Vaping and the immune system?

[Tigerlily3]

I was wondering about vaping and the immune system as I have PsA and Lupus..I have vaped off and on for about three years, and now am vaping more, asI am in the process of quitting analogs.I have not had any flares since vaping more, or rashes or severe joint pain..I am by NO means a vape expert though.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I was wondering about vaping and the immune system as I have PsA and Lupus..I have vaped off and on for about three years, and now am vaping more, asI am in the process of quitting analogs.I have not had any flares since vaping more, or rashes or severe joint pain..I am by NO means a vape expert though.

How long ago was the onset of your PsA and Lupus?

 

[pennysmalls]

I was wondering about vaping and the immune system as I have PsA and Lupus..I have vaped off and on for about three years, and now am vaping more, asI am in the process of quitting analogs.I have not had any flares since vaping more, or rashes or severe joint pain..I am by NO means a vape expert though.

Wow Tigerlilly, I hope your doing ok considering. Thanks for sharing your experience with nicotine. I hope researchers take note of stories like yours and take a much closer look at nicotine and it's possible benefits in autoimmune conditions.

 

[skoony]

I don't know enough about genetics and the immune system to evaluate the researchers' suggestion of compromised immune responses.

There's no need too. There is nothing in the articles indicating a need or reason to do
so.
Regards
mike

 

[Nimaz]

I wonder if that lessens the propensity of nicotine as the cause of gene expression changes seemingly found in the study. If so, that leaves base liquids and flavorings, or perhaps concert between all of the constituents of eliquid as potential causes.

I may move to non-flavored for a while to ascertain if that makes any difference in my RA symptoms.

As well, I have hoped for various reasons that a base or bases other than PG and VG might be found.

Gene expression change all the time in cells, often as a result of extra-cellular factors present in the ever changing micro-environment. These factors promote cellular responses, through specific cellular signaling pathways, the expression of genes are modulated, and the proteins they encode are coordinating these responses (protein secretion, proliferation, mobility, programmed cell death etc...). It is therefore expected that exposure to any extra-cellular factors variations (chemicals, temperature, pH...) would promote some gene expression changes, some going up other down, but rarely all in the same direction, the same time, levels, nor with the same changes duration. Today's technology allows to look at the expression of thousands of genes simultaneously. These assays are organized in gene family expression clusters, such as "immune genes", "inflammatory genes" (to use terminology short cuts) or maybe some days "vaping genes" (just kidding). Microarrays of gene expression patterns are still expensive, and challenging to analyze. Whoever tries to assess gene expression changes using this kind of approach has to anticipate, or have some level of reasonable suspicion that changes will be observed. It is very unlikely that this type of assays were used in the mentioned study. Smaller gene expression arrays were assessed, with less expensive semi-quantitative assays because only few hundreds of genes are reported.

The key questions are which genes, how much, for how long and from exposure to what compounds (cinnamon flavor, nicotine, PG, VG?)... I would expect that, depending on where we live, air pollution exposure should have more drastic effects on "Immune gene" expression than vaping.... and that is a relevant study.

Based on the author's publications, (s)he has studied over time similar topics after exposure to popular compounds (arsenic, smoking, aspirin, diesel, ozone, influenza, highway pollution...). Again, (s)he sounds like a serious investigator who has been building a career around this pattern. I'm looking forward to see a peer-reviewed publication on the abstract claim.

Now, I'm wondering if we may just be simply more afraid of the unknown than the things known to be harmful. Many smoked for decades or still smoke even with the compiling knowledge of smoking dangers to our health. More than 80% keep smoking after severe lungs diseases diagnosis like lungs cancer...

In contrast with smoking, we have a reasonable and intelligible control over vaping. Some of us choose DIY ejuices, sometime with DX TFA or V2 Capella flavors to avoid specific chemicals or just flavorless. Rayon over Cotton wicks, or Nicotine, VG or PG from chosen sources rather than others. Some choose Kanthal over Nickel, Titanium over Nickel coils in TC and more options may open up. Overall, most of these choices are based on specific and interesting rationals. Flavors have been of specific interest to date because they are often the "unknown" factor in our vape. So if we learn for instance that cinnamon has immuno-suppressive activities, we may choose or not to vape it depending on our condition. It seems that the further I am navigating away from smoking, the more I focus on the quality of my vape, so the more I learn from scientific studies, whether I like them or not, the better it is to propel further my vaping choices and overall technological progresses.

