gone will be your choice of nicotine strength in the liquid. It will be strictly regimented like current NRT's. Gone will be higher voltage delivery. Batteries will have their voltage capped, as allowing us to inhale too much at one time might..who knows, kill us? Worst case, the FDA approved batteries might be required to only permit one vape every 15 minutes or so. The bottom line is that these will be neutured into "medical devices," much like current NRT's, and they will most likely be manufactured by large corporations. Gone will be everything about them that makes them more effective for smoking cessation than current NRT's, which have abysmal success rates.

I agree with this only to the point of IF the manufacturers DO NOT start relabeling the hardware and change their product selling/advertising strategy. But at NO TIME will we loose our flavors. We will ALWAYS be able to buy LorAnns or Capella flavor drops to put into our juice.

Forgot about it. Keep the effing government away from it. They're going to kill us.

PREACH IT BROTHER ...SAY IT AGAIN !!!

I see only one role for government here. They should regulate to ensure there are not actual toxins in the liquid, and that nic levels are consistently what they are advertised to be. And not selling to minors. That is all.

Don't worry, they will. The only question is not IF they will do it, but HOW LONG before they do it?
This is why we need to fight this as long as we can.
There WILL be testing.
There WILL be regulations.
These things will happen because we are using nicotine and there is nothing we can do about that but hold it off as long as we can.

 

[BuzzKill]

It's all in the NAME you use , this is how Head shops get around the LAW , they have been doing it for years as far as I know nothing has changed.

A battery is a battery , NO way to stop selling batteries

an atomizer can be called anything ( thermal heating device ) for 1 you change the name you change it's purpose in the eyes of the LAW .

Now Nicotine THIS is the problem , you may have to make your own ?? No problem getting tobacco LOL !

Not to disagree with you Kristen just pointing out the info as I know it.

 

[cloudkat]

To Whiskey and Cloudkat: check out the thread "I hate the FDA", it shows a letter of seizure for one guy and a video of another by another guy.

Oh, I know that they have seized shipments. Last I saw it was up to 50 total shipments coming from overseas.
The question is can they LEGALLY do what they are doing?
I posted a link to a Federal Judge who said "No". But it is in appeals now.
Guess we will just have to wait and see.

 

[keyzygirl]

That's funny, my Uncle owns both Purple hazes' on Panama City Beach and was the co-owner of a head shop in Jacksonville. I grew up listening to his crazy stories.
I was born in Jacksonville and lived in Florida for my first 30 years.
This must be something that has happened recently, because i have asked my Uncle about the stuff he sold in his shops and he is the one who explained it to me. I will have to give him a call and see what has changed.

It happened over a year ago.They confiscated everything.Now the shops are still selling,but with less stock in shop.Just in case.

 

[cloudkat]

It's all in the NAME you use , this is how Head shops get around the LAW , they have been doing it for years as far as I know nothing has changed.

A battery is a battery , NO way to stop selling batteries

an atomizer can be called anything ( thermal heating device ) for 1 you change the name you change it's purpose in the eyes of the LAW .

This is what I have been trying to get at. We REALLY need to try to contact the manufacturers of these PVs and see what can be done about changing the name and putting some type of disclaimer on them about NOT using it for nicotine.

Now Nicotine THIS is the problem , you may have to make your own ?? No problem getting tobacco LOL !

If it wasn't so dangerous to play with concentrated nicotine, i would try doing this. But I quit smoking because I want to live. So I don't want to pick back up doing something even more dangerous than smoking is.
But....If you are going to do it, I'll buy some from you..

 

[woolfe99]

I agree with this only to the point of IF the manufacturers DO NOT start relabeling the hardware and change their product selling/advertising strategy. But at NO TIME will we loose our flavors. We will ALWAYS be able to buy LorAnns or Capella flavor drops to put into our juice.

Good point. If I'm forced to do that, I will. However, some of us prefer not to DIY, and some of us think that other people are better at mixing good tasting e-lquid than we are. I'm sure I could never come up with concoctions as good as someone like Geoff at TV, for example.

Another thought. The FDA might require a certain type of disposable cartridge which cannot be breached because they don't want people adding more nic, or flavorizers to it.

- wolf

 

[CES]

The state legislative attempts are only worded to prevent sale, not possession, but they also defer to the FDA. Whether or not the FDA can consider the hardware part of the device and seize it legally is, unfortunately a moot point- since they are doing it. And the court of appeals says they can continue to do so during the arguments. I don't know whether or not the level of seizure has increased- but i really wish they're spend their limited time and money looking for oh, I dunno, contaminated food or something.

