U.S.A: PACT Act 2009

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olderthandirt

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Hey bogie
Breakdowns such as yours are truly appreciated, continues to help all concerned better understand.

Several here use snus and snuff in tandem with vaping to to stay off the cigs. There's my biggest concern with the PACT acts.
I'll stand aside as to the fairness of assessing taxes.

What I get from the proposed bills is the way in which the vendors are required to document and collect relevant taxes. Seems highly likely that they would simply refuse sales to the US or as for current US based vendors, possibly be put out of business.
 

AngeLsLuv

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Hey bogie
Breakdowns such as yours are truly appreciated, continues to help all concerned better understand.

Several here use snus and snuff in tandem with vaping to to stay off the cigs. There's my biggest concern with the PACT acts.
I'll stand aside as to the fairness of assessing taxes.

What I get from the proposed bills is the way in which the vendors are required to document and collect relevant taxes. Seems highly likely that they would simply refuse sales to the US or as for current US based vendors, possibly be put out of business.

Oh!! I gotta tell ya'... I was fine with just an e-ciggie, but I had bought alot of Menthol juice and tend to feel the need for a tobacco flavor... I decided to buy a Hookah (since I had used friend's back in the day), until I order like 10-15 30ml bottles or a liter... OMG!!! Going from analogs to e-ciggie's, and now having a Hookah once or twice a day, I am getting way enough nicotine, but what is really fun is that I get such a buzz that I drop to my knees if I stand up within 30 minutes using this Hookah *LOL*
 

ladysolitary85

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Oh!! I gotta tell ya'... I was fine with just an e-ciggie, but I had bought alot of Menthol juice and tend to feel the need for a tobacco flavor... I decided to buy a Hookah (since I had used friend's back in the day), until I order like 10-15 30ml bottles or a liter... OMG!!! Going from analogs to e-ciggie's, and now having a Hookah once or twice a day, I am getting way enough nicotine, but what is really fun is that I get such a buzz that I drop to my knees if I stand up within 30 minutes using this Hookah *LOL*

Hookahness :rolleyes::thumb:

I love hookah too lol.

See the only thing that worries me about the e-cig at this point is... what if they try to take away flavors from it to "save the kids" and the only option we have left is tobacco or menthol?

My take on menthol is to me, its still a flavor, it has a minty fresh taste to it.... I see kids smoking analog full flavor or menthol over candy-like flavored ones.... sheesh.
 

AngeLsLuv

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Hookahness :rolleyes::thumb:

I love hookah too lol.

See the only thing that worries me about the e-cig at this point is... what if they try to take away flavors from it to "save the kids" and the only option we have left is tobacco or menthol?

My take on menthol is to me, its still a flavor, it has a minty fresh taste to it.... I see kids smoking analog full flavor or menthol over candy-like flavored ones.... sheesh.

Hahaha I do adore this hookah but I'm on the floor every time I stand up after using it *LOL*

That's the deal with the flavor garbage the lovely FDA is pulling.. It all seems as if someone at the FDA happened to see "Defending Your Life" and saw how those on the "other side" could eat anything that tasted bad since they were so "above" those who just died.. It's as if adults cannot "like" anything that tastes good?? I guess those in the FDA don't eat deserts either *LOL*..
 

ladysolitary85

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Next they'll be banning all caffinated sodas from the market for the good of the children.

*shakes head*

Seriously, FDA needs to stop! They're just getting wayyy too much control.

I Wish a bunch of people would just go pull one of those anti-tobacco commercial thingy and go stand outside the FDA's building holding up signs about how e-cigs have benefited our lives.
 

mschwenk

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Next they'll be banning all caffinated sodas from the market for the good of the children.

*shakes head*

Seriously, FDA needs to stop! They're just getting wayyy too much control.

I Wish a bunch of people would just go pull one of those anti-tobacco commercial thingy and go stand outside the FDA's building holding up signs about how e-cigs have benefited our lives.


Actually that is a good idea. Just need people to organize it. Would not take much money, just people willing to make a road trip. If organized far enough in advance, that is not hard to do.
 

firechick

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The Native Americans will fight back and I mean that literally. They did a few years back when the state of New York tried to block shipments from leaving the reservations.

Tires burning on the Thruway, scuffles with Troopers, it was a big deal. My local newspaper just printed an article a couple of weeks ago that Gov. Patterson asked the military to assess how likely violent response from the Reservations would be if he enforced the tax collection act that was passed years ago, but no other Governor would enforce.
 

Kresh

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May 2, 2009
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I guess even if they tried to apply that (which, given the interpretation that was done before shouldn't apply to e-cigs) we are in a more adventagous position because we can still individually flavor our juice.

It is just a shame that they have to make more laws about analogs and they can't even enforce the existing laws. Seriously, if they enforced the existing laws, then minors wouldn't have them or smoke them. If that was enforced, then they wouldn't have to come out with this law.

I'm starting to see more conspiracy though. I am sensing that Big Pharm is trying to influence so more ppl get "off" analogs...btw you can still get multiple flavors of gum, right? Oh and the federal report totally dissing the American Cancer Institute saying that breast exams don't "need" to start til 50?

Could this all be in support of funding the new health care bill while still ensuring that big pharm and big tobacco are covered?

Dunno, just my 2 cents as a "concerned citizen" that certainly is looking at whom I will NOT vote for next elections.
 

