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U.S.A: PACT Act 2009

Discussion in 'Law and the E-Cigarette' started by AngeLsLuv, Sep 11, 2009.

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  1. AngeLsLuv

    AngeLsLuv Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 5, 2009
    Lake Ariel, PA.
    Problems....

    1st.. E-Juice gets it's nicotine from Tobacco, so it is a tobacco product since no company will get the nicotine from a potato...

    2nd> New news (as of this minute, just received info from my old ciggie store online where I bought anologs for the past 7 years online):

    ********************************************************************
    URGENT INFORMATION!

    The Prevent All Cigarette Trafficking Act of 2009 ("PACT Act") (S.1147), which is currently before the Senate Judiciary Committee, contains a provision which would make ALL cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products nonmailable.

    The Senate Judiciary Committee will not meet this week, but is meeting the week of November 16th. It now appears that the Senate Judiciary Committee will likely approve the PACT Act at its Executive Business Meeting on November 19th. Once the PACT Act is approved by the Judiciary Committee, the Bill will move to the Senate floor where it could be voted on at any time.

    Phillip Morris USA will do everything within its power to see that this Bill is passed before the end of this year.

    At this point, we need to slow the Bill up and get it pushed into the Second Session of this Congress. With the mid-term elections taking place in 2010, it will get a little tougher to pass the PACT Act because of the distraction cause by campaigning.

    If you wish to preserve your rights and freedoms, you have to make your opinion known and your voice heard. Contact your Senators today and tell them to vote NO on S.1147, the "PACT Act"!

    HOW TO CONTACT YOUR SENATOR BY TELEPHONE:
    You can dial your Senators office using 1-800-828-0498 to be connected with a Capitol Switchboard Operator. Simply ask the Operator to connect you with your Senators Office. When you contact your Senator you do not need to identify yourself as a smoker or as someone who purchases cigarettes and/or smokeless tobacco products by mail-order, telephone-order, and/or the Internet. You only need to identify yourself as a resident of the state they represent.

    Time is crucial at this point, so a phone call is by far the best choice for contacting your Senators.
     
  2. AngeLsLuv

    AngeLsLuv Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 5, 2009
    Lake Ariel, PA.
    Sure.. Like calling your Senetor is gonna help... Ah-Hahahaha!!!
     
  3. Mooler

    Mooler Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Nov 6, 2009
    Florida
    By the people... for the people... ah nvm.
     
  4. Thyestean

    Thyestean Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 29, 2009
    Upstate NY
    If only it had ever been acted on as well as it was written.
     
  5. ZeroNullity

    ZeroNullity Full Member

    Nov 8, 2009
    Nashville, TN
    Yes if this bill passes & e-cigs/e-liquid are classifed as a tobacco product it will suck to say the least.... stock pile?
     
  6. umop apisdn

    umop apisdn Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 26, 2009
    I'm all for another American Revolution. It's about time the government learns to fear the people again. It is what the government was founded upon...
     
  7. sattec

    sattec Super Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 4, 2009
    mcallen texas
    "would make ALL cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products nonmailable"

    and some wonder why the post office can't survive ;)...We better stay on this one, it could very well be passed...
     
  8. Menville

    Menville Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 1, 2009
    Arlington,TX
    I have mailed , called , e-mailed Congress on a number of things,, as of lately about the health care and previous the stimulus and spending. I am a member of 2 liberty and freedom groups..and I am upset with our Congress and elected people ignoring the wishes of the people..I truly believe they are TRYING to get us upset and to carry pitch forks and storm the castle.. I truly believe that..I hope not..

    My ancestors left France because the revolution got to hot, that was in the 1790's and came to New Orleans( that was before N.O. was part of the US).

