Vaping and the immune system?

[Nimaz]

I'm not qualified to critique the matter but I can tell you that back in 2010 when I first began experiencing my symptoms I went into hyperdrive researching the various autoimmune diseases. From medical journals down to personal discussion with other people, and everything in between, I read it all. They all have one thing in common, no one understands what triggers them or why one disease will affect one subset or population more than another. One disease will affect African americans more than whites and another will affect whites more than Asians. Yet another will only affect Asians. One disease will affect children more than adults and another will do the opposite. Science has been able to hone in on which genes will show changes but not why. And one disease will "act" completely different from one person to the next.

In RA the standard blood test looks for a protein in the blood that attacks healthy tissue and if that test comes back negative then no RA or so patients were told for many years. Yet later, seronegative diagnosis's of RA started showing up, classic symptoms but no protein detected in the blood. So for some of these disease's blood tests themselves have become unreliable for help in diagnosis. That is what happened to me. No protein in my blood yet swollen painful joints were present and obvious. My right index finger has been swollen for 5 1/2 years. My rheumatologist stated it's most likely RA but hard to tell for sure because lots of these diseases have over lapping symptoms. Xrays will show damage from RA but that takes time, years in some cases so even radiology can't always help. My eyes were the next targets but once again another overlapping symptom, no diagnosis due to uncertainty.

So through my personal journey and from everything I've read over the years I've learned that pretty much nothing is understood about these disease. No firm protocols for diagnosis in several of them, no concrete information for disease progression and certainly no clues as to their causes. Knowing what proteins and genes and antibodies end up getting affected from the disease is not the same as knowing why they're affected. So for me, reading this article, my BS detector went into overdrive. I get angry when I read something like this because nothing is understood in the autoimmune world yet these people want to claim they know something after a few months of study on vapor products? Very suspect to me and down right insulting and arrogant too.

I read your post with great interest, and I admire your determination in sicking knowledge to understand further your disease. Reading research and medical papers on autoimmunity is very challenging and certainly overwhelming even for qualified individuals because the topic is really complex. Also, the list of autoimmune diseases is relatively long so is the number of publications in this field .

Lupus erythematosus and rheumatoid arthritis (RA) are examples of autoimmune syndromes classified as systemic autoimmune diseases. They can affect multiple organs, anatomically distinct tissues in contrast with tissue specific autoimmune diseases, which affect specific organs like in type 1 diabetes (pancreas) or autoimmune thyroiditis (Hashimoto's disease). Why the incidence and severity of some systemic autoimmune diseases are higher in specific ethnic groups, such as African Americans in Lupus or why type 1 diabetes develops in youth rather than adults is not well understood. Why is there a gender bias in Lupus patients for example (~70% women), is not clearly understood either... Yet, a massive amount of scientific publications, covering several decades of research are available and the progress are phenomenal allowing the engineering of new medicines that are significantly improving the life quality of patients. The picture is far from been perfect... Many autoimmune diseases don't have efficacious treatment so patients relies on very nasty medicines. The costs are very high, the side effects can be very severe, some patients don't respond to treatment... still a lot of challenges ahead at several levels, scientists and doctors are on it, but business(wo)men are mainly sicking high end profits over people's health.

When lymphoid cells (B and T cells), develop from their respective precursors, and during an immune reaction to foreign entities, they go through several check points where cells that react against self-antigens are somehow eliminated or inactivated so the immune system does not mount a destructive immune reaction against healthy self-tissues. These processes are called Immune Tolerance mechanisms by which the immune system is educated to distinguish self from non-self structures preventing autoimmunity, and allowing efficient and specific immune reaction to pathogens or other foreign molecular structures. When Immune Tolerance is impaired (the causes are complex and multiple), the immune system start to react destructively to self-tissue(s) leading thereby to autoimmunity and autoimmune diseases.

