Vaping vs Analogs in regards to MAOI's, addiction, and mental health

[Stubby]

alien Traveler" data-source="post: 16601318" class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeBlock--expandable bbCodeBlock--quote js-expandWatch">

tobacco. It looks like nicotine without cigarette is not as much addictive. No real research here.

It is to early for studies on vaping, but there have been studies on smokeless tobacco which show ST to create less dependency then cigarettes.

http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/2014/11/dependence-level-higher-with-cigarettes.html

There is very likely a continuum of dependency, with cigarettes creating the greatest dependency, and moving down the chain to smokeless tobacco and then vaping.

There is something else going on that needs to be mentioned. Many people use tobacco/nicotine for the benefits of increased cognitive function, relief from depressions, etc. For some people using nicotine alone without the minor alkaloids is not as satisfying as using a full spectrum of alkaloids found in whole tobacco.

We can get what is very likely a rather misguided view of how effective nicotine alone is in getting people to quit smoking if all you look at is this forum. About 80% of people who take up vaping are still dual users (though a good amount are likely in transition), though you need to get out of the echo chamber of ECF and the vaping community to get a better understanding of that. It could very well be that for people who can't seem to completely give up smoking, or begin getting depressed or other issues after several months of nicotine only, they can often find relief by supplementing vaping with snus or other low risk whole tobacco.

A greater or lesser degree of dependency is a minor issue compared to the harm that smoking causes.

 

[bluecat]

Most of the people I grew up with in Virginia farmed and raised tobacco and the majority of them never smoked.
It is such a dirty grimy hot nasty job for kids to have.
It is one of the ways to make money in those small towns where everybody raises tobacco.
I strung for fun but it is very hard work.
Webster should change the definition of addiction I think lol
C.B.

Yeah.. My family used to own a farm which one of the crops was tobacco. The leafs curing in the stripping room, I always loved to see. Picking it was a tough job.

 

[bluecat]

It is to early for studies on vaping, but there have been studies on smokeless tobacco which show ST to create less dependency then cigarettes.

http://rodutobaccotruth.blogspot.com/2014/11/dependence-level-higher-with-cigarettes.html

There is very likely a continuum of dependency, with cigarettes creating the greatest dependency, and moving down the chain to smokeless tobacco and then vaping.

There is something else going on that needs to be mentioned. Many people use tobacco/nicotine for the benefits of increased cognitive function, relief from depressions, etc. For some people using nicotine alone without the minor alkaloids are not as satisfying as using a full spectrum of alkaloids found in whole tobacco.

We can get what is very likely a rather misguided view of how effective nicotine alone is in getting people to quit smoking if all you look at is this forum. About 80% of people who take up vaping are still dual users, though you need to get out of the echo chamber of ECF and the vaping community to get a better understanding of that. It could very well be that for people who can't seem to completely give up smoking, or begin getting depressed or other issues after several months of nicotine only, can often find relief by supplementing vaping with snus or other low risk whole tobacco.

A greater of lesser degree of dependency is a minor issue compared to the harm that smoking causes.

The way I understand, the harm caused by smoking is a combination of combustion and the chemicals added to the tobacco leaf to improve the body's absorption of tobacco. Faster and more efficient. None of that is in vaping.

Take out the chemicals all 4000-6000 by some estimates and then what is harmful and it what amounts? Considering water is harmful in large amounts just saying it is harmful is a cop out.

I question whether nicotine is an addiction. I can tell you 3+ years later.. I still want a smoke. A vape does not satisfy me as a smoke did.

 

[Johntodd]

WTA made all the difference for me. I couldn't shake that urge for a smoke until I put some WTA in my juice.

I used to vape it just in the morning after waking, but now I skip every other day. Seems the tobacco is more addictive than the Ejuice+WTA. My need is diminishing on it's own without me weaning myself or being miserable.

 

[blujess]

You might want to check this reddit thread:

https://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/21ufd5/what_are_the_maoi_compounds_in_tobacco_and_why/

And I strongly suggest you look at the 'WTA' threads at ECF too - lots of back and forth by qualified individuals (including at least two professionals) on the topic.

As an aside - I know of two ECF members who both found the transition to vaping easy for a few weeks/months and then desperately needed something 'more' .. WTAs was the answer to get into their rotation on occasion to satisfy the gaps they experienced. Slowly they were able to filter WTAs back out along w/ nicotine.

In any case, good luck, -Mags

@MagnusEunson Thank you. This is more what I was looking for! I am not actually interested in using WTA liquids, because I am specifically looking to decrease my addiction overall, and wondered if my being addicted to JUST nicotine now, was easier to kick than being addicted to what I was getting from burning tobacco specifically. I have heard tons of people say "nicotine itself is no more addictive than caffeine" and I just wondered if this was true. I doubt it since as much as I'd hate to do it, I could ditch the coffee, easily (I have, many times before), but the nic I can't seem to ditch, at all. I tried not vaping much yesterday and I was a miserable b*@#% lol...but I'd wondered if that was more psychological than physical if nic alone wasn't as addictive as when combined with the rest of the stuff in cigs.

