You know I looked at WomanofHearts link at it was an MSDS I looked at your link and it was an organic skin care product website that is trying to demonize chemicals to increase sales...
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"Propylene glycol is generally considered to be a safe chemical, and is not routinely tested for, unless specific exposure, such as to a medicine or cosmetic, can be linked with symptoms. Since both propylene glycol and ethylene glycol break down very quickly in the body, they are very difficult to detect, even though symptoms may be present."
Stuff like that, that makes me nervous.
Source: Information reproduced courtesy of
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Division of Toxicology
Regardless, you can look at womanofhearts msds link as well and find similar if not more disturbing possibilities. But, alas, there's nothing for it. It would appear that both pg and vg are quite similar, as far as unknown longterm effects and being a possible physiological threat (when used in large proportions of course, but no data supporting for long periods of time).
So, twas paranoia. Justified paranoia imo, but I'll just have to accept this. I guess it's just easier to say that obviously it's better than smoking.
PG vs VG was one of the things I search out online. When I had mentioned to my daughter the vapor had PG she said "Do you know what that is!". Sent me looking really fast! I started with only 100% VG. Yes, flavors have some PG in them. I DIY my liquids so other than the flavoring I know it's VG. BTW I do use more flavor in my juices, just my preference in taste.
Interesting information. I personally use 100%VG and mix myself, so no PG. The flavor and nic are both VG based, but I do this because PG gives me hives. Just my personal choice.
good info.... i've just ordered my first vaping supplies and this thread is getting me a bit paranoid... then again all i have to do is think about what i've been putting into my body with cig smoke for the last 25 years of my life and i feel all better. i mean really, even if PG/VG may have some harmful effects, it can't possibly be worse then sig smoke, right...?
now, hopefully not too much off topic, and in line with me being a bit paranoid, i have a question for you folks, i've been reading here that some get these mouth blisters, and i'm a bit confused here, it says that those are one of the nic withdrowal symptoms, but thats just does not sound right to me, can it be that that these sores/blisters are effects of the PG or VG?
my appologies if my question is stupid or ignorant, but i'm still new to this, only been reading for few days and certainly don't have all the info.
now, hopefully not too much off topic, and in line with me being a bit paranoid, i have a question for you folks, i've been reading here that some get these mouth blisters, and i'm a bit confused here, it says that those are one of the nic withdrowal symptoms, but thats just does not sound right to me, can it be that that these sores/blisters are effects of the PG or VG?
my appologies if my question is stupid or ignorant, but i'm still new to this, only been reading for few days and certainly don't have all the info.
If by mouth blisters you mean canker sores... Canker sores are a common symptom for people withdrawing from tobacco that do not vape. They connected to your immune system and detoxing from anything increases the stress your body and immune system is under. I think it is far more likely connected to this instead of VG/PG unless it is a cinnamon flavor.
i see. thank you for explaining.
edit: just googled some info on canker sores+quit smoking and looks like lots of people get those... wow this sucks hope i dont get those. is it really a big percentage of people that get those?
again, sorry for thread jack.
edit: just googled some info on canker sores+quit smoking and looks like lots of people get those... wow this sucks hope i dont get those. is it really a big percentage of people that get those?
again, sorry for thread jack.
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Levitas - since PG is found in tobacco anyway I still would consider vaping a harm reduction approach because you are cutting out the burning and 4000+ other chemicals. I think we would need to figure out the AMOUNTS of PG or VG to cause those adverse effects before I would would worry about it. Nicotine itself in high concentration is lethal, so I think the amounts would be critical. I like 100% VG better myself and the option of using organic VG.
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I wouldn't dismiss it, but dizziness is probably from the increased amount of oxygen your body is able to intake now. There is "extra" oxygen in your blood being delivered to your brain. Even people that are not vaping can have this as a physical symptom even three or so months later. If you are concerned about it, I would go see a doctor.
Right, I definitely agree that it's most likely safer than cigarettes, no doubt but my concern wasn't comparing cigarettes to pg/vg rather pg/vg to long term health.
This is a played out tune of course, but imo, should be played out. I agree to an extent about finding out how much pg/vg does it take to cause harm, but I pretty much understand that any substance when overused is harmful. I know that using pg/vg a few milliliters a day will not kill me, right away. I like many others just want to know what the possibilities of long term exposure could do.