 

[YoursTruli]

Oh, I dunno...

I had nary a symptom of rheumatoid arthritis before I took up vaping.

There's no family history of rheumatoid arthritis for me. I'm told that the onset of RA is typically, though not necessarily at younger ages. Osteoarthritis on the other hand, is common in advanced years.

It seems to me that folks here are grasping at straws trying to find something wrong with the process of the study. Apparently there is a difference in what the study is finding and what many would like to believe. Is it that 'we just have to find something wrong here?' ...and a bit of cherry-picking in the approach.

I really don't know enough about the process of the study and procedures of research to criticize anything about it, nor do I feel a compelling need to. I do know enough to say I have developed an uncharacteristic autoimmune disease since taking up vaping.

Anybody can raise questions or criticize a matter, but who here is truly qualified to critique the matter? If you are, please list those qualifications. Does someone have lengthy experience in doctorate level research?

And let's leave out the post-modern playing of the victim card. "They're picking on us!"

Perhaps this study brings forth what is an inconvenient truth.

Large case–control studies as well as cohort studies have demonstrated that cigarette smoking is a major risk factor for developing rheumatoid arthritis and that the risk diminishes only several years after cessation of smoking. It accounts for more than a third of cases of the most common form of RA and for more than 50% of RA diagnoses among people who are genetically susceptible to the development of this disease.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Gene expression change all the time in cells, often as a result of extra-cellular factors present in the ever changing micro-environment. These factors promote cellular responses, through specific cellular signaling pathways, the expression of genes are modulated, and the proteins they encode are coordinating these responses (protein secretion, proliferation, mobility, programmed cell death etc...). It is therefore expected that exposure to any extra-cellular factors variations (chemicals, temperature, pH...) would promote some gene expression changes, some going up other down, but rarely all in the same direction, the same time, levels, nor with the same changes duration. Today's technology allows to look at the expression of thousands of genes simultaneously. These assays are organized in gene family expression clusters, such as "immune genes", "inflammatory genes" (to use terminology short cuts) or maybe some days "vaping genes" (just kidding). Microarrays of gene expression patterns are still expensive, and challenging to analyze. Whoever tries to assess gene expression changes using this kind of approach has to anticipate, or have some level of reasonable suspicion that changes will be observed. It is very unlikely that this type of assays were used in the mentioned study. Smaller gene expression arrays were assessed, with less expensive semi-quantitative assays because only few hundreds of genes are reported.

The key questions are which genes, how much, for how long and from exposure to what compounds (cinnamon flavor, nicotine, PG, VG?)... I would expect that, depending on where we live, air pollution exposure should have more drastic effects on "Immune gene" expression than vaping.... and that is a relevant study.

Based on the author's publications, (s)he has studied over time similar topics after exposure to popular compounds (arsenic, smoking, aspirin, diesel, ozone, influenza, highway pollution...). Again, (s)he sounds like a serious investigator who has been building a carrier around this pattern. I'm looking forward to see a peer-reviewed publication on the abstract claim.

Now, I'm wondering if we may just be simply more afraid of the unknown than the things known to be harmful. Many smoked for decades or still smoke even with the compiling knowledge of smoking dangers to our health. More than 80% keep smoking after severe lungs diseases diagnosis like lungs cancer...

