Vaping and Cartiovascular Disease - What will my Cardiologist Say?

[Exchaner]

I don't have heart disease but I found my doctor was more excepting of the ecig when I referred it as my NRT. I just read these post and hearing of others with heart disease doing better vaping, I would hope that if your doctor is negative about the ecig that you don't fall into that trap. The prove is right here that yes there is a risk but others in the same boat as you are doing well!

There is no question that eCigs are safer than cigarettes. But here is my question: If smoking is hazardous to your health, how does that prove vaping is safe?

 

[cbrite]

See my edit to the post, taken from the abstract. Sorry, I thought it had pasted in. As I stated the study was primarily direct toward NRT, but the quoted study involved breathing nicotine.

 

[Exchaner]

See my edit to the post, taken from the abstract. Sorry, I thought it had pasted in. As I stated the study was primarily direct toward NRT, but the quoted study involved breathing nicotine.

Could you send the page# for the abstract? Thanks.

 

[cbrite]

Here is the link to the abstract of the study with the rats--all that is there is the abstract and you need to pay to get the article, so far as I can tell.

Long-term effects of inhaled nicotine. [Life Sci. 1996] - PubMed - NCBI

The study is discussed briefly in the previous link, about halfway down the first page.

 

[wv2win]

I have posted my sources in another thread and will post them here again as soon as I gather them up. (In the meantime check WebMd for the study on lung cancer.) I am skeptical however of changing anyone's mind because nicotine and vaping to some people is like a religion. They believe in it without question and automatically reject anything to the contrary. You appear to be one of them - calling people ignorant just because their view point doesn't match yours.... Get an education. There is a lot of misinformation being spread on the ECF primarily by the Vaping interests for obvious reasons.... And BTW as long as you are asking others to quote their sources, perhaps you should start doing the same - who is your cardiologist, and whose payroll is he on?

Oh, please, stop playing games. It's way too obvious. I used the term "ignorant" because you referenced no credible support for your statements. Saying it is in "another thread" doesn't cut it. Asking me to name on a public forum a personal doctors information is again, just game playing by you. No one, without prior consent, would be so unethical, well accept, obviously maybe you, since you ask me to do it.

And if you are referring to the "nicotine and cell structure" presentation (not a study) that was recently sited here on ECF, it was thoroughly debunked by several well informed ECF posters as well as Bill Godshaw. So hopefully you are not using that very thin on facts presentation. ( http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-comes-big-one-e-cigs-linked-c-n-c-e-r-5.html) And since WebMD has been anti-vaping dating back several years and have close ties with the Big Pharmaceutical industry, their information is quite suspect.

And if you are using any so-called "study" by Stan Glantz, well, that is just

But then we don't know, since you failed to back up your statements.

 

[Exchaner]

It will take me some time to read the whole article. In the meantime I noticed a difference in methodology between your article and mine. One takes the empirical approach, and the other a forensic one - by examining chemical reactions in individual cells. Who knows how long it will take for cancer to develop. I actually know one person who developed lung cancer 15 years AFTER he quit smoking.

 

[Exchaner]

Oh, please, stop playing games. It's way too obvious. I used the term "ignorant" because you referenced no credible support for your statements. Saying it is in "another thread" doesn't cut it. Asking me to name on a public forum a personal doctors information is again, just game playing by you. No one, without prior consent, would be so unethical, well accept, obviously maybe you, since you ask me to do it.

And if you are referring to the "nicotine and cell structure" presentation (not a study) that was recently sited here on ECF, it was thoroughly debunked by several well informed ECF posters as well as Bill Godshaw. So hopefully you are not using that very thin on facts presentation. ( http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...-comes-big-one-e-cigs-linked-c-n-c-e-r-5.html) And since WebMD has been anti-vaping dating back several years and have close ties with the Big Pharmaceutical industry, their information is quite suspect.

And if you are using any so-called "study" by Stan Glantz, well, that is just

But then we don't know, since you failed to back up your statements.

Huffing and puffing will not prove your point.... Read my articles and then tell me what if anything is wrong with them... But first you will need the basic intellect necessary to grasp the fine points involved, if you catch my drift... But then again you're probably one of those who deny climate change regardless of how much evidence they are given. I am done arguing with you. Good luck.