The diagnosis of some systemic autoimmune diseases can be very challenging. They are often based on a list specific symptoms that need to be all assessed positive. It is however problematic when the symptoms overlap with other diseases (autoimmune or not), also because of periods remission and relapse. This is particularly true in RA or Lupus where the diagnosis combine physical exam, blood tests (inflammation markers, auto-antibodies (antibodies that react against self-antigens)) and imaging tests. Early RA diagnosis or diagnosis during remission is very challenging because all symptoms may not be detectable simultaneously.... and that really suck because it delays early treatment to slowdown disease progression. Not to add that doctors are always overbooked and it seems that many are rushing their job through out the day.

You have every good reason to be upset... You're not alone... Have hope though! A lot has been discovered and is understood regarding autoimmune diseases including disregulated genes and proteins, disease etiology, and mechanisms of action. The more we learn, the more we also understand that the extant of our ignorance is far greater. Often frustrating, this also trigger further investigations, questioning all with a regained sense of humbleness. Like Socrates said "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing." Indeed, many autoimmune diseases don't have efficatious treatment, lupus been a striking example. Identifying disregulated relevant proteins or genes can offer potential targets to develop new medicines. Such medicines are immuno-suppressive like Humira or Rituxan for the treatment of several autoimmune diseases including RA. If we believe the paper of this thread, vaping (cinnamon flavor?) could also be somehow immuno-suppressive... We already know that nicotine is anti-inflammatory also used to treat some diseases like Crohn's disease. We don't have yet the published data but I looked at the publication record of the original abstract author and (s)he seems like a serious investigator, so I'm expecting a peer-reviewed paper to come out of this. The details can be quite informative.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I read your post with great interest, and I admire your determination in sicking knowledge to understand further your disease. Reading research and medical papers on autoimmunity is very challenging and certainly overwhelming even for qualified individuals because the topic is really complex. Also, the list of autoimmune diseases is relatively long so is the number of publications in this field .

Lupus erythematosus and rheumatoid arthritis (RA) are examples of autoimmune syndromes classified as systemic autoimmune diseases. They can affect multiple organs, anatomically distinct tissues in contrast with tissue specific autoimmune diseases, which affect specific organs like in type 1 diabetes (pancreas) or autoimmune thyroiditis (Hashimoto's disease). Why the incidence and severity of some systemic autoimmune diseases are higher in specific ethnic groups, such as African Americans in Lupus or why type 1 diabetes develops in youth rather than adults is not well understood. Why is there a gender bias in Lupus patients for example (~70% women), is not clearly understood either... Yet, a massive amount of scientific publications, covering several decades of research are available and the progress are phenomenal allowing the engineering of new medicines that are significantly improving the life quality of patients. The picture is far from been perfect... Many autoimmune diseases don't have efficacious treatment so patients relies on very nasty medicines. The costs are very high, the side effects can be very severe, some patients don't respond to treatment... still a lot of challenges ahead at several levels, scientists and doctors are on it, but business(wo)men are mainly sicking high end profits over people's health.

When lymphoid cells (B and T cells), develop from their respective precursors, and during an immune reaction to foreign entities, they go through several check points where cells that react against self-antigens are somehow eliminated or inactivated so the immune system does not mount a destructive immune reaction against healthy self-tissues. These processes are called Immune Tolerance mechanisms by which the immune system is educated to distinguish self from non-self structures preventing autoimmunity, and allowing efficient and specific immune reaction to pathogens or other foreign molecular structures. When Immune Tolerance is impaired (the causes are complex and multiple), the immune system start to react destructively to self-tissue(s) leading thereby to autoimmunity and autoimmune diseases.

The diagnosis of some systemic autoimmune diseases can be very challenging. They are often based on a list specific symptoms that need to be all assessed positive. It is however problematic when the symptoms overlap with other diseases (autoimmune or not), also because of periods remission and relapse. This is particularly true in RA or Lupus where the diagnosis combine physical exam, blood tests (inflammation markers, auto-antibodies (antibodies that react against self-antigens)) and imaging tests. Early RA diagnosis or diagnosis during remission is very challenging because all symptoms may not be detectable simultaneously.... and that really suck because it delays early treatment to slowdown disease progression. Not to add that doctors are always overbooked and it seems that many are rushing their job through out the day.

