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Update:ny child dies of nicotine poisoning.

Discussion in 'Media and General News' started by skoony, Dec 29, 2014.

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  1. skoony

    skoony Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Jul 31, 2013
    saint paul,mn,usa
    i called the Fort Plain Police Dept. today and talked with a SGT. there.
    apparently the investigation is ongoing. he did tell me though the coroners
    initial findings was that death was do to nicotine poisoning.
    i attempted to contact the coroner and was redirected to voice mail.
    i left my name and number and requested to be contacted on when and how
    i could obtain a copy of the final report.
    perusing their local news and googling i have found no reference to any
    preliminary reports concerning this incident.
    i did find a initial story which said ,
    "Police are calling the event a
    “tragic accident” and haven’t said if the nicotine was linked with an e-cigarette gadget.".
    so i am assuming the question was asked.
    that's all i know so far. i'll pass along any more info i coe across
  2. readeuler

    readeuler Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 17, 2014
    Ohio, USA
    Fine sleuthing, skoony. Still a tragedy, it will be very interesting seeing how this plays out, and what (if anything) else comes forward.

    Thanks for the update.
  3. pennysmalls

    pennysmalls Squonkmeister Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 26, 2013
    Wow skoony it's great that your staying on top of this. I'd rather the vape community not be blindsided by more bad publicity in the near future but it looks like that may happen. With you staying on top of it at least we'll see it coming.
  4. sofarsogood

    sofarsogood Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Oct 12, 2014
    I have been highly skeptical from the start that a child died drinking consumer eliquid. Am I correct that 1.2 mg nic means 1.2%? In a 30ml bottle that would be very little nic.

    The news people like to say that there must be a nic poisoning problem because there have been lots of calls to poison hot lines. There is no report about how many of those went to the emergency room or how many of those required more than observation.

    In the mean time some useful news. I asked the clerk at my local vape shop about quit rate. He believes that at least 80% of his customers who start with a competent rig ($50-80) become non smokers. And important to me, I started my brother vaping Christmas day (gave him an N mini on an Istick). Today he calls and reports he's doing 4 cigs a day, exactly what happened to me at that point, and he's excited. By the time I headed home on sunday I could see he was vaping for the nic. (He holds the rig with two hands like it was a flute, funny.)
  5. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member

    Where are you getting the 1.2 figure from? 1.2 likely refers to a percentage, and accordingly translates to 12mg/ml. A 30 ml bottle would, therefore, contain 360mg or 6 times the amount required to kill an adult under the old LD50 estimates.

    These have, of course, since been adjusted upwards to over 500mg for adults (conservative estimate). But it's essential to note that this is for adults only.

    I don't know if there's any work that can determine whether there's a linear response to nicotine in children and adults (based on weight), and in the absence of any evidence I'd assume not.

    But, even assuming a linear response let's do the math: 160 pounds average adult weight, 21 pounds average 1 year-old weight: 500 mg adult LD50 = 67mg (apprx) 1-year old LD50.

    So 6ml of 1.2% eliquid is sufficient to kill half of one-year olds who ingest it.

    Lots of caveats in this calculation - it's purely illustrative and not meant to set any kind of real estimate - but it does show that extreme caution should be exercised by parents, and we should not take the seriousness of the dangers of nicotine lightly. I don't think anyone should consider it impossible for a child to swallow 10ml or more of e-liquid.
  6. carrielsal

    carrielsal Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 27, 2013
    Central Texas
  7. Frenchfry1942

    Frenchfry1942 Chillin' Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2014
    Like anything else that smells/tastes good, juice is something to keep away from kids. Sad to hear.
  8. edyle

    edyle ECF Guru Verified Member ECF Veteran

    In the week before this incident report there was the Dr Oz episode which repeatedly claimed that eliquid was 'liquid nicotine'.
    The report about the child death claimed that the child ingested 'liquid nicotine'.

    The difference between 'consumer eliquid' and 'liquid nicotine' is immense.

    12mg/ml eliquid contains 1.2% nicotine.
  9. carrielsal

    carrielsal Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 27, 2013
    Central Texas
    Liquid nicotine could be as high as 100mg/ml.
  10. Oliver

    Oliver ECF Founder, formerly SmokeyJoe Admin Verified Member

    I may be reading this incorrectly, but it seems to me that this would require cartomizers to be packaged in childproof containers also?
  11. bigdancehawk

    bigdancehawk Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 27, 2010
    Kansas City, Missouri
    Probably not applicable to disposable sealed cartomizers, as it would only apply to containers which have "an opening that is accessible through normal and reasonably foreseeable use by a consumer."
  12. carrielsal

    carrielsal Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 27, 2013
    Central Texas
    Reading through the bill, I would assume this could potentially refer not only to eLiquids, but pre-filled cartomizers and liquid nic used for mixing.
  13. Painter_

    Painter_ Super Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 21, 2013
    In my happy place
    The highest a person can buy is 999 mg / ml. It is hard to find but it is out there. RTS is one of the vendors that sell it that high. It has disclaimers that it is for lab use and not consumer use.

    [link removed]
  14. SonHouse

    SonHouse Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jul 7, 2013
    Why would you assume that there wasn't a linear response? It would seem linear response would be the most likely candidate in the absence of any mechanism which would make a difference. Just curious.
  15. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
  16. e-pipeman

    e-pipeman Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Oct 16, 2008
    Brown Edge, England
    Hmm. I normally subscribe to the view that we should act responsibly and keep dangerous things out of the reach of children. This goes all the way from guns and knives through to household bleach, butane canisters, and indeed cigarettes. Dangers lurk everywhere for kids - but does that mean that we should cover all unused power sockets to prevent them from putting scissors in them? Should all kitchen cupboards be padlocked? The cat declawed?

    Once we get past "don't leave dangerous stuff (including eliquid) lying around" I'm not sure what more people can or should do.
  17. zoiDman

    zoiDman My -0^10 = Nothing at All* ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 16, 2010
    When does concept of Limitation of Legal Liability come into play when the topic of CRP (Child Resistant Packaging) come up?
  18. e-pipeman

    e-pipeman Vaping Master ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Oct 16, 2008
    Brown Edge, England
    Not quite sure what you mean - forgive me. I don't think there's anything wrong with the idea of selling e-liquid with child-resistant caps on bottles, but there may be many adults with arthritic fingers who disagree with that statement. If they transfer the liquid to an easy-open bottle would that make them negligent? Probably not - unless they then gave the bottle to a child to play with. Which would be quite unforgivable imho.
  19. Freshair

    Freshair Full Member

    Oct 16, 2014
    Raleigh, NC
    This is tragic. I don't have children, but I do have two very curious greyhound boys. All of my e-liquid (as well as all of my vape gear) is stored in a room they never go into in a cabinet above where they can reach.
  20. Kevin littell

    Kevin littell Super Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 24, 2011
    Covington Ga
    This assumes that we are actually responsible for our actions......

    Which is not in the current Legislative agenda.
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