 

[IceCreamMan]

Huffing and puffing does not prove your point.... Read my articles first, and then tell me what if anything you found wrong with them... But first you need the intellect necessary to analyze the fine points involved. You're probably one of those people denying climate change as well. I am done arguing with you. Good luck.

With all due respect, your articles are junk filled herp de durp.



OP, here is specific research relating to your question-

snip-
"Electronic cigarette use does not cause any immediate adverse effects on coronary circulation and oxygen supply to the heart, according to a new study presented today in the European Society of Cardiology annual congress in Amsterdam. Researchers at Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, lead by principle investigator Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos, evaluated the effects of electronic cigarette [...]"

Electronic cigarettes: no adverse effects on blood and oxygen supply to the heart | ClearStream by FlavourArt

 

[DC2]

Here are some others I didn't see yet...
VPLive Vape Team Episode #25: Proof Positive - YouTube
Chi-Ming Hai is a liar – nicotine does not cause measurable risk of CVD | Anti-THR Lies and related topics

 

[Exchaner]

With all due respect, your articles are junk filled herp de durp.



OP, here is specific research relating to your question-

snip-
"Electronic cigarette use does not cause any immediate adverse effects on coronary circulation and oxygen supply to the heart, according to a new study presented today in the European Society of Cardiology annual congress in Amsterdam. Researchers at Onassis Cardiac Surgery Center, lead by principle investigator Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos, evaluated the effects of electronic cigarette [...]"

Electronic cigarettes: no adverse effects on blood and oxygen supply to the heart | ClearStream by FlavourArt

Junk? Hardly. One article is a scientific report by the prestigious Cancer Institute. The other one cites several well known researchers. Just as I predicted, a lot of vapers would get upset just because I am questioning their addiction.... And we see several perfect examples right here on this thread. Peace. Out. I won't be reading this thread any longer - a complete waste of time.

 

[CKCalmer]

Here is one of the studies I was referring to. It was conducted by the Cancer Institute; indicates nicotine is a cancer ACCELATOR:

NCI Statement on Nicotine Study in January JCI - National Cancer Institute

Here is another article on the harmful effects of deadly fertilizers used in growing tobacco - the source of nicotine we are inhaling.

Radioactive tobacco | Department of Nuclear Engineering

The first thing I do when provided with possible evidence to support a claim is to confirm the source. The links you provided are from the NIH and UC Berkeley, both of which I would trust. Then the date of the information. Of the reports you link, one is 11 years old and the other is 12 years old. As Robin pointed out, those studies are almost certainly too old to still be considered valid to the topic at hand.

Your sources seem generally trustworthy, but do you have anything newer from them?

My hunch is that newer studies will confirm what Robin pointed out - that "tobacco" and "nicotine" were practically considered the same thing back then, because the only popular source of any significant amount of nicotine was tobacco. That's obviously not the case any more.

 

[ppeeble]

......Which is why i always answer with ' inform yourself and then make your own decision'.
I have read so many claims and rebuttals on vaping that the only sensible answer to any question regarding the effects of vaping is 'no-one knows'.
If vaping is used as an alternative to smoking then, on balance, most people believe it is much safer. If the choice is smoking or vaping then the vast majority would recommend vaping.
I never recommend vaping to non smokers the same as i would not recommend bungee jumping. I believe the risk is small but at the present time the risk is not quantifiable.

I'm just waiting for the report that says vaping is GOOD for your health. That will really get the debates going.

 

[Ken_A]

The link to the video did not work, but a cursory look at the report clearly indicates it is very "unscientific". I hate to be a party pooper, but While it is true that vaping is the safer alternative, it has several draw-backs of its own. To start with, although Nicotine is not a carcinogen, it does something to cells that makes them susceptible to cancer....(From a study by none other than the Cancer Institute) Nicotine has also been linked to emphysema and gum disease in various other studies. Tobacco leaves from which nicotine is derived, carry deadly chemicals from the fertilizers used to grow them. And last but not leasts, many of the chemicals that go into the liquids we vape are unknown. Some of them were made for cooking, not vaping. Some contain diacetyl, acetoine, and other deadly compounds. I probably will get a lot of negative reactions for my remarks, but hey, it's a free country and talking is free.