You have every good reason to be upset... You're not alone... Have hope though! A lot has been discovered and is understood regarding autoimmune diseases including disregulated genes and proteins, disease etiology, and mechanisms of action. The more we learn, the more we also understand that the extant of our ignorance is far greater. Often frustrating, this also trigger further investigations, questioning all with a regained sense of humbleness. Like Socrates said "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing." Indeed, many autoimmune diseases don't have efficatious treatment, lupus been a striking example. Identifying disregulated relevant proteins or genes can offer potential targets to develop new medicines. Such medicines are immuno-suppressive like Humira or Rituxan for the treatment of several autoimmune diseases including RA. If we believe the paper of this thread, vaping (cinnamon flavor?) could also be somehow immuno-suppressive... We already know that nicotine is anti-inflammatory also used to treat some diseases like Crohn's disease. We don't have yet the published data but I looked at the publication record of the original abstract author and (s)he seems like a serious investigator, so I'm expecting a peer-reviewed paper to come out of this. The details can be quite informative.

Nicotine is anti-inflammatory. Thank you. Really an outstanding synopsis @Nimaz.

Good luck.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Nicotine is anti-inflammatory. Thank you. Really an outstanding synopsis @Nimaz.

Good luck.

I wonder if that lessens the propensity of nicotine as the cause of gene expression changes seemingly found in the study. If so, that leaves base liquids and flavorings, or perhaps concert between all of the constituents of eliquid as potential causes.

I may move to non-flavored for a while to ascertain if that makes any difference in my RA symptoms.

As well, I have hoped for various reasons that a base or bases other than PG and VG might be found.

 

[MacTechVpr]

I wonder if that lessens the propensity of nicotine as the cause of gene expression changes seemingly found in the study. If so, that leaves base liquids and flavorings, or perhaps concert between all of the constituents of eliquid as potential causes.

I may move to non-flavored for a while to ascertain if that makes any difference in my RA symptoms.

As well, I have hoped for various reasons that a base or bases other than PG and VG might be found.

Well not to play devil's advocate here but an anti-inflammatory response would be in my estimation a subtle suppression of the immune response…or call it muting if you will. As I see it, such are part of the the human biology's normal functioning. We may manipulate this in a variety of natural ways as with diet and nutrition. Nic also suppresses the activity of scilia in the brachial airway responsible for expelling contaminants. But these are short lived effects. I get really skeptical CB when I see broad generalized claims for or against. Particularly when so open-ended as to not address extent. When parameters such as time or exposure aren't clearly stipulated or exaggerated as in many studies critical of tobacco. Then I begin to suspect the adverse effect we're dealing with has little to do with the body but the psyche of the originators. Still folks particularly at risk need to be aware of these subtle effects and arrive at a proper attribution for them. So my aggravation comes when experts muddy the picture. So heck yeah for many of us we need to stay on top of this stuff as mature (and long-term) vapers.

Good luck.

p.s. My airway closes when exposed to cayenne pepper. Discovered this before I started vaping. A reaction to some nicotine gums which use it as a primary ingredient. Yet look at the health benefits.

 

[skoony]

I wonder if that lessens the propensity of nicotine as the cause of gene expression changes seemingly found in the study. If so, that leaves base liquids and flavorings, or perhaps concert between all of the constituents of eliquid as potential causes.

I may move to non-flavored for a while to ascertain if that makes any difference in my RA symptoms.

As well, I have hoped for various reasons that a base or bases other than PG and VG might be found.

