There is no law against buying fake purses, so why does ECF not allow clones?

[AndriaD]

You as a consumer seem to be experiencing an issue with your affection for clones.

While that issue is not yet one of the legal type, you can thank the silly rule here on ECF for preventing you from running into such a problem.

How you feel about the rule is secondary to how the administration feels about becoming a marketplace for the theft of others hard work and innovation.

Maurice

This is it exactly. To own it, hey, that's your business. It's ECF's business to protect themselves from lawsuits or legal action of any kind; providing a venue for the exchange of products that MIGHT be counterfeits would be totally stupid for them to do. It has nothing whatever to do with personal feelings, it's an administrative decision to prevent their "business" from being an unwitting accessory to a crime.

And as they correctly point out, if you don't like their rules, you're free to leave.

Andria

 

[cstone1991]

There is a federal law about selling 1:1 knockoffs, especially when copying a brand name or logo. So if you buy one, you are essentially buying and in possession of illegal goods. These big brands typically have all the copyright and trademark papers and attorneys behind them. But trust me it is illegal, I know plenty of people that have had the feds knocking on their door for importing knockoffs, from purses, to dvds, sunglasses etc.

Sorry dude, but nobody you know or ever will know has or ever will have the feds knock on their door because they possess knockoff goods. If you know "plenty of people" that sell knockoff goods, I question your choice in acquaintances. If that were the case, millions of Americans would have had feds knocking on their door when the Samsung Galaxy S II was found to be infringing on patents owned by Apple or any of the thousands of similar cases that have occurred in the last decade.

That's besides the point though, these mods that are cloned are not protected in any way, no trademarks, patents, or copyrights. Anyone is free to copy them and sell them for profit. If I made a pair of pants even with a logo on them and sold them with no legal protection, any company could copy them including logo without a problem. It is unethical, but in no way illegal.

 

[Dana A]

I don't have any opinion about clones. I have made a conscious decision to stick my head in the sand and ignore the whole debate. I will however have to say that I understand ECF admins reasons for the choice they made regarding the buying and selling of maybe, maybe not illegal merchandise threw the forums. They have to cover their back side legally. Please don't chastise them for that. If they go down where will we all hang out?

 

[HauntedMyst]

I am quite surprised how openly fakes are sold in the e-cig market, both by dealers and online.

It's because in terms of "big business", vaping products are a spec of dust and with the very rare exception, original mod makers don't have trademarks or design patents. When vaping companies grow to the size of "big tobacco" or another large business enough to have lobby and tax influence, then you'll see more enforcement. That is if "big tobacco" doesn't kill the vaping business through their efforts to take over and dominate closed system "e-cigarettes."

 

[dr g]

OP: Owning is one thing, but allowing them to be bought and sold through a website amounts to trafficking and THAT is very illegal. Federally illegal. You can run afoul of some VERY hardcore laws by being involved in the trafficking of counterfeit goods (RICO).

It's because in terms of "big business", vaping products are a spec of dust and with the very rare exception, original mod makers don't have trademarks or design patents. When vaping companies grow to the size of "big tobacco" or another large business enough to have lobby and tax influence, then you'll see more enforcement. That is if "big tobacco" doesn't kill the vaping business through their efforts to take over and dominate closed system "e-cigarettes."

Oh they have trademarks once they use them, they just won't be able to enforce them without a legal budget, and the scope of enforcement would be limited.

 

[HauntedMyst]

Have you heard of Patek Philippe? The most expensive watches in the world. In order to get into one of their stores, you need to "apply", which involves a background check as well. Also if you are Asian, you'll have a hard time getting in (reason being is because 99.99999% of all knock offs are coming out of Asia).

Its illegal to sell a knock off. What does that mean exactly? A replica of a product including identifying markings, logos etc that distinguish the product from others. Example, Coach hand bags are known for their lining and a plaque type of stamp inside the bag. If any of those are copied its illegal to purchase or sell. Now if the design of the bag was copied (is: what it looks like) without copying any of the registered trademarks, logos etc then its perfectly legal.

99% of fashion is a copy of something else. Believe it or not some designers actually copy lower end products because they are popular.

Canada Goose is a prime example. Everyone is making a parka in the same style as a Goose, but because they do not copy the identifying markings they are not knock offs, (PS don't buy Goose anymore as an American clothing company purchased 75% of the company and they will no longer have a life time warranty on the down).

I'll add more the post tomorrow as I'm on my phone.

My wife was in the fashion business for years and all of this is true. Clothing companies knock each other off all the time and just change it to their logo. Copy the logo = illegal. Copy the shirt without the logo = legal. I believe North Face tried to sue South .... for logo infringement and were ordered into mediation so they end up just buying them out to get them off the market. Deep pockets.

 

[dr g]

My wife was in the fashion business for years and all of this is true. Clothing companies knock each other off all the time and just change it to their logo. Copy the logo = illegal. Copy the shirt without the logo = legal. I believe North Face tried to sue South .... for logo infringement and were ordered into mediation so they end up just buying them out to get them off the market. Deep pockets.

According to this, they did not lose: The South .... - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
They went to court-ordered mediation and settled. Later the south .... guys violated the terms of the settlement and got shut down by the courts.

EDIT: Ninja edit!

 

[Steamix]

All depends on patents and trademarks.

As for the European Union, trademark holders can - and do - ask the authorities ( namely customs ) to aid them in fighting trademark infringements.