Of course let's take away fog machines and the fact that cigarettes have pg/vg in them because honestly, no one huffs 2-6mL of fog juice a day and cigarettes don't contain as much pg/vg as e-liquid. So, you're right. We do need to find out a regulated amount that might be safe to use daily. At the very least, cancer is most likely not on the list of worries and that in itself makes me feel a helluva lot better.
This had me thinking of the 'Japanese Radiation' scares and while it was technically true a 'level' came across the ocean the reality is that it was less than what we all commonly experience walking around the street on any given day!
But I don't know about PG levels at all. Is this like the 'radiation' in that its harmful if you are somehow sitting in a room of PG fog for 24 hrs a day or are we talking vaping levels so low as to be barely worth considering?
Does it accumulate?
Maybe I can be 'data' for some future study. I was vaping heavily for about 2 months before my physical exam and blood work. I get a liver and kidney test because a medication I am on is known to be very hard on those two organs. My tests came back 100% excellent liver and kidneys (and everything else for that matter).
OK,
but now let me mention something here - PG makes me feel sick. Some of the symptoms mentioned here. Dizzy, nauseous and most remarkably I can feel a surprisingly strong urge to vomit. I say 'remarkable' because rarely ever throw-up and even pepto-bismol won't repress this.
Now my thinking was nicotine 'overdose' (in fact, reminds me a lot of the first time I inhaled a cigar as a boy) but then I think I noticed a trend:
- The PG (and only PG) e-juice I ordered seems to be the worst culprit and by a good margin.
- Another juice is about 1 part PG and 1 part VG and sure enough this seems to get me 'half-way' sick feeling.
- Then I realized one of the juices is VG (either only or mostly) one and low and behold it seems I can vape that all day long.
Now, I never made any kind of methodological study on this other than noticing the trend overall. Maybe I will start taking a close look at the blends and noting down consistently.
But hey.. 'so far' my liver and kidneys are just fine (at least for what they were tested for). If there is degeneration a year later I definitely might take a close look at vaping.
But I don't know about PG levels at all. Is this like the 'radiation' in that its harmful if you are somehow sitting in a room of PG fog for 24 hrs a day or are we talking vaping levels so low as to be barely worth considering?
Does it accumulate?
Maybe I can be 'data' for some future study. I was vaping heavily for about 2 months before my physical exam and blood work. I get a liver and kidney test because a medication I am on is known to be very hard on those two organs. My tests came back 100% excellent liver and kidneys (and everything else for that matter).
OK,
but now let me mention something here - PG makes me feel sick. Some of the symptoms mentioned here. Dizzy, nauseous and most remarkably I can feel a surprisingly strong urge to vomit. I say 'remarkable' because rarely ever throw-up and even pepto-bismol won't repress this.
Now my thinking was nicotine 'overdose' (in fact, reminds me a lot of the first time I inhaled a cigar as a boy) but then I think I noticed a trend:
- The PG (and only PG) e-juice I ordered seems to be the worst culprit and by a good margin.
- Another juice is about 1 part PG and 1 part VG and sure enough this seems to get me 'half-way' sick feeling.
- Then I realized one of the juices is VG (either only or mostly) one and low and behold it seems I can vape that all day long.
Now, I never made any kind of methodological study on this other than noticing the trend overall. Maybe I will start taking a close look at the blends and noting down consistently.
But hey.. 'so far' my liver and kidneys are just fine (at least for what they were tested for). If there is degeneration a year later I definitely might take a close look at vaping.
Levitas, such information is not all that hard to find out with a little more digging.
Did you click the links on that scary "research" page you found? They lead to email sign-up pages or advertising. If this is the only source of your worry, I think you can stop. That page is pure Internet Marketing 101: controversial subject and unsubstantiated claims, designed to raise anxiety and get you to click for more information. Anxious people buy things to alleviate anxiety.
Read it again. Is anything much quantified in that article? No. They say "large" amounts of such chemicals can be harmful, then raise concerns about two different glycol chemicals, but refer to them using "and" instead of being specific. If they know so much, why don't they just state the specs? Notice that they don't, for PG. Could that be because (according to Wikipedia) "The industrial norm is to replace ethylene glycol with propylene glycol when safer properties are desired." But this scary website doesn't bother to distinguish between the two. They make claims about toxicity without actual details, thus painting PG with the same brush as EG, when in fact they are different.