I don't see it this way at at all. They did a study. They showed the results. They speculated
that these results 'could' or 'may' do this that or the other thing without explaining the
discrepancy between smokers (whom we know are getting sick) and vapers.
(whom as of yet apparently are not)
It is my belief is as vapers have a snoot full of PG and or VG that the other groups
do not have it is somehow skewing the results. Most if not all of any studies I have
come across where cigarette smoke when compared to vapor side by side smoke
by far caused more changes and damage very quickly while it took time for e-juice
to cause relatively low damage when compared to smoke. This study is implying
the opposite in a very sinister sort of way. Muted and or suppressed for that mater
do not mean harm. Most other studies refer to mutations,breakdown or destruction(death).
I am not certain what this particular study means but, I am not convinced at all it
means what they imply it means. As written in the article it appears to have done a
180 from what we know or, thought we knew concerning the toxicity of smoke when
compared to vapor.
Regards
mike

 

[MacTechVpr]

My take too. A new tangent for denigration. Good luck.

 

[pennysmalls]

I read your post with great interest, and I admire your determination in sicking knowledge to understand further your disease. Reading research and medical papers on autoimmunity is very challenging and certainly overwhelming even for qualified individuals because the topic is really complex. Also, the list of autoimmune diseases is relatively long so is the number of publications in this field .

Lupus erythematosus and rheumatoid arthritis (RA) are examples of autoimmune syndromes classified as systemic autoimmune diseases. They can affect multiple organs, anatomically distinct tissues in contrast with tissue specific autoimmune diseases, which affect specific organs like in type 1 diabetes (pancreas) or autoimmune thyroiditis (Hashimoto's disease). Why the incidence and severity of some systemic autoimmune diseases are higher in specific ethnic groups, such as African Americans in Lupus or why type 1 diabetes develops in youth rather than adults is not well understood. Why is there a gender bias in Lupus patients for example (~70% women), is not clearly understood either... Yet, a massive amount of scientific publications, covering several decades of research are available and the progress are phenomenal allowing the engineering of new medicines that are significantly improving the life quality of patients. The picture is far from been perfect... Many autoimmune diseases don't have efficacious treatment so patients relies on very nasty medicines. The costs are very high, the side effects can be very severe, some patients don't respond to treatment... still a lot of challenges ahead at several levels, scientists and doctors are on it, but business(wo)men are mainly sicking high end profits over people's health.

When lymphoid cells (B and T cells), develop from their respective precursors, and during an immune reaction to foreign entities, they go through several check points where cells that react against self-antigens are somehow eliminated or inactivated so the immune system does not mount a destructive immune reaction against healthy self-tissues. These processes are called Immune Tolerance mechanisms by which the immune system is educated to distinguish self from non-self structures preventing autoimmunity, and allowing efficient and specific immune reaction to pathogens or other foreign molecular structures. When Immune Tolerance is impaired (the causes are complex and multiple), the immune system start to react destructively to self-tissue(s) leading thereby to autoimmunity and autoimmune diseases.

The diagnosis of some systemic autoimmune diseases can be very challenging. They are often based on a list specific symptoms that need to be all assessed positive. It is however problematic when the symptoms overlap with other diseases (autoimmune or not), also because of periods remission and relapse. This is particularly true in RA or Lupus where the diagnosis combine physical exam, blood tests (inflammation markers, auto-antibodies (antibodies that react against self-antigens)) and imaging tests. Early RA diagnosis or diagnosis during remission is very challenging because all symptoms may not be detectable simultaneously.... and that really suck because it delays early treatment to slowdown disease progression. Not to add that doctors are always overbooked and it seems that many are rushing their job through out the day.