    My other side of the family fought in the Texas Revolution against a repressive government of Mexico.( 1836)

    Guess it's in my genes
     
  9. Menville

    Menville Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 1, 2009
    Arlington,TX
    One consolation is I live close to Blips Labs, I could walk over and pick up nicotine and still make my juice
     
  10. ladysolitary85

    ladysolitary85 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 31, 2009
    California
    This really saddens me.... Seriously, I just bought a e-cig and I am trying so hard to keep up the great work with it and stick to very little analogs.

    Is this freaking war with bans ever going to freakin end????

    Why is our freedom getting taken away???

    And why the hell, did our president... ever sign that freakin bill to begin with??? I really HATE the fact that the whole "looking out for teenagers" is being an excuse for everything! It's not the suppliers fault that teens are buying them, its the store clerks who don't card them or the adults who buys it for them. So why in the hell should we have to suffer??? Why does it ALWAYS have to be about money??? I pay my taxes I should have the right to use a e-cig if I want to!

    Am I wasting my time on trying to better my health with the e-cig and being forced to go back to my yucky alternative? I really don't want that to happen.

    As you can tell, if I wrote to my senators it wouldn't be a wise idea. I would go off and that's not the best way to go about it. I'm very frustrated right now.
     
  11. ladysolitary85

    ladysolitary85 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 31, 2009
    California
    wow, I took a breather and just reread my post... sorry guys! was venting, didn't mean to lose it. I'm sure this whole thing is getting to us all.
     
  12. AngeLsLuv

    AngeLsLuv Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 5, 2009
    Lake Ariel, PA.
    I grew up in a political family.. My mother was very active locally, state wide, and dabbled nationally on a number of campaigns.. I learned how to write by addresssing envelopes for polititians at their headquarters'....

    I am so mad at all this I can scream.. Many of us cannot go to a local store to buy e-juice or e-ciggies and would need to live near them to purchse them according to this Pact Act 2009.. The Postal Service lost $140 million from the Pact Act of 2003 alone, it will be alot worse with this Act..

    The Native Americans who make much of thier money selling tobacco products will suffer gravely from this and oh it has been fine for the Native Americans to suffer still from "The White Americans"?? Give me a break!!!! Yea I am part Powatan and don't get anything from that, Yet I'm mad!!! All Native Americans are my blood... And no.. They/We are not Indians.. That is a derogatory word/phrase in my mind..

    I did email my Senators just now.. Not like it will do anything though.. I spend much of my time online signing petitions too.. Just on Care 2, I have signed 6420 petitions since August 4, 2000, not forgetting Change.org, EarthJusticecenter Online, End The Occupation.org... Plus I click to donate on Care2, The Hinger Site,. Redjellysih.com, Ecologyfund.com, Ethics - every day at midnight...

    I'm sorry America but look at this past year.. Obama got into office claiming he would change our country for the better after the last 8 years of essentially an Imperialist Dictatorship who are kissing tushy of the Military Industrial Complex and the Bidenburg Group... He has yet to change anything and he has retained all the garbage Bush and Chaney did...

    Call me a nut but I am fed up... Tell me to go move to another country.. Oh sure I do want to move, but I don't have enough money to move anywhere.. Yeah I am online but I go without alot (even food) to be on the internet and buy E-Juice...

    Holding my e-ciggie waiting for the Secret Police to bust open my door with arms blazed to fight and/or Kkill me for opening my mouth about what has occured in this country, as our forefathers are rolling in their graves.......
     
  13. AngeLsLuv

    AngeLsLuv Super Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 5, 2009
    Lake Ariel, PA.
    Just wanted to pop in and anyone reading this can see some of us are mad about this.. I've been trying to let people know about the Pact Act 2009 for long before I goined this forum.. I tried to fight the Pact Act of 2003 too...

    Yeah we are venting but that is good for us.. We are being taken advantage of and being treated like we are 5 years old..

    Thank You to those of us who are fighters and have Freedom and Liberty in our hearts...