MBK

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Nov 5, 2009
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Folks - I didn't read all 14 pages of this thread, so I apologize up front if this (or something similar) was posted somewhere before.

I will also start out with - I'm not a lawyer, but I do have to interperet laws for my job... and I apologize for the length of this post...

*********************
There are two acts trying to control TOBACCO sales -
- one regarding mailing of (PACT Act of 2009)
- another regarding flavored tobaccos inticing minors to start smoking (The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act of 2009)

*********************
PACT Act of 2009

Two definitions taken from the full text of the bill:
‘(2) CIGARETTE-
‘(A) IN GENERAL- The term ‘cigarette’--
‘(i) has the meaning given that term in section 2341 of title 18, United States Code; and
‘(ii) includes roll-your-own tobacco (as defined in section 5702 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986).

‘(12) SMOKELESS TOBACCO- The term ‘smokeless tobacco’ means any finely cut, ground, powdered, or leaf tobacco, or other product containing tobacco, that is intended to be placed in the oral or nasal cavity or otherwise consumed without being combusted.

The definition in section 2341 of title 18, United States Code, referred to above:
(1) the term “cigarette” means—
(A) any roll of tobacco wrapped in paper or in any substance not containing tobacco; and
(B) any roll of tobacco wrapped in any substance containing tobacco which, because of its appearance, the type of tobacco used in the filler, or its packaging and labeling, is likely to be offered to, or purchased by, consumers as a cigarette described in subparagraph (A);

Based on these and reading thru the rest of the bill – I would conclude that E-Cigs, their components and the nic liquid are not subject to this bill.

The bill is specifically referring to and dealing with ‘Tobacco’, in its leafy form (be it shredded, powdered, etc).

No where does the bill approach nic liquid being derived from tobacco. While derived from tobacco; it does not contain any tobacco.

While they use the term ‘tobacco products’ generally throughout the bill, it is only as defined in the definitions which is ‘cigarettes’ and ‘smokeless tobacco’.

*********************
The Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act of 2009

In here are these definitions:
*****
"cigarette" includes any product that―
(a) consists wholly or partly of cut, shredded or manufactured tobacco or of any tobacco derivative or substance, rolled up in paper; and
(b) is capable of being immediately used for smoking;

"smoking", with its grammatical variations, means puffing or inhaling and expelling the smoke of any tobacco product and includes the holding of, or control over, any ignited tobacco product;

"tobacco" means any product obtained from the leaf of the Nicotiana tobacum or Nicotiana rusticum plant or other related plants;

"tobacco product" means any tobacco or cigarette or any other product the main ingredient of which is tobacco and which is designed for human consumption in any manner;
*****

'Cigarette', 'smoking' and 'tobacco product' clearly are referring to the tobacco leaf products...

In this Act, only their definition of 'tobacco' could be extended to include nic liquid ("...any product obtained from ..."); but even that would be a major stretch in the context of the rest of the Act; or, for that matter, the dictionary definition...

*****
to-bac-co  /tuh-BAK-oh/
–noun, plural -cos, -coes.
1. any of several plants belonging to the genus Nicotiana, of the nightshade family, esp. one of those species, as N. tabacum, whose leaves are prepared for smoking or chewing or as snuff.
2. the prepared leaves, as used in cigarettes, cigars, and pipes.
3. any of various similar plants of other genera.
*****

The Act is targeted at true, actual cigarettes intended to be ignited, burned and the smoke inhaled.

*********************
I think we are giving them way too much credit for being that close to new technology…

JMHO

-bogie

i was thinking about this the other day as i stared at the nicotine patches and gum at the local target. i think your interpretation is right on, the nicotine in e-juice is derived from tobacco, but that wouldn't make it a tobacco product; just as nicotine gum and patches are not considered tobacco products.
 

ladysolitary85

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i was thinking about this the other day as i stared at the nicotine patches and gum at the local target. i think your interpretation is right on, the nicotine in e-juice is derived from tobacco, but that wouldn't make it a tobacco product; just as nicotine gum and patches are not considered tobacco products.

The only problem with that is I think those products were approved by the FDA.... and I highly doubt they want to be in our favor. :(
 

AngeLsLuv

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OK Back Up!!

The Family Perversion *oop's* Prevention Act.. Oh sure when Marboro Man was on tv smoking like a cowboy in heat they didn't have any family pervention act to get kids to not smoke.. And what about them helmets.. When I was a kid no one wore helmets roller skating or riding a bike.. By the time I was 14 I was chain smoking, with one of my aunts teaching me how to inhale..

We need to go back to the gentler times..

BTW The FDA may not want to ban sodas but remember, they are trying to slap a tax on them now (according to those dang commercials).. I'm not gonna be able to vape, smoke or drink.. They are killing us!!!

OK Got a plan... We buy some patches and cut them open, then ooze out the nic juice and vape that!

I'm up for a trip to Washington today, just let me pack my oozy and I'll be set..

The friggin' mother%&*%&@#%^&&@@'s in DC have been messin' with this woman too much, time to fight!!!! :evil:
 
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CrazyTerrie11

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The only problem with that is I think those products were approved by the FDA.... and I highly doubt they want to be in our favor. :(

And since they are fda approved they are ridiculously priced. If ecigs become "approved" they will tax the crap out of them and we will not get the benefit of health AND cost effectiveness. Were gonna pay out the *** for the hardware and a bottle of juice is gonna be 25 bucks for a 15ml bottle.
 
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