You have every good reason to be upset... You're not alone... Have hope though! A lot has been discovered and is understood regarding autoimmune diseases including disregulated genes and proteins, disease etiology, and mechanisms of action. The more we learn, the more we also understand that the extant of our ignorance is far greater. Often frustrating, this also trigger further investigations, questioning all with a regained sense of humbleness. Like Socrates said "True knowledge exists in knowing that you know nothing." Indeed, many autoimmune diseases don't have efficatious treatment, lupus been a striking example. Identifying disregulated relevant proteins or genes can offer potential targets to develop new medicines. Such medicines are immuno-suppressive like Humira or Rituxan for the treatment of several autoimmune diseases including RA. If we believe the paper of this thread, vaping (cinnamon flavor?) could also be somehow immuno-suppressive... We already know that nicotine is anti-inflammatory also used to treat some diseases like Crohn's disease. We don't have yet the published data but I looked at the publication record of the original abstract author and (s)he seems like a serious investigator, so I'm expecting a peer-reviewed paper to come out of this. The details can be quite informative.

Thank you for that Nimaz. I'm really glad you chimed in and shared your knowledge. The press release for this potential study was horrible and very misleading in my opinion. It's a topic most people won't be familiar with so they will hear those complicated terms and the negative spin and assume that vaping is causing auto immune problems. It's hard to tell from the article just what exactly the actual researcher found and what the implications are but if cinnamon flavor is possibly immuno-suppressive that could be very good news for the autoimmune world but not so good for general health issues such as colds and such. This could turn out to be really quite interesting. Thank you again Nimaz, I hope you continue to share here.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I don't doubt that that when compared to smoking, eliquids may show harm reduction in many ways.

I don't have much evidence at this time to understand in what ways eliquids may have potential long term harm effects similar to smoking or in what new ways harm could be found that is dissimilar and not characteristic of smoking.

As far as 'speculation,' have all of the posters comments in this thread been free of speculation? : )

 

[pennysmalls]

Another aspect to all of this that's interesting is that smoking is claimed to be one of the risk factors for developing autoimmune diseases (go figure) yet I've read that non smokers suffer more severe disease progression in RA, especially men. But I think men had it worse than women all the way around with RA. That's something I came across from a few different sources back when I was researching. Also, I noticed in reading patients stories that quitting smoking sometimes sent them (RA patients) into severe relapses or quitting smoking was a precursor to their disease showing up. It was clear to me that smoking does play a role but not necessarily in a negative way. Of course this can't be true for all cases but there were a lot of them that I ran across. I was a bit nervous about that aspect when I switched from smoking to vaping but I had no problems and I'm assuming the nicotine being present in both acted as a bridge from one to the other preventing my body from reacting in a negative way and this is assuming that I was one of those who's bodies would have reacted which I had no way of knowing.

 

[DC2]

I think I'm at the point where I don't know what to think anymore. Should I rest assured that this is all just part of the Big Lie?

Pretty much everything is all part of some Big Lie.
It's the world we live in today.

Actually, it's probably the world everyone has always lived in.

It took my around 45 years on this planet to start figuring this out.
And I'm a very smart guy, so I have no idea why it took so long.

Oh, yeah, I remember now.
I blame the mainstream media more than anything else.


EDIT: OMG this thread is six pages long?
EDIT: I probably shouldn't post here again until I get caught up.

 

[skoony]

Having reread the article in question where is all this talk of autoimmunity
coming from. Isn't that From mutations in the gene pool? Compromised
immune response is the term they used.
Regards
Mike

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Another aspect to all of this that's interesting is that smoking is claimed to be one of the risk factors for developing autoimmune diseases (go figure) yet I've read that non smokers suffer more severe disease progression in RA, especially men. But I think men had it worse than women all the way around with RA. That's something I came across from a few different sources back when I was researching. Also, I noticed in reading patients stories that quitting smoking sometimes sent them (RA patients) into severe relapses or quitting smoking was a precursor to their disease showing up. It was clear to me that smoking does play a role but not necessarily in a negative way. Of course this can't be true for all cases but there were a lot of them that I ran across. I was a bit nervous about that aspect when I switched from smoking to vaping but I had no problems and I'm assuming the nicotine being present in both acted as a bridge from one to the other preventing my body from reacting in a negative way and this is assuming that I was one of those who's bodies would have reacted which I had no way of knowing.