    In all my emails I have under my signature this:

    "They Who Would Give Up An Essential Liberty For Temporary Security,
    Deserve Neither Liberty Or Security"
    - Benjamin Franklin

    **Footnote**

    On this e-ciggie forum and another one I am on.. How many people are usijg e-ciggies and think that the nicotine is not made from tobacco?? I am sick of that to.. I posted this and I've got "children" who are trying to say that electronic cigaretee juice is liquid, and is not made by tobacco at all. I supose they think that the juice is made out of potatos or some room veggie... I would have thought that those who used tobacco of any kind, knew where it came from, and would not fight, and try to attack those who have been trying to help or assist them, and warn them about what's going on...
     
  14. MBK

    MBK Full Member

    Nov 5, 2009
    Chicago
    I glimpsed through the bill and this is what I think it means:

    1.) Cigarettes and smokeless tobacco cannot be mailed through the USPS.

    2.) All taxes must be paid to the proper regulatory body before delivery.

    3.) The delivery box must be clearly labled that it contains tobacco products.

    4.) Age verication must be made and recorded both prior to sale and at receipt of delivery (you must sign for the package).

    To me, this means, online retailers can still ship product, but they must collect and pay tax on what they sell, as well as no longer ship through the USPS but through Common Carriers only and require age verication as well as signature at delivery? Did anyone else read/skim through the bill and come to a different conclusion?
     
  15. MBK

    MBK Full Member

    Nov 5, 2009
    Chicago
    Here is the language from the House Bill (Senate Bill is the same I think) regarding Delivery:

    `(d) Delivery-

    `(1) IN GENERAL- Except as provided in paragraph (2), no delivery seller may sell or deliver to any consumer, or tender to any common carrier or other delivery service, any cigarettes or smokeless tobacco pursuant to a delivery sale unless, in advance of the sale, delivery, or tender--

    `(A) any cigarette or smokeless tobacco excise tax that is imposed by the State in which the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are to be delivered has been paid to the State;

    `(B) any cigarette or smokeless tobacco excise tax that is imposed by the local government of the place in which the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco are to be delivered has been paid to the local government; and

    `(C) any required stamps or other indicia that the excise tax has been paid are properly affixed or applied to the cigarettes or smokeless tobacco.

    `(2) EXCEPTION- Paragraph (1) does not apply to a delivery sale of smokeless tobacco if the law of the State or local government of the place where the smokeless tobacco is to be delivered requires or otherwise provides that delivery sellers collect the excise tax from the consumer and remit the excise tax to the State or local government, and the delivery seller complies with the requirement.


    here's the language on shipping, a bit longer but details the requirements that need to be met before shipment can take place:

    `(b) Shipping and Packaging-

    `(1) REQUIRED STATEMENT- For any shipping package containing cigarettes or smokeless tobacco, the delivery seller shall include on the bill of lading, if any, and on the outside of the shipping package, on the same surface as the delivery address, a clear and conspicuous statement providing as follows: `CIGARETTES/SMOKELESS TOBACCO: FEDERAL LAW REQUIRES THE PAYMENT OF ALL APPLICABLE EXCISE TAXES, AND COMPLIANCE WITH APPLICABLE LICENSING AND TAX-STAMPING OBLIGATIONS'.

    `(2) FAILURE TO LABEL- Any shipping package described in paragraph (1) that is not labeled in accordance with that paragraph shall be treated as nondeliverable matter by a common carrier or other delivery service, if the common carrier or other delivery service knows or should know the package contains cigarettes or smokeless tobacco. If a common carrier or other delivery service believes a package is being submitted for delivery in violation of paragraph (1), it may require the person submitting the package for delivery to establish that it is not being sent in violation of paragraph (1) before accepting the package for delivery. Nothing in this paragraph shall require the common carrier or other delivery service to open any package to determine its contents.

    `(3) WEIGHT RESTRICTION- A delivery seller shall not sell, offer for sale, deliver, or cause to be delivered in any single sale or single delivery any cigarettes or smokeless tobacco weighing more than 10 pounds.