Don't know why the link didn't work
try this one
Dr. Konstantinos Farsalinos at ESC2012 - The Effects of Electronic Cigarettes on Myocardial Function - YouTube

as for the slideshow, your DR should understand the numbers very well. and it is FAR from an amature presentation and accompanies the VERY scientific study.
Dr Konstantinos Farsalinos is a highly respected cardiologist and researcher.


EDIT: wow - you would think that Exchaner was an ANTZ or something based on some of the hot replies... Calm down everyone. don't sling names around and let's stay logical.

@Exchaner: I'm not seeing any studies within the past 5 years that indicate that nicotine is an accelerator for cancer that have not been proven incorrect by a pier review. However, it IS a vascualr constrictor so your blood pressure will elevate slightly (see that video for the information and the slides for the data)
Therefore, if you have high-blood pressure, or meniere's, or any other condition that can be affected by Nicotine use you may want to get the data on what it does to YOU and discuss with your doctor.

I also don't know of any studies that can state one way or another the effect of nicotine on pregnancy, so would not recommend it's use in that case either.

 

[CKCalmer]

......Which is why i always answer with ' inform yourself and then make your own decision'.

The onus is with the claimant. When I make a claim, I am obligated to prove it, retract it or lose credibility. The same goes for everyone else.

I have read so many claims and rebuttals on vaping that the only sensible answer to any question regarding the effects of vaping is 'no-one knows'.

But do you know the collective knowledge of every human being? If not, then you wouldn't know that "no one knows". Maybe no one knows, or maybe someone knows and has not yet shared that fact.

I'm just waiting for the report that says vaping is GOOD for your health. That will really get the debates going.

With so many people making so many unsubstantiated claims about vaping, we have plenty to debate already.

 

[Anubuk]

We need to stop jumping down each others throats when we don't like what someone else posts. Yes sometimes things get posted that might not have been fully vetted, it happens. I keep noticing some people on this forum are quick to get angry if someone posts something that might not make e cigs look good, whether it is true or not. How does that look to new members? That kind of behavior drives us apart when we need to stick together. We have a right to express our opinions but the way we express our opinions is important.

There are things about e-cigs that all of us should be informed about and should ask questions about. Also doctors make mistakes and do not always give out the best advice. We can not expect doctors to be in the know about every medical study let alone vaping studies. I am not disagreeing with anyone here or trying to say someone is wrong. See, I wrote that because it is a good chance that someone will take offense when no offense was meant.

I am continuously combing the internet for answers verifying the safety of e-cigs. Yes they are safer than cigarettes but there is alot we don't know and won't know until more time passes.

i am very happy i started vaping and have no plans to stop anytime soon. Yet I am always researching for the safest way to vape (choices of coils and wicks recently) In my search about coils and wicks it was bunch of it might do/cause this but there isn't enough research so it becomes a who knows situation. It will take time for long term effects to be noticed, if they are even there.

I smoked for 20 years and was on the path to lung cancer. Now with that in mind, could the minimal risks of vaping still push me towards cancer since I was already on that road? Or maybe I get it 10 years later. I am not saying e-cigs or nicotine cause cancer. I am saying that with some damage (regardless of healing) already done would the negligible amounts of toxins (so minimal that they wouldn't be an issue had I never smoked cigareetes) still push me towards cancer.

Before answering or offering your opinion, be sure to really think about what I have proposed. Also I am in no way stating that e-cigs have or don't have toxins. Inhaling anything comes with risks. We need to be prepared because the FDA and other anti e-cig people are armed with false facts and studies and they think they know what we think (I am sure you already know this). We need to be prepared with all the info we can find, good and bad. Ignoring possible risks will make us look ignorant and cause us to lose ground. But in the search for truth we may sometimes find info we do not like. We can't bury it or act like it doesn't exists because it will be used against us tenfold just as it has been thus far.

