Upper power limit (for avoiding burnt coils / wicks)

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Mysteron

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Posting this here just in case anyone else finds it useful:

Recently I had some discussion on a Thai vape forum about trying to establish a rough power at which self built coils on an rda / rta would be almost certain to give a burnt coil or wick. I had looked at all variations of ohms law and online resources such as Steam but they were all focussed on filling in an unknown variable when you know 2 other parts of the equation. Nothing about "at what power is it pretty certain you will get a burnt coil / wick from overheating". Can't do it by watts because 20w on one build might be the same as 100 on another. Resistance also can't be used. The only other advice I found, which of course IS correct, was start off low and work up to a flavour you like. But I still thought there must be SOME general guideline you can use as an upper limit, like a red line on a rev counter, to be be sure your build won't burn.

I was pointed in the direction of volts by a helpful poster on the Thai forum who said he worked on setting the mod to draw max 5 volts, just as a rough guide. 5v I find works for me too but, at least with the builds I'm using at the moment, while I can go up to 5v, I find it borderline too hot and too sweet (with fruit juices) so I have settled on 5v as being the absolute maximum (like a red line on a rev counter) but tend to find the max for me is around 4/4+ (into the amber), with a few builds vaping well even at 3+. Of course I might not always want to vape drawing as high as 5 volts, it just gives a good starting point as an upper limit guide.

I find the 4-5v guideline really useful when I'm changing tanks or putting in a new build, a quick press of the fire button will immediately show the volts being drawn and whether I need to drop the wattage down or raise it to get within the safe zone for vaping or bedding the coils in (which I do at way below the power they might ultimately be able to take but at a power that's not so low it has zero heating effect).

I did originally think the equation wouldn't work well with clearo coils where the manufacturer, in my limited experience, stamps the recommended wattage range on the coil along with the resistance. At the moment though, I'm trying one of those rated at 0.8 where iLeaf have the wattage at 30-100. I've taken it to 50 and seriously, beyond that I'm sure it would burn, but I guess that will depend on the juice but I really can't see how you could vape them at even close to 100!! I'm guessing the upper is more of a safety limit than something you would wish to vape at. At the moment I find I'm vaping it at about 4v for the best flavour, so maybe it does work after all.

Be interested to see if anyone is using builds where the guideline falls down, aside from clearo tanks using the cartridge drop-in coils.
 
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Mysteron

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Yeah there may well be builds where it will fall down. Will doubtless come across them as I experiment more. Thanks for the pointer. I guess at the moment it maybe just working for builds / coils (such as pre-built claptons / aliens) that I'm likely to use. I don't think I have a tank capable of taking a 16 wrap coil, are there any?
 
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Heat capacity is the great equalizer you're looking for. Heat capacity is the amount of energy it takes to heat an object one degree Celsius. The greater the object (coil) mass, the more energy (Watts, Joules) it takes to heat it.

The voltage and Watts you need are all dependent on it and it's why coil resistance means absolutely nothing with variable regulated devices (unless you're using temperature control).

Fire a Protank coil at 20 Watts and it will be destroyed. Fire a TFV8 Beast coil at 20 Watts and it won't even say "hello."

Use the link @Ionori posted above. It will calculate coil mass, heat capacity and heat flux for almost any build you want.
 

Asbestos4004

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Im grateful a good vape is more important to me than the numbers. In the rare event I'm using a regulated mod, I start low and work up until it works the way I want it to. I have no interest in recommendations or suggested power settings....nor do I care what Bob runs an identical build at. The only burnt hits I get are my fault. Either bad wicking or forgetting to squonk .
 

stols001

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Too many variables to say.

The best you can do is calculate out a build that you THINK will suit you, and yes, steam engine will also allow you to input exotic builds and etc.

But with a rebuildable,. yes, ohm's and mass certainly matter, but everyone is so different there really is no (reasonable) way to tell you how to avoid short (wick not coil, you should be able to dry burn and clean your coils, regardless, unless they are nickel or titanium and really SS should be gently pulsed and cleaned, rather than simply dry burned, although some folks do, and it's truly debatable whether more caution is needed with SS, I err on the side of caution though).

If you are seeking high wattage, well rayon compared to cotton (IMHO as always) may be able to withstand higher power levels and last longer than cotton. So if you are going for "incredibly high watts" that may be your best wick option. (Rayon is also not for everyone although I am personally a fan.)

Really, the best way is to build, see what you start liking, and continue honing your build to get what you desire. If you want drop in coils, well many seem to offer different longevity and wattage ranges. You can stay BELOW the max recommended wattage for a coil. At or above may shorten coil life too.