    `(4) AGE VERIFICATION-

    `(A) IN GENERAL- A delivery seller who mails or ships tobacco products--

    `(i) shall not sell, deliver, or cause to be delivered any tobacco products to a person under the minimum age required for the legal sale or purchase of tobacco products, as determined by the applicable law at the place of delivery;

    `(ii) shall use a method of mailing or shipping that requires--

    `(I) the purchaser placing the delivery sale order, or an adult who is at least the minimum age required for the legal sale or purchase of tobacco products, as determined by the applicable law at the place of delivery, to sign to accept delivery of the shipping container at the delivery address; and

    `(II) the person who signs to accept delivery of the shipping container to provide proof, in the form of a valid, government-issued identification bearing a photograph of the individual, that the person is at least the minimum age required for the legal sale or purchase of tobacco products, as determined by the applicable law at the place of delivery; and

    `(iii) shall not accept a delivery sale order from a person without--

    `(I) obtaining the full name, birth date, and residential address of that person; and

    `(II) verifying the information provided in subclause (I), through the use of a commercially available database or aggregate of databases, consisting primarily of data from government sources, that are regularly used by government and businesses for the purpose of age and identity verification and authentication, to ensure that the purchaser is at least the minimum age required for the legal sale or purchase of tobacco products, as determined by the applicable law at the place of delivery.

    `(B) LIMITATION- No database being used for age and identity verification under subparagraph (A)(iii) shall be in the possession or under the control of the delivery seller, or be subject to any changes or supplementation by the delivery seller.

    the bill specifically addresses cigarettes and smokeless tobacco products, which may include the e-juice, but I don't think it mentions anything about paraphernalia, which would include the batteries, atomizers, empty carts etc... from the definitions section:

    `(12) SMOKELESS TOBACCO- The term `smokeless tobacco' means any finely cut, ground, powdered, or leaf tobacco, or other product containing tobacco, that is intended to be placed in the oral or nasal cavity or otherwise consumed without being combusted.

    like water pipes and rolling papers, i am pretty sure the parts of the e-cig are paraphernalia, and i don't see that banned anywhere?
     
  16. ladysolitary85

    ladysolitary85 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 31, 2009
    California
    If they want to tax it whatever I don't care at this point, but I don't want it banned. I want the option to continue my e-cig. Do I think its right and far of them to tax it? no, but if I had to choose between them taxing it or banning it, I'd say tax it.

    Let us all hope that it still cheaper for us in the long run.

    When does the new mailing rule take effect?
     
  17. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    Both versions of the PACT are currently in their respective Judiciary Committees from what I'm getting out of Thomas. I've heard it said that bills quite often die in committee...
     
  18. ladysolitary85

    ladysolitary85 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 31, 2009
    California
    So you saying you don't think it would pass?
     
  19. TropicalBob

    TropicalBob Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jan 13, 2008
    Port Charlotte, FL USA
    Look at the full House vote. Overwhelming approval! It would pass in the Senate, too. But it might not make it out of committee this session, which means it would have to start over again in the next session. Death by committee is the fate of many bills.

    This one is not about what YOU want. It's about getting taxes into state coffers. It's a popular bill among politicians at every level. Your desires mean nothing to them this time around. You're just another miscreant seeking to avoid taxes by ordering online and having the government postal service deliver to you.

    This is due for committee discussion again in, I believe, six days. But as was the case last week, the bill might not be considered.
     
  20. olderthandirt

    olderthandirt Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 28, 2009
    Willamette Valley, PNW
    I posted the most recent votes from both versions a couple of pages back. Scary that this would have be the piece of legislation both sides agree on.

    T Bob, anybody, help an old guy out here. I'm trying to learn how best to use Thomas, GovTrack, as well as the "official" House and Senate sites to better stay abreast of what's going on.

    I have not succeeded in finding when either bill is supposed to be up for consideration. I've been trying to wade through the various schedules and all...

    Direction? I keep hitting dead ends...
     
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