In an attempt to add legitimacy to their shoddy "research" however, they credit an official-looking authority:
"Source: Information reproduced courtesy of
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Division of Toxicology"
Is there any such outfit? Yes, they're under the auspices of the CDC. I went to their website and searched for propylene glycol. Check this out: Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: What is Propylene Glycol | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM - there it says specifically that "Unlike ethylene glycol, propylene glycol does not produce nephrotoxicity in humans." That means it does NOT cause kidney damage. It also says, "FDA considers an average daily dietary intake of 23 mg/kg of body weight to be safe for persons 2-65 years of age (Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry 1997)."
I did some more researching for math in terms of liquid, found some conversion calculators, and if I did the math right - that translates to about 1/3 of a gallon for a 110 pound woman. Daily. Not that I trust the FDA, but that's a LOT of PG. And you are worried about 3ml?
Research is good, but anybody can claim anything on the internet. Most people do not take the time to verify sources, so many "research articles" cite sources that actually say something completely different than what the article suggests, as in this instance.
It's good to be concerned about the probably-benign chemicals we're using in a way that no studies have contemplated. Some people do have allergic reactions, and to all kinds of things; we live in a highly chemicalized world, especially compared to 50 years ago. That's why I eat a lot of organic, locally-grown food and shun Big Pharma and Big Agra as much as possible.
But I'm really not that concerned about possible long-term effects of vaping being harmful, even after weeks of intensive research (confession: that was mostly on ECF, which has an obvious bias, but a lot of outside reading too). I've been exposed to PG and VG all my life as an American, without harm - it's in everything. I don't intend to be vaping forever, but while I choose to, I'm not going to worry about some one-page website trying to get me all worked up with incomplete, inaccurate allegations that are easily countered with a little further investigation. ESPECIALLY when that website's claims are refuted by the very source it cites!!
In fact, I'm probably harming my liver more by drinking the beer I'm about to open. Cheers, everybody! Vape on!
Did you click the links on that scary "research" page you found? They lead to email sign-up pages or advertising. If this is the only source of your worry, I think you can stop. That page is pure Internet Marketing 101: controversial subject and unsubstantiated claims, designed to raise anxiety and get you to click for more information. Anxious people buy things to alleviate anxiety.
Read it again. Is anything much quantified in that article? No. They say "large" amounts of such chemicals can be harmful, then raise concerns about two different glycol chemicals, but refer to them using "and" instead of being specific. If they know so much, why don't they just state the specs? Notice that they don't, for PG. Could that be because (according to Wikipedia) "The industrial norm is to replace ethylene glycol with propylene glycol when safer properties are desired." But this scary website doesn't bother to distinguish between the two. They make claims about toxicity without actual details, thus painting PG with the same brush as EG, when in fact they are different.
In an attempt to add legitimacy to their shoddy "research" however, they credit an official-looking authority:
"Source: Information reproduced courtesy of
Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry
Division of Toxicology"
Is there any such outfit? Yes, they're under the auspices of the CDC. I went to their website and searched for propylene glycol. Check this out: Ethylene Glycol and Propylene Glycol Toxicity: What is Propylene Glycol | ATSDR - Environmental Medicine & Environmental Health Education - CSEM - there it says specifically that "Unlike ethylene glycol, propylene glycol does not produce nephrotoxicity in humans." That means it does NOT cause kidney damage. It also says, "FDA considers an average daily dietary intake of 23 mg/kg of body weight to be safe for persons 2-65 years of age (Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry 1997)."
I did some more researching for math in terms of liquid, found some conversion calculators, and if I did the math right - that translates to about 1/3 of a gallon for a 110 pound woman. Daily. Not that I trust the FDA, but that's a LOT of PG. And you are worried about 3ml?
Research is good, but anybody can claim anything on the internet. Most people do not take the time to verify sources, so many "research articles" cite sources that actually say something completely different than what the article suggests, as in this instance.
It's good to be concerned about the probably-benign chemicals we're using in a way that no studies have contemplated. Some people do have allergic reactions, and to all kinds of things; we live in a highly chemicalized world, especially compared to 50 years ago. That's why I eat a lot of organic, locally-grown food and shun Big Pharma and Big Agra as much as possible.