Then, also, your liquids play a role. Sweet, dark, or gunky (high VG, NET, WTA liquids) all add gunking factors.

Chain vaping (outside of TC) can also kill coils faster, everything gets overheated faster and this can decrease coil life.

Best of luck with your experiments!

Anna
 

Mysteron

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Too many variables to say.

The best you can do is calculate out a build that you THINK will suit you, and yes, steam engine will also allow you to input exotic builds and etc.

But with a rebuildable,. yes, ohm's and mass certainly matter, but everyone is so different there really is no (reasonable) way to tell you how to avoid short (wick not coil, you should be able to dry burn and clean your coils, regardless, unless they are nickel or titanium and really SS should be gently pulsed and cleaned, rather than simply dry burned, although some folks do, and it's truly debatable whether more caution is needed with SS, I err on the side of caution though).

If you are seeking high wattage, well rayon compared to cotton (IMHO as always) may be able to withstand higher power levels and last longer than cotton. So if you are going for "incredibly high watts" that may be your best wick option. (Rayon is also not for everyone although I am personally a fan.)

Really, the best way is to build, see what you start liking, and continue honing your build to get what you desire. If you want drop in coils, well many seem to offer different longevity and wattage ranges. You can stay BELOW the max recommended wattage for a coil. At or above may shorten coil life too.

Then, also, your liquids play a role. Sweet, dark, or gunky (high VG, NET, WTA liquids) all add gunking factors.

Chain vaping (outside of TC) can also kill coils faster, everything gets overheated faster and this can decrease coil life.

Best of luck with your experiments!

Anna
4 volts flowing through a 4 wrap 22 gauge coil (burn city) is totally different from 4 volts flowing through quadruple 16 wrap 22 gauge coils (barely any vapor). You need to calculate the heat flux.

My interest in numbers is both academic and practical (for me anyways). I'm interested in trying to find rough guidelines for applying to the various builds I might try so I'm building with a desired end state in mind, in terms of flavour and efficiency. Plus, if I can get a build that produces flavour in a way that burns through batteries (and even juice, coils and wicks) more efficiently, that's of interest to me too. Others may not be interested in numbers, fair enough. How each of us attempts to get the flavours we like is also up to the individual however. Personally I prefer to get there with my throat gagging as little as possible on burnt juice / wicks. Plus, if numbers weren't of any importance to anyone, there'd be little need for sites like Steam. Some folks will be bothered / interested, some won't.

There's an app called Micro Coil Calculator for Android, once you enter all the parameters it has a Calculate Optimal button which then pulls up a green/amber/red scale, I'm guessing that's using Heat Flux to guide you as to where the limits might be for various voltages.

The info provided by others above is very useful. I can see where the 4-5v guideline could fall down, albeit with the builds I'm doing it hasn't fallen down yet, and maybe is not likely to do so. Using the Heat Flux reading on Steam in light of what others have said above what I'm finding is that with different builds on different tanks the Heat Flux reading at which I seem to consistently get the flavour and heat that I like is around the 100 mark so I'm very grateful for the additional information and guidance being given above. It's also really interesting for me to see how a poor flavour / burnt wick is related to the numbers too, that way I can build different / better next time. I'm grateful that getting a good vape for me is more interesting than just dropping in random builds that might or might not deliver and I'll use whatever tools I can to help getting there.
 
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Mysteron

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Temp Control is going to be about the only way to do something like this.

Yeah I might have a play with that next. I have a load of SS316L on order. I thought you could only use SS with TC, but I've had several folks tell me they use VW with SS too?

With all this testing I think I might need to order juice in gallon drums LOL.
 
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stols001

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Yes, SS can be used in either wattage or temperature control. It can be kind of handy to get a sense of what wattage works well for your SS build, and to use that wattage (or close to it) to set up wattage ramp up for TC. Depending on how warm you like your vape will really determine your ceiling (usually at or below 420 is considered the highest safe "temp" zone, but I am a MTL vaper and set mine far lower. Etc.

Good luck,

Anna
 
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Mysteron

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The only way youre gonna find this number on your set up is to sacrifice a coil and wick. Jack that puppy up til it tastes really nasty, stop and look at what watt setting youre at. And that would be the limit for that device. And your tastebuds.

It's a way for sure, but not the only way IMO. I've been able to successfully get to the highest powers I'd like to experience without burning wicks / coils (something I prefer to avoid doing even once) simply by now knowing the ranges at which I get satisfactory builds and at what power to use them. Sure ramping up the power to the max will give the result you say, but I don't need to do that, I already know at what stage it's likely to happen.
 