Was picking a package with vape stuff from customs and overheard an interesting phone conversation - seems a guy had ordered a pair of trademark running shoes which were promptly seized by customs as the trademark holder had filed for protection against counterfeit products. So the guy now walks barefoot with a slimmer wallet. Plus still runs a slim chance of the tradermak holder's lawyers causing him all sorts of grief.

Also happens frequently at trade fair that exhibitors get their stalls closed by lawyers with customs officials in tow when the fakery is too blatant.

Is a fine line between 'me-too' and trademark or patent rights infringement.

Taking something and improving on it - some clones perform better than the originals.

Compare todays smartphones with the early mobile phones. Compare early mods with what you can get today.

Progress is sometimes a big leap, but often its a thousand little babysteps...

 

[ProjektMayhem]

Those companies are selling look a likes, Not 1:1 clones. Thats their loophole.

Yeah there's definitely a big difference between a 1:1 clone and a look a like, lol.

 

[TheJakeBailey]

Its a hypocritical rule. I expect the leading forum for e-cigs to hold themselves to the same standards in which this industry is wanting ANTZ to hold themselves to..

We don't want the FDA to restrict e-cigs because of some personal vendetta against nicotine.
I don't want ECF to restrict clones because of some personal vendetta against "the theft of other's hard work and innovation"

Wow, now that is a stretch! But at least it's an angle I haven't heard before!

There are many, many places on the net where you can start a group buy for any clone you want. This just isn't one of them. It's a privately owned enterprise, thus they get to make the rules.

 

[WattWick]

50% of all laws exist thanks to the argument "There is no law against it". The other 50% are made by control freaks.

 

[Avid]

50% of all laws exist thanks to the argument "There is no law against it". The other 50% are made by control freaks.

*snicker*

 

[bluecat]

Their board. Their rules.

At 20 bucks a clone, depending on where you buy, I would not buy a used clone.

 

[Circa Survivor]

If you ever buy clones, just plan on keeping them. They're not expensive enough to need to sell.

 

[spartanstew]

Well, the official rule of ECF is no 1:1 clones, which is silly. The slug mod clone doesn't have any logo so it should be allowed.

Incorrect. It can still be considered a counterfeit without a logo, if it's visually the same as a unique mod. The Hana Box Clones are a perfect example. Most don't have a logo, but it's clearly a counterfeit due to the design and they aren't allowed here. The slug mod clone fits into that same category. ECF has taken the stance that direct counterfeits aren't allowed. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Do you think a Gucci handbag forum would allow for counterfeits to be sold on their site? No.

 

[VannyPak]

This is it exactly. To own it, hey, that's your business. It's ECF's business to protect themselves from lawsuits or legal action of any kind; providing a venue for the exchange of products that MIGHT be counterfeits would be totally stupid for them to do. It has nothing whatever to do with personal feelings, it's an administrative decision to prevent their "business" from being an unwitting accessory to a crime.

And as they correctly point out, if you don't like their rules, you're free to leave.

Andria

This.

OP: Owning is one thing, but allowing them to be bought and sold through a website amounts to trafficking and THAT is very illegal. Federally illegal. You can run afoul of some VERY hardcore laws by being involved in the trafficking of counterfeit goods (RICO).



Oh they have trademarks once they use them, they just won't be able to enforce them without a legal budget, and the scope of enforcement would be limited.

And this.

 

[skoony]

hi all,
good comments as usual.

one thing i would like to address is the word clone itself.

: a product (such as a computer) that is a copy of another product produced by a well-known company

Synonyms
carbon, carbon copy, copy, dummy, dupe, duplicate, duplication, facsimile, imitation, mock, reduplication, replica, replication, reproduction.

one might add,fake or,knock-off to the list.

calling it a clone doesn't mean its ok to make a an exact replica of Bob's vapo-mister x100 and,
market it as a Bob's vapo-mister x100 clone.

one could name there mod anything. so why not call your clone,mister vapor 300t?
that would be perfectly legal but,you don't get the benifit fo the original makers reputation.

regards
mike

 

[Wraith504]

Incorrect. It can still be considered a counterfeit without a logo, if it's visually the same as a unique mod. The Hana Box Clones are a perfect example. Most don't have a logo, but it's clearly a counterfeit due to the design and they aren't allowed here. The slug mod clone fits into that same category. ECF has taken the stance that direct counterfeits aren't allowed. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.

Do you think a Gucci handbag forum would allow for counterfeits to be sold on their site? No.

Is the design and function protected by any patents? if not I can use the design all day long and not have to worry.

 

[dirtybirdy]

It is against the law to sell fakes with correct logos and everything. That is called copyright infringement. Also if you go to TJ Maxx or Ross you are not buying fake bags. Normally if you can find a coach or Michael Kors bag it is defected in some type of way. It could simple have a stitch error somewhere to one stitch color being wrong.

It is funny that you think big huge retail stores sale fake items. That gave me a good laugh.

 

[dirtybirdy]

Someone said something like its to protect ECF business somewhere on this post but I couldn't find it.

ECF is not running a business. The classifieds are not setup like a business. ECF dose not pay taxes. If you get screwed on the classifieds you get screwed. ECF in no way is going to give you your money back.

A real business such as Amazon and eBay protects you. Amazon makes all sellers have at least a 30 day return policy and anything can be returned in that 30 days no matter the reason. Also Amazon will protect you if you never get your item, your item is fake, etc.

eBay does the same thing minus the return policy is not mandatory.

Also ECF does not profit in anyway with the classifieds so its not a business.