In contrast with smoking, we have a reasonable and intelligible control over vaping. Some of us choose DIY ejuices, sometime with DX TFA or V2 Capella flavors to avoid specific chemicals or just flavorless. Rayon over Cotton wicks, or Nicotine, VG or PG from chosen sources rather than others. Some choose Kanthal over Nickel, Titanium over Nickel coils in TC and more options may open up. Overall, most of these choices are based on specific and interesting rationals. Flavors have been of specific interest to date because they are often the "unknown" factor in our vape. So if we learn for instance that cinnamon has immuno-suppressive activities, we may choose or not to vape it depending on our condition. It seems that the further I am navigating away from smoking, the more I focus on the quality of my vape, so the more I learn from scientific studies, whether I like them or not, the better it is to propel further my vaping choices and overall technological progresses.

Thank you for illuminating gene expression and the process of assessment.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

Large case–control studies as well as cohort studies have demonstrated that cigarette smoking is a major risk factor for developing rheumatoid arthritis and that the risk diminishes only several years after cessation of smoking. It accounts for more than a third of cases of the most common form of RA and for more than 50% of RA diagnoses among people who are genetically susceptible to the development of this disease.

Thanks for the comments. I'll keep your thoughts In mind.

I appreciate your RWE quote (particularly in the context of this thread).

 

[YoursTruli]

Wow Tigerlilly, I hope your doing ok considering. Thanks for sharing your experience with nicotine. I hope researchers take note of stories like yours and take a much closer look at nicotine and it's possible benefits in autoimmune conditions.

There has been a considerable amount of research done on the benefits as well as the negatives of nicotine and autoimmune disorders. Not all autoimmune disorder are mediated in the same manner so they can not be lumped together or treated as a whole.


ETA: as someone that suffers from a rare autoimmune disorder this is an area I have done extensive research into.

 

[pennysmalls]

Nimaz you wrote:

I would expect that, depending on where we live, air pollution exposure should have more drastic effects on "Immune gene" expression than vaping.... and that is a relevant study.

That makes a lot of sense to me when figuring in how smoking is a risk factor in disease. Cigarettes are literally tiny pollution factories, putting out tons of stuff those prone to these immune diseases shouldn't be exposed to. Vaping takes away the pollution factor.

 

[pennysmalls]

There has been a considerable amount of research done on the benefits as well as the negatives of nicotine and autoimmune disorders. Not all autoimmune disorder are mediated in the same manner so they can not be lumped together or treated as a whole.


ETA: as someone that suffers from a rare autoimmune disorder this is an area I have done extensive research into.

The nicotine thing was not something that I researched because I didn't know there was a relationship back at that time, it was just something that I picked up on reading various articles and personal accounts. The info that I picked up during my research journey left me feeling a bit paranoid about quitting nicotine. If I had known I would have definitely researched the nicotine/auto immune relationship voraciously.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

... Based on the author's publications, (s)he has studied over time similar topics after exposure to popular compounds (arsenic, smoking, aspirin, diesel, ozone, influenza, highway pollution...). Again, (s)he sounds like a serious investigator who has been building a carrier around this pattern. I'm looking forward to see a peer-reviewed publication on the abstract claim. ...

Thanks also for investigating the author's previous work and offering your comments.

 

[Tigerlily3]

How long ago was the onset of your PsA and Lupus?

I had symptoms of Lupus as far back as around 1993, but didn't get an actual diagnosis until about 2001.Somewhere around 2009 I was also diagnosed with the psoriatic arthiritis..Usually with one autoimmune illness, another one isn't lurking to far behind.They must like company !

 

[Cool_Breeze]

I had symptoms of Lupus as far back as around 1993, but didn't get an actual diagnosis until about 2001.Somewhere around 2009 I was also diagnosed with the psoriatic arthiritis..Usually with one autoimmune illness, another one isn't lurking to far behind.They must like company !

Hi Tigerlilly3. Thank you for the background on your disease development. Obviously most of it developed in a period prior to the beginning of domestic e-cig use in the U.S., though I'm unsure where you may be located. If you were suffering flares, rashes and joint pain up until you began e-cigarette use (post #141), it is certain you have been blessed since then. I'll hold a good thought that will continue for you.