 

[kristin]

Kristen,
Don’t get me wrong. I don’t want to see a ban at all on any of this. As a matter of a fact, go look at the signature on #18 of that petition you have been posting about. That is ME.

“If that is the case, all components would be subject to regulation.”
Yes, but ONLY the hardware. While that would suck, it is not the end of vaping.
Worst case scenario - the only thing that that would hurt vapers right now are attys. When you run out of them you will have to buy them from overseas or quit vaping. Everything else we can either still legally buy, or in the case of batteries, make. Again, that is “worst case”

You are only thinking of online mod users who MAY be able to get stuff past customs from China. There are thousands of vapers who are dependent upon kiosk and tobacco shop ecigs or standard ecigs like the 808 or 510.

“There are laws against those, but they aren't enforced. If the local governments decided to come down on those shops, they'd be in a world of hurt.”
Maybe where you live. In TN and FL these can be legally sold AS LONG AS they are marked as “tobacco products”. They can even legally advertise these things for sale on TV and radio as long as they are advertizing them as tobacco products.

And there is the difference. Those items can pretend to be for something else. Ecigs don't have that luxury.

“Wrong. They'd be more like neubulizers and inhalers for prescription medicine.”
Only if you were using the banned nicotine in it. Again, just like MJ, while it is illegal to have it UNLESS you have a prescription, you can buy all the accessories for it locally or on-line legally. If you are advertising and selling it as a “flavored vapor inhaler”, the only thing that would make it illegal is if you were using it with nicotine without a prescription.

The FDA intends to make the devices a drug delivery device and they will be able to decide if they are OK with no-nic as well. I wouldn't be surprised if the EPA got involved because "they don't know the long term effects of inhaling PG or VG."

“Good luck with that.”
Thank you. And BTW, there are actually a few people on this forum that Vape 0 nic.

I realize that, but the vast majority of ecig users were not looking to quit - they were looking for an alternative method of getting nicotine.

“That works for you, but what about the millions of smokers who haven't even tried ecigs yet. should they be forced to keep smoking?”
If that is what they choose to do. There are many other “stop smoking” products and programs out there that they could try if they are serious about stoping while they are waiting on a decision to be made about e-cigs. No one is forcing them smoke. At least no one forced me to smoke. I never tried any other stop smoking product except for an e-cig. But there are many success stories using the many other methods available, IF someone is serious about stopping.

See above - over 80% of vapers aren't trying to quit their nicotine habit - they just wanted to quit smoking tobacco. Most of them will likely go back to smoking.

“They've ALREADY BEEN TESTED. The FDA and several other labs found nothing in them to indicate a danger to the public. The FDA chose to announce that their test found carcinogens and diethylene glycol, an ingredient in antifreeze. What they didn't announce is that:”
I agree completely here. But no matter what we do, testing WILL be done over a long period of time to determine health risks and/or issues. Does any one TRULY know what the long term effects of vaping LorAnn flavorings are? NO, because it has never been done. All we can do is guess at what long-term results MIGHT be according to what we know is in the vapor. But that does not guarantee us any amount of safety. Just look at the whole Tylenol thing, or the dog food fiasco a few years back. These were things that we all thought were safe based on what made up the individual compound. But long-term results showed an unexpected result which could be harmful to us. There are MANY examples of this.
All we can hope to do is fight these bans until the testing is completed and ACCEPTED by all parties involved. Just like real cigarettes. The FDA/WHO all know how horribly bad for you these things are, and there are ONGOING tests to prove it. But they are not banned during this testing. THAT is our goal. Testing WILL happen, we just need to fight to stop a ban from happening while the testing is going on.

“What's the point then for millions of smokers who need the nicotine?”
Like I said before, in a worst case scenario, there are many other methods for a dedicated person to quit smoking. Granted, e-cigs are the most effective, easy and enjoyable way to quit. But if they are banned, people who WANT to quit have many alternatives available to help them accomplish their goal.

Have you seen the CASAA survey?? (See comment above about "quitting.) You are not a typical vaper. The majority of vapers will be screwed if these anti groups get their way.

 

[kristin]

It's all in the NAME you use , this is how Head shops get around the LAW , they have been doing it for years as far as I know nothing has changed.

A battery is a battery , NO way to stop selling batteries

an atomizer can be called anything ( thermal heating device ) for 1 you change the name you change it's purpose in the eyes of the LAW .

Now Nicotine THIS is the problem , you may have to make your own ?? No problem getting tobacco LOL !

Not to disagree with you Kristen just pointing out the info as I know it.

This is what I have been trying to get at. We REALLY need to try to contact the manufacturers of these PVs and see what can be done about changing the name and putting some type of disclaimer on them about NOT using it for nicotine.