Imfallen_Angel

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I stopped a long time ago caring/worrying about such things since I've only been using regulated mods.

I simply build according to what fits well in the RTA I use and then play with my mod's settings until it's all good for me.

But, I also use temp. control almost always, using SS26 gauge at my standard wire, and my coils end up in the range of 0.2 to 0.9ohms, either single or dual.

My mods are always set at around 50-60W, but rarely even reach that wattage as it's more about the settings of the temp control that matters.

It's a question that unless you're using a mech, the regulated mods can do just about anything, especially with a built deck.

It's more about the experience that you get and no amount of calculation is going to really do much, as the many factors come in play, such as the coil size, its resistance, the metal type, it's gauge, and then the deck/tank itself, how the airflow is done on it, from bottom, side or top, how big the airflow is, and then the bell's size, the chimney, how you do your pulls (how hard you suck on it), then the wicking, if you get it right, if you don't, how the wicking approach of the deck/tank is, and then the liquid itself were some or better at lower heat while others need higher heat.

It's not about how how your power is, it's about what actually works well for you.. some will be happy at 20W with a cooler vape, some doing only MTL with closed airflow, while someone else might open the airflow full and do DL at 60W with the exact same tank.

But from your post, it appears that you're trying to sort out the power balance for a mech mod, and that's another game completely. Everything I stated about the factors are the same, but then you have to take it very seriously and study about how the metal/coil is all about, as if you don't do it right, you will have a bad situation that's going to happen at some point. You should be looking for the does and don't for mechs if that's how you're planning to go. And most cartridge type tanks aren't really meant for mech vaping. I know that I wouldn't trust a manufacture cartridge on a mech.

And if you aren't talking about mechs and don't understand the wattage and believe that voltage is better, then you should consider finding full instructions about vaping under that approach as your better to follow such instructions than trying to guess and asking questions here that will simply be guesses as there's simply too many factors in play to really have anyone give you a perfect answer.

And of course one build/cartridge will take 50W and another may need 100W for the same experience, as again, they are completely built differently... but that applies to any sort of coil you use. I can build a 0.5 single coil and a dual deck that's also 0.5 but the settings will be quite different because there's a very different metal mass, and if on different tank, it's becomes a completely different approach to take.

You need to concentrate on the actual experience and how it feels to you, and balance your settings accordingly. You'll never find a magic voltage that will work on everything.
 

ScottP

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One thing I should point out is that the variables inside the atty are always changing. So X watts with lots of af and plenty of juice may be great, but on a long pull if the juice flow can't keep up You can still end up with a burnt wick. As gunk builds up on the coil it can also cause problems too. All this to say, that the max watts will decrease on each pull as juice evaporates and also as the coil and wicking ages.
 

Imfallen_Angel

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Yes, SS can be used in either wattage or temperature control. It can be kind of handy to get a sense of what wattage works well for your SS build, and to use that wattage (or close to it) to set up wattage ramp up for TC. Depending on how warm you like your vape will really determine your ceiling (usually at or below 420 is considered the highest safe "temp" zone, but I am a MTL vaper and set mine far lower. Etc.

Good luck,

Anna
Hi Anna,

Just wanted to note that the whole 420F on any mod is actually not something that means anything. I know some on here went all "weekend scientist" about such things, but the truth is, temp control is about the resistance flux of the metal. And all the factors that are at play kills this notion that if you set your mod at 400F, that you're vaping at such a temperature... you simply are not.

For example.. I have two different mods, two different tanks, one is set at 50W, 240F, with a single coil deck @0.89ohm. The other is a dual @ 23ohm, 60W and at 400F. The experience (warmth and vape production) is completely the same (aside the factors of airflow, etc.). Heck, I could make a tank hot enough at 240F/20W to cook an egg on it, and another at 400F/50W be very cool to the touch.

It's all about the TRC curve, and that setting is only a cut-off of when the coil reaches that resistance level, not about actual vapor heat.. heck, the vaporizing temp of liquid is around 300F and cools very fast as anything above 140F hitting your mouth would burn you (and at 140F it's pretty much the limit that most people would be able to handle at the extreme range).

Basically, the liquid could never reach 420F, it's gone and left that hot coil a long time ago.
 

stols001

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Well, the one DNA mod I have, if I set it to 420 degrees, it GOES there (or it seems like it) after one slow priming puff. It's certainly possible I didn't set it up correctly, but I have had that experience if I leave my temperatures too high. So, IDK. It's probably me, not my mod, but setting it up in the right TC and using that ceiling didn't work, at least on that mod. I should probably try it in another mod to see if it's across the board and etc.

Anna
 
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