But I'm really not that concerned about possible long-term effects of vaping being harmful, even after weeks of intensive research (confession: that was mostly on ECF, which has an obvious bias, but a lot of outside reading too). I've been exposed to PG and VG all my life as an American, without harm - it's in everything. I don't intend to be vaping forever, but while I choose to, I'm not going to worry about some one-page website trying to get me all worked up with incomplete, inaccurate allegations that are easily countered with a little further investigation. ESPECIALLY when that website's claims are refuted by the very source it cites!!
In fact, I'm probably harming my liver more by drinking the beer I'm about to open. Cheers, everybody! Vape on!
Wow, Vaporchef, you are the woman. Though I haven't posted it, I've already made my decision to not worry about it, at least not for the moment being. But, in small defense, I wasn't only being paranoid based on the one website's info (regardless of it's validity), but the MSDS sheets themselves. Now, I completely understand (and have said) that pg/vg is harmful when they're overused, but that wasn't my main concern. My main concern were the long term effects and what the probability of any adverse effects could be. I know this is all very new and long term studies are just non-existant, that's probably why I am nervous (or was rather). But, I've made my decision. I tried vaping nothing but VG all day (alien vision stuff) and I just really like my pg/vg flavors too much and have too little to worry on.
So, in conclusion, I'm happy and content at staying at a 50/50 blend BUT I will not alleviate my underlining fear or suspicion of any possible long term adverse effects of inhaling pg/vg but I definitely will not beat myself into anxiety fits because of such mental precautions either In other words, I think I'm good. Seriously though, thank you. I enjoyed the read!!! I am shipping those juices tomorrow for ya btw.
Perhaps I lack the regulated amount of gamma aminobutyric acid neurotransmitters? Too many neurons firing in too many directions, lol.
So, in conclusion, I'm happy and content at staying at a 50/50 blend BUT I will not alleviate my underlining fear or suspicion of any possible long term adverse effects of inhaling pg/vg but I definitely will not beat myself into anxiety fits because of such mental precautions either
In other words, I think I'm good. Seriously though, thank you. I enjoyed the read!!! I am shipping those juices tomorrow for ya btw. Perhaps I lack the regulated amount of gamma aminobutyric acid neurotransmitters? Too many neurons firing in too many directions, lol.
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If your going to worry about anything your inhaling, I would be more concerned with the flavors. Maybe you should use flavorless too.
Hahaha! Noooo, please don't hurt me like that. <<runs away>>
Levitas, sounds like you are about where I was last summer. I'm not completely unconcerned about inhaling this stuff - the flavorings contain a variety of other chemicals too - in tiny amounts, yeah, but who knows about them either? We are voluntary guinea pigs here, trusting from the info we've been able to discover that water vapor and a few traces of GRAS substances are, indeed, all that these juices break down into when we vaporize and inhale them.
My larger concern was that Chinese manufacturers care a lot less about quality control than we do (I'd bet that we care more about Americans than they do, too). So I mostly avoid Chinese-manufactured juice and prefer to keep my dollars stateside. It's a politically-motivated choice for me as much as a quality-concern choice, and it's as much a personal rationalization as anything else. Everyone has to find their own peace with their own choices in life.
Inhaling anything other than pure fresh air is sub-optimal - vaping is a choice with unknown outcomes. Everything in life is a calculated risk anyway, so I'm glad to see people doing their own independent research and learning as much as they can to make more-informed choices. Then, periodically re-evaluate to see if that's still the choice you want to make down the road a piece. I suspect that this underlying concern about possible long-term negative consequences is behind a lot of vapers giving up vaping eventually, or planning to.
I worked in factories and industrial environments where safety got lip service at best, freely exposing us to welding and paint fumes, benzene, and other toxic substances all day long. I also worked in a corporate environment where OSHA was called in to address horrible workstation ergonomics that were injuring early computer users back when you were barely in grammar school. Heck, I took birth control pills for almost 30 years, starting when nobody really knew anything about their possible long-term effects. So it's not like I haven't spun the biological roulette wheel before.
These discussions might even help raise awareness about other chemicals that we are constantly subjected to, without any disclosure, in our food and water right here in the good old U.S. of A. Some of the produce you eat may have been grown in fields fertilized with raw sewage! Yep, that happens, but ignorance is bliss, right?
Pay attention, inform yourself as well as you can (on an ongoing basis) and listen to your body's reactions. We are all individuals, what works for one may not work for another. YMMV, so pay attention to the gas gauge as you roll down the road! And govern yourself according to your personal experience. That's all any of us can do, really.
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