If it wasn't so dangerous to play with concentrated nicotine, i would try doing this. But I quit smoking because I want to live. So I don't want to pick back up doing something even more dangerous than smoking is.
But....If you are going to do it, I'll buy some from you..

No offense, but you guys are way too insulated from the real world of ecigs.

The vast majority of vapers don't even know about mods or protected batteries or PG or VG or Lorann's or online forums dedicated to ecigs...

They buy their kit at the mall and go back for refills.

I'm glad for the small minority of vapers who would be able to survive a ban, but that will not be the case for most vapers.

The Chinese manufacturers are already labeling their packages "electronic components" and "batteries" and they are still being seized.

That "let's call them something else" horse left the barn a long time ago.

It doesn't matter what we call them anymore, the FDA goes on "intended use."

Yes, you should be able to sell the batteries, empty carts and attys separately - not assembled and not in a kit they aren't "ecigs." I've made that point for months now. someone could open up an "electronic hobby" shop. Using model numbers, no one could say what they are for.

However, there is that intent thing. Can a store open that only sells parts to make pipe bombs, so long as they don't assemble them?

There's another problem - for those of us that care about the vapers who would be lost without their mall kiosk and for millions of committed smokers who have no intention of quitting, but could still enjoy ecigs - they wouldn't have a clue what all of that stuff is for.

Sorry, I guess the difference is that I look at the situation not only as a vaper, but as a person who advocates for healthier alternatives for ALL smokers and ecig users.

When you look at it from a perspective of all of the lives that could be lost vs. the few experienced online vapers who will get by, a ban is a lot bigger of a deal.

 

[cloudkat]

“I realize that, but the vast majority of ecig users were not looking to quit - they were looking for an alternative method of getting nicotine.”
“See above - over 80% of vapers aren't trying to quit their nicotine habit - they just wanted to quit smoking tobacco. Most of them will likely go back to smoking.”
I concede these points to you. I cannot say that I know for sure what percentage of the forum users here started using e-cigs to quit smoking vs. finding an alternative method for getting their nicotine.
I never thought about it that way. I just assumed that all of us were trying to quit smoking, and using the e-cig to get away from the really bad stuff while still having the nicotine to help them through the process, adjusting the nic level to ever lower values until finally vaping 0 nic.
Never would I have thought that there would be anyone, much less that high of a percentage of users that actually WANTED the nicotine over the long term.

“And there is the difference. Those items can pretend to be for something else. Ecigs don't have that luxury.”
And
“The [FONT="]FDA[/FONT] intends to make the devices a drug delivery device and they will be able to decide if they are OK with no-nic as well.”
These two kind of go together. This is one of my biggest points.
First, e-cigs DO have that luxury. If manufacturers were to start renaming their products and change their advertising scheme along with a disclaimer on their packaging/advertising that says that their products are not intended for use as a nicotine delivery system, that they neither recommend nor endorse the use of nicotine, then those said products could NOT be targeted by the FDA since it is not the manufacturer, but the end-user who is adding the nicotine. They will most definitely try to continue with the seizures and banning but it puts the manufacturers and others in a MUCH better position to fight this. Thus enabling the eventual cease and desist on seizing these products and effectively stopping any potential ban on the hardware before it gets going. If we can protect the hardware, then the only thing that anyone could try to control is the sale of the nic juice.
An example of this would be an argument could be raised by the attorneys for our side saying that since these products are not made or intended for nicotine use, holding them to blame would be the equivalent of seizing all incoming super glue, paint thinner, air cans, etc.. because the end users “huff” them. Or seizing all incoming syringes because some people put ....... and/or .... in them.

See my point? If the manufacturers started getting pro-active with this now, it would make things much easier to fight when it comes down to the wire.
Be assured, a fight is coming. And the FDA/WHO/etc is gathering their ammo. We need to do the same. Petitions/emails/letters are all great. But in the long run won’t amount to much when the “big boys” start throwing all that money around. We need to be prepared to fight this legally. And we cannot do this alone.

 

[BuzzKill]

Those are very good points Kristen ,
however I have no problem becoming a USA based manufacturer of the product AHHHH Vapormizerators , I agree the people who have NOT heard of E-cigs will be on the outside UNTIL they are banned and become illegal then everyone will know about them LOL ( sorry not trying to make lite of the issue but just look at many substance bans and the effect they have had )

I agree the best way to deal with this is to FIGHT the Bans .

However as an American and a Vaper I feel very strongly that we need to step up as Manufacturers and start our own MFG right here , there will be no more customs issues , just like the Head Shop businesses did they learned how to work within the ruling of the written law in order to stay in business and still provide the products the customer wanted.