Interesting comments, pennysmalls.

Information I have seen indicated the incidence of RA per gender is that the number of women with RA is 2 1/2 times the number of men. That calculates to about 72% women and 28% men.

The common age range for RA onset is from 30 to 50.

"At this time," I'm searching elsewhere than singly nicotine.

 

[pennysmalls]

Interesting comments, pennysmalls.

Information I have seen indicated the incidence of RA per gender is that the number of women with RA is 2 1/2 times the number of men. That calculates to about 72% women and 28% men.

The common age range for RA onset if from 30 to 50.

"At this time," I'm searching elsewhere than singly nicotine.

I meant for disease progression. I've read that men suffer more in RA, tend to have more pain and/or complications than women. I've also read that women are more prone to RA developing and it's not as common in men. But in men RA is not good news at all in terms of severity.

 

[DC2]

It makes me wonder, are "reporters" actually scoping out health conferences looking for things to report? Or, are researchers and institutions seeking out avenues for spreading their "findings?"

To me, this is the $64,000 question, but I think I already know the answer.

 

[pennysmalls]

Having reread the article in question where is all this talk of autoimmunity
coming from. Isn't that From mutations in the gene pool? Compromised
immune response is the term they used.
Regards
Mike

From the article...

" Whether the imbalance caused by e-cigs leads to boosted infection risks or other immune diseases, “we don’t know,” Jaspers added."

 

[MacTechVpr]

To me, this is the $64,000 question.

Are we unawares here that "content" is a commodity?

Good luck.

 

[skoony]

“The gene expression changes we’re seeing are consistent with a modified immune response,” lead researcher Ilona Jaspers of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill told Ars. “Any time you change [the immune system], it's probably out of balance," she said, explaining that a hyper-immune response or a weak response is problematic. Whether the imbalance caused by e-cigs leads to boosted infection risks or other immune diseases, “we don’t know,” Jaspers added.
@pennysmalls Thanks. What a mouth full. In other words they haven't a clue.
I haven't noticed any increase in infectious diseases related from the people in
this forum and the article had nothing to do with hyperimmune responses
as the findings indicated they were suppressed.
Regards
Mike

 

[pennysmalls]

“The gene expression changes we’re seeing are consistent with a modified immune response,” lead researcher Ilona Jaspers of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill told Ars. “Any time you change [the immune system], it's probably out of balance," she said, explaining that a hyper-immune response or a weak response is problematic. Whether the imbalance caused by e-cigs leads to boosted infection risks or other immune diseases, “we don’t know,” Jaspers added.
@pennysmalls Thanks. What a mouth full. In other words they haven't a clue.
I haven't noticed any increase in infectious diseases related from the people in
this forum and the article had nothing to do with hyperimmune responses
as the findings indicated they were suppressed.
Regards
Mike

This study may yet prove to be very interesting because on one hand a "muted" immune response would be good for those with "immune diseases", may possibly lead to less suffering. On the other hand if it's true the immune response is really muted then we should be seeing lots more colds and flus in vapers but we're not, so it's a leap to suppose there will be a rise in infectious conditions. So it's obviously just way to early to suppose literally anything from this coming study.

 

[zoiDman]

I'm sure it has been Posted before.

But could someone Post a Link to the Actual Study?

 

[bigdancehawk]

Personal anecdote followed by sheer speculation: I used to get frequent head colds that would migrate to my lungs and cause me to cough and cough for many days. Since I started vaping over 4 years ago that hasn't happened once. Many others on this forum have reported similar experiences.

I understand that cold symptoms (fever, coughing, sneezing, etc.) are the body's attempt to kill or expel the infectious agents. Now, either vaping is killing the viruses that caused me to get colds, or vaping is suppressing my immune system and thus preventing my body from attacking the viruses. If it's the latter, then I suppose my body must be full of multiple viruses that don't seem to be harming me at present but at some point may produce devastating consequences.