 

[Anubuk]

But do you know the collective knowledge of every human being? If not, then you wouldn't know that "no one knows". Maybe no one may knows, or maybe someone knows and has not yet shared that fact.

Okay this is just unnecessary nit-picking. When you say no one knows, it means you have been unable to find the information and it would seem that no one knows. If someone "knows" but has not shared the info it would be the same as no one knows. Like I said unnecessary nit-picking.

With so many people making so many unsubstantiated claims about vaping, we have plenty to debate already.

So we debate what we currently know and as new info (or more unsubstantiated claims) comes around we remain ignorant to it and therefore unprepared. That seems to be what you are trying to say. Please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[TuTu25]

Both my Internist and Cardiologist are supportive of vaping as a means to stop smoking. My Internist recommends it to his patients who still smoke. In case your cardiologist is "old school", I would suggest you go to the CASAA web site, join (it's free to join) and download the latest study on vaping from Drexel University to share with him.

We all need to educate ourselves on the many positive studies on vaping and share it with our doctors who are inundated with the lies that come from the Big Pharmaceutical companies and their funded mouth pieces, the ACS, AHA and ALA.

What a fantastic idea, Thanks. I'm definitely going to do that.

 

[TuTu25]

The only difficulty a cardiologist might have with vaping is if you are still using nicotine, which as others have said is a vasoconstrictor. Folks with cardiac problems generally do best if we can keep the pressure lower to ease the stress on those vessels that are narrowed or have been operated on. The best thing would be if you could gradually titrate your nic down. Some folks seems to be very sensitive if the nicotine is lowered, others don't notice much at all. It is one of the mysterious nuances of nicotine "addiction" and also can be a difference noticed between vaping and smoking (some smokers seem to lose much of their nicotine dependency when they start vaping, others still report having it). Very weird. The reason I bring it up is that you should not assume you would have a difficult time lowering your nic. Nevertheless, a gradual change is usually the easiest. Congrats, regardless. By vaping, you are allowing your hemoglobin to carry more helpful oxygen, rather than the deadly carbon monoxide they tend to carry when you smoke. That alone is huge for your cardiovascular system. Best wishes!

Thanks PeppermintPatty! I plan on lowering my nic level from my current 18mg vape.

 

[TuTu25]

Here is a study from NIH primarily directed at NRT products that seems to disagree with you, Ex.


Does nicotine replacement therapy cause cancer? Evidence from the Lung Health Study


"In one animal study, rats breathed in a chamber with nicotine at a concentration twice that found in the plasma concentration of heavy smokers (Waldum et al., 1996). Nicotine was given for 20 hr a day, 5 days a week over a 2-year period. The authors found no increase in mortality or frequency of tumors in these rats compared with controls. Specifically, there were neither microscopic nor macroscopic lung tumors nor any increase in pulmonary neuroendocrine cells. Thus, even long-term exposure to inhaled nicotine at relatively high doses does not appear to have a carcinogenic effect."

Interesting stuff.

 

[TuTu25]

TuTu, here is a post I made previously regarding my heart disease and vaping.

I have had 7 stents placed, 3 heart attacks and open heart surgery. I still smoked for about a year and half after surgery..dumb, stupid, etc..I know. But I found vaping in February 2012. Since then my cardiologist and family practitioner have found nothing wrong in any test I've had. Both know I vape and are extremely happy I finally quit smoking after 30 years. My blood pressure still tends to be a little on the high side when I go in (140/90), but everything else is perfect. They attribute that to "white coat syndrome" because at home I'm typically around 115/70. Chest X-ray's perfect, blood work perfect, stress test perfect. I always had some type of episode at lest once year after I turned 40, since the first of 2012 not once had an issue at all.

I have vaped 24mg since I started vaping and continue that today. I have purchased some 18 but really don't have desire to drop my nic level because I still crave the throat hit. I recently purchased some menthol juice to see if I can still achieve the throat hit. Only time will tell but right now I'm happy and healthy. Good luck in your journey

Thanks for sharing your experience Tmartin63. I honestly haven't checked my blood pressure since I quit, but I probably should since I am taking BP Meds. Glad to hear you're doing so well. Wishing you the best too!