I realize that this is something that takes time and $$ but it will eventually happen IMO .

Still fighting bans is the BEST option !

 

[cloudkat]

“It doesn't matter what we call them anymore, the [FONT="]FDA[/FONT] goes on "intended use."”
NO, they do NOT.
The intended use of something is determined by the manufacturer..NOT THE FDA.
The FDA can not, will not, and will NEVER be able to dictate the intended use of an item. ONLY the manufacturer can determine the intended use of its product as long as it is not “grossly misleading to the public”.
If the manufacturer says the intended use is for one thing and people use it for something else, it is out of the hands of the manufacturer and their products can not be held accountable for the actions of the end user.

Computer component manufacturers are the worst of the bunch for utilizing this loop hole. The put a disclaimer on each part that says that overclocking or disassembling that part will void your warranty. Then they turn around and make replacement, high performance parts for these pieces and then not only endorse but sponsor overclocking competitions. Hell, one of their biggest advertising strategies of their high-end parts is just how “overclockable” or “overclock friendly” their parts are. But God help you if you actually burn something up while overclocking, you will get a fast and complete denial for RMA’ing the part. The worst thing is that this is all LEGAL. Because the “intended use” of the part is stock settings and they have a disclaimer on their packaging.
This is just one example. I could go on and on just giving examples of how products use the LEGAL loophole of product naming and disclaimers to avoid the law and/or liability of the end user.

You say that I am way too insulated from the real world of ecigs. I may be, but I am by no means naive nor stupid enough to just follow the flow. I question things and apply a little logic when I can. And logic is telling me to look at the possible outcome of this and do what I can to either head it off or prolong it as long as I can. This will have to include the help of the manufacturers and dealers/suppliers. We are not going to be able to do anything at all with just petitions and emails. Just look at NY. How many emails and signatures did that have behind it?

If you truly want to be proactive about all of this, start contacting the manufacturers and ask them to start changing the way they do things.

“The Chinese manufacturers are already labeling their packages "electronic components" and "batteries" and they are still being seized.”
If they are, and I have no reason to doubt you but I have never seen anything saying that they have done that, it is still not enough. They are renaming the parts “batteries” yes, but they are still batteries for a nicotine inhaler, when it should be batteries for a “flavored vapor inhaler”, or something like that, and all parts need to have the “no nicotine” disclaimer on it.

“Can a store open that only sells parts to make pipe bombs, so long as they don't assemble them?”
Yes, just go to any super Wal-Mart or large grocery store and you can buy everything you need to make a very effective bomb. Or talk to just about any hardware hacker and he will tell you that Radio Shack is the paradise on earth for making illegal hacking tools. Hell, for under $30 I can make an item that will scan the frequency of your electric garage door and make it open giving me access to your home.
Better yet, go to your local bookstore and go look at all the books on how to do illegal things. These books are not illegal to sell. Why? Because the publisher says that the “intended use” of these books is for “informational purposes only”. But you, me and everyone else here knows what kind of people read those books and why they are reading them, and what they are going to do once the read them.

” There's another problem - for those of us that care about the vapers who would be lost without their mall kiosk and for millions of committed smokers who have no intention of quitting, but could still enjoy ecigs - they wouldn't have a clue what all of that stuff is for.”
Again, I have to concede this point to you. You are correct. Most vapers would be lost if a ban were to come into effect. But this is where I think you are missing the entire purpose of this thread.
You are talking to me like I am either “for” a ban or just saying “oh well, let’s just lay down and take it”.
I am trying to be a realist here. It is these same people that you are talking about that have no friggin idea that a ban is about to blast them in the face. These people won’t know that their precious e-cigs have been outlawed until they go to their local kiosk next to get more supplies and find it gone or selling fuzzy dice instead of e-cigs.
You really want to help these people? Then do something that will make a major impact on the way things are going. Look more towards the eventual fact that the FDA is going to get their hands into this whether we like it or not. They WILL get involved because we are using nicotine. That is an inescapable fact. Write or sign all the petitions you want, send all the emails you want. Hell, I will even teach you how to hack an email account so you can send personal emails straight to the senators and congressmen. But the end result is that we are using a very deadly chemical and putting it into our bodies. The FDA/AMA/WHO/ACS and all their cousins ARE going to come down on us like the wrath of God.
What we need to be doing here is being a little more proactive in setting up our defenses against what is coming down the pipe. We need to protect what we can, and quit wasting time and energy on what we can not change.
Let’s try to protect the hardware. That is where they can really hurt us. If they ban or regulate (read: make incredibly expensive to buy) the hardware, then we have completely lost.
We know that they are going to eventually regulate the nic juice. This is just a given considering the fact of it being a deadly substance. If they make it more expensive to buy, and they will, well we can still get it and it will be a lot cheaper to buy expensive nicotine than it will be to buy expensive hardware. I bought one Tornado kit for $80. How much nic juice can I get for that same amount of money? Now if they ONLY double the cost of everything…well you see where I am going with this. Expensive nic juice vs expensive hardware AND nic juice, you decide which is better.
This also effects your “kiosk users”. If they can still buy the hardware, I am sure that the people who work at these shops can lead them in the right direction for their nic juice. Even if they can’t, there is still that percentage of people who will pick up a PV to help them quit smoking.
If we don’t have the hardware at all, or it is priced outrageously, or you have to have a prescription to buy it, well…now what happens to your “kiosk users”?

Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that you should stop doing the petitions and emails. I sign everyone that comes down. Every little bit helps. But what I am saying is that we need to prepare for this and work ourselves into a better legal fighting position.

 

[CaptJay]

Id love to beleive the FDA et al are concerned about my health but I dont htink they are. If they did they'd all be fighting the government tooth and nail and never giving in to ban CIGARETTES. Are they? No.
They (Govt not FDA et al) tax them heavily knowing people are addicted and will pay because they are addicted.
Are there free centers available, sponsored by FDA, ALA, AMA, ASH etc to help smokers give up their dependence on nicotine? AFAIK, there are not.
Are there expensive, inefficient and dangerous (whatever anyone tells me, Chantix is dangerous, how it ever got approved is beyond me) NRTs available? Yes, there are, if you have the money for it, and the insurance, and their inefficiency is why PVs were invented.
PV are not made by Big T or Big Pharma, but the inefficent expensive alternatives ARE.
PV and juice is not taxed by Government or State (other than regular sales tax).
Although ALA ASH etc adivse NOT smoking and hate smoking, they do not pressure the Govt in courts to have it made illegal or banned outright.
If all smokers quit smoking tomorrow, many states would be in serious finanical difficulties, because they rely on tobacco taxes to operate.
So here comes a really good alternative to smoking, that makes smokers quit, and isn't taxed, isn't illegal and works.
And suddenly it's being banned.
Doesn't take a genius to see links.
So its not my health that's in danger, its the coffers of the State and Govt. and Big business. My health means nothing compared to the money I can contribute, even if it kills me. Not hard to see why the phrase 'no contest' comes to mind is it?
These people forget what it is to BE American; its 'Liberty and justice for all', not FOR JUST A FEW RICH people.

 

[JuanC]

So many problems over there, i guess thats one of the only advantages of living on a 3rd world country, no one gives a damn, though ecigs are banned (all states) here the liquid is not (lol?) they banned the ecig because "it looks like a cigarette" (again lol??), also as all other bans seems it doesn't rly exist cuz they to lazy to check packages, and if u ever need you can go to customs with some money and "buy" a "nice" customs officer that will make any crap pass for you.

However i do fell that at least for 1rst world countries this will be the battle of the century, and unless the ecig becomes really popular really fast is going to end with the FDA/WHO winning in behalf of big tobacco.

Also since you all changing names why not label juice as a pesticide? after all nicotine is used in a wide range of pesticides like: Some Pesticides Permitted in Organic Gardening

I know is not the best thing to sell it as but would prevent it being illegal on websites/stores.

 

[whiskey]

Okay...very good stuff here...just jumping in to make sure everyone knows this is final week to get our say into NY for the proposed bill on banning...hope everyone will help us out by e-mailing,faxing,calling.
thanks everyone

 

[DC2]

I live in Key West Florida,The government showed up one day and took every ....,pipe and hitter out of every shop on Duval St.They do have the right,and it doesnt matter what your calling a .... they can still close you down!

Same thing happened here where I live in Vista as well.

 

[cliff5550]

"I agree the people who have NOT heard of E-cigs will be on the outside UNTIL they are banned and become illegal then everyone will know about them."

I disagree. Given the fact that the major news media have virtually ignored the e-cigarette legislation fights in the various states, can we really expect a total ban will receive widespread media attention? I doubt it. The same argument was recently made regarding young people going after e-cigs if they suddenly become banned.
Both conclusions seem unlikely. If they become banned or illegal everyone WILL NOT know about them. Plus, young people will continue to not care about these "gadgets". Easier to go buy a pack.
We've repeatedly introduced e-cigs to smokers who express an initial interest and curiosity, and some even pick up a 510 disposable kit from us and "kinda like it". But very few continue their interest once the disposables are disposed of.
Sadly, banning them will not create an uproar from anyone but us.