 

[Nimaz]

Funny how any doctor worth his/her salt will admit that not much is known about disorders of the immune system yet this article makes it sound like that isn't even being considered. There are no cures for any autoimmune disease that I've ever heard or read about. Yet these yahoo's want to claim that ecigs are "shutting down hundreds of immune system genes" and that it means....what exactly? Like any info they gather about this topic can actually tell them anything at all on a subject that isn't understood at all.

Now, I wonder if Socrates was pulling his famous quote because he was tired of people asking him questions... lol. It's an easy gate away to say that not much is known about autoimmune diseases... Actually a lot is known, and I agree with the fact that a lot is unknown, especially regarding specific autoimmune diseases such as lupus. A cure would not profit in a financial stand point... Treatments are profitable because they require recurrent medicine purchase, a cure would rather clear the disease once and for good. I don't think we have any cure for any disease. If I could pull one out, the financial interests would kill it at birth. No pharmaceutical are looking for cures! Except vaping to get reed of smoking...if smoking is a disease, and i still vape lol. Financial interests sound prety mad about it... 100s of genes means nothing until we know which ones, how much, or where in the body... Is there any specific functional implications? No specifics have been published yet, but as soon as data come out if they ever do, I'll be the first to post comments on the details....

 

[Nimaz]

I had symptoms of Lupus as far back as around 1993, but didn't get an actual diagnosis until about 2001.Somewhere around 2009 I was also diagnosed with the psoriatic arthiritis..Usually with one autoimmune illness, another one isn't lurking to far behind.They must like company !

Lupus really suck! Glad that you've been able to hold it for the past 20+ years... My mind has been stuck on it for a long time now... and I'm still clueless for the most... Got a few encouraging stuff but nothing very efficacious... When our beautiful immune system is damned and loose control of itself... then company may come along. I wish you the best!

 

[Lessifer]

Now, I wonder if Socrates was pulling his famous quote because he was tired of people asking him questions... lol. It's an easy gate away to say that not much is known about autoimmune diseases... Actually a lot is known, and I agree with the fact that a lot is unknown, especially regarding specific autoimmune diseases such as lupus. A cure would not profit in a financial stand point... Treatments are profitable because they require recurrent medicine purchase, a cure would rather clear the disease once and for good. I don't think we have any cure for any disease. If I could pull one out, the financial interests would kill it at birth. No pharmaceutical are looking for cures! Except vaping to get reed of smoking...if smoking is a disease, and i still vape lol. Financial interests sound prety mad about it... 100s of genes means nothing until we know which ones, how much, or where in the body... Is there any specific functional implications? No specifics have been published yet, but as soon as data come out if they ever do, I'll be the first to post comments on the details....

Occasionally they do find actual cures, but those come with other considerations
We Now Have the Cure for Hepatitis C, but Can We Afford It?

 

[Nimaz]

Occasionally they do find actual cures, but those come with other considerations
We Now Have the Cure for Hepatitis C, but Can We Afford It?

Thank you! I was hoping that someone would show me otherwise... Including myself, cures would be a blessing for so many... The affordable part seems almost like a detail as long as it's medically feasible. But it's not! That gives me hope though.

Edit: just gave my 8 yo his asthma treatment to calm his crisis... A cure would be awesome.

 

[Lessifer]

Thank you! I was hoping that someone would show me otherwise... Including myself, cures would be a blessing for so many... The affordable part seems almost like a detail as long as it's medically feasible. But it's not! That gives me hope though.

I'm about as cynical as they come, but yeah, sometimes people do good. Of course now there's the fact that people won't be able to afford it, or insurance companies won't want to pay for it. They would rather pay treatment costs that add up to $100,000 over 10 years than $84,000 in a few months.

Of course vaping isn't a cure, it's a preventative measure, and no one makes big money from that.

 

[inspects]

I'm about as cynical as they come, but yeah, sometimes people do good. Of course now there's the fact that people won't be able to afford it, or insurance companies won't want to pay for it. They would rather pay treatment costs that add up to $100,000 over 10 years than $84,000 in a few months.

Of course vaping isn't a cure, it's a preventative measure, and no one makes big money from that.

Indeed, Les....^^^^^...

Good post.