Also wondering, if this is true, how long should it take to be free and clear of the addiction to the "other stuff" because they say nicotine clears the system within 3 days but do the WTA's and other things take longer...am I still detoxing THOSE 10 days later? Or am I done with that aspect of it? And if not, am I going to feel worse in a few weeks if they haven't all cleared my system yet? I'm just trying to learn all this so I can use the info to assist me in my journey to reach the magical 0 nic juice lol. But your link was most helpful, thanks a ton!

 

[Stubby]

The way I understand, the harm caused by smoking is a combination of combustion and the chemicals added to the tobacco leaf to improve the body's absorption of tobacco. Faster and more efficient. None of that is in vaping.

Take out the chemicals all 4000-6000 by some estimates and then what is harmful and it what amounts? Considering water is harmful in large amounts just saying it is harmful is a cop out.

I question whether nicotine is an addiction. I can tell you 3+ years later.. I still want a smoke. A vape does not satisfy me as a smoke did.

The harm caused by smoking is essentially entirely because of combustion. The idea that tobacco companies are adding chemicals that would make cigarettes more harmful is a bit off the wall. The thinking must be that cigarettes are not harmful enough so lets add some stuff to increase the risk. A pretty crazy idea. Besides that, organic and additive free cigarettes are every bit as harmful as any other cigarette.

WTA made all the difference for me. I couldn't shake that urge for a smoke until I put some WTA in my juice.

I used to vape it just in the morning after waking, but now I skip every other day. Seems the tobacco is more addictive than the Ejuice+WTA. My need is diminishing on it's own without me weaning myself or being miserable.

It is not the tobacco that is the problem, as the same thing you are doing can be done with any other whole tobacco product, as in ST in all it's numerous forms. You can get the same effect by using a snus portion every morning. There is nothing magical about WTA compared to other low risk whole tobacco products. I tried WTA when it first became available, but went back to snus as it was cheaper and more available. Also much more discrete when that is what I wanted. All of them have a slower delivery method, probably about the same as vaping, but all whole tobacco products have the minor alkaloids which can be a big help for people struggling to quit the smokes.

I agree that you can ween yourself off the minor alkaloids as I have cut my snus use to less then half of what it was, with some days doing only one portion. The big transition is getting off the smokes. There has been some ideas floating around as to why, but the speed of the hit may be one aspect of it. The other is that MOAI's are actually a product of combustion. They are not in vaping products, including WTA, or smokeless tobacco. Some percentage of the population likely develops and real dependency on MOAI's, which can make the transition much more difficult.

Whatever the case may be, using your choice of whole tobacco (WTA, snus, dip, nasal snuff, dissolvables) can be a big help.

 

[Johntodd]

MAOIs are a natural ingredient in tobacco, but only in trace amounts.

The tobacco companies add extra MAOIs (along with ammonia and sugar) to make the nic hit harder, etc.

This information all came out in the 90's when the tobacco Executives were testifying before Congress.

OP, you may still be detoxing from the additives and natural MAOIs. I had to use WTA because I developed those secondary addictions that normal ejuice wouldn't satisfy. BUT, after quitting smoking, my nic use and WTA use has gone down. It would seem I've developed a reverse tolerance, which is exactly the opposite of what I was taught in grade school about drugs.

-Johntodd

 

[MagnusEunson]

@MagnusEunson Thank you. This is more what I was looking for! I am not actually interested in using WTA liquids, because I am specifically looking to decrease my addiction overall, and wondered if my being addicted to JUST nicotine now, was easier to kick than being addicted to what I was getting from burning tobacco specifically. I have heard tons of people say "nicotine itself is no more addictive than caffeine" and I just wondered if this was true.

The reason I suggested the WTAs is that - anecdotally - some people stay off cigarettes better with a transition to/through WTAs to straight nicquid vapes. Some close friends ended up relapsing into cigs and only made the conversion ~longterm~ with WTAs as a bridge point. (All in the context of your struggles with meds.)

I doubt it since as much as I'd hate to do it, I could ditch the coffee, easily (I have, many times before), but the nic I can't seem to ditch, at all. I tried not vaping much yesterday and I was a miserable b*@#% lol...but I'd wondered if that was more psychological than physical if nic alone wasn't as addictive as when combined with the rest of the stuff in cigs.

It varies by person is the bottom line - but there is sufficient evidence to suggest nicotine and caffeine at similarly 'addictive levels' are just as easy/hard to stop. The # for caffeine is something like 400mg - 600mg/day.

There are plenty of people who find the act of smoking cathartic as well and can get to 0mg nicquids for a long long time before they're actually able to put down their device.

Lots of things at play here but the bottom line is nicotine is not the only thing in analogs that gets to you.

Also wondering, if this is true, how long should it take to be free and clear of the addiction to the "other stuff" because they say nicotine clears the system within 3 days but do the WTA's and other things take longer...am I still detoxing THOSE 10 days later? Or am I done with that aspect of it?

Free and clear of the addiction? Again, it'll vary person to person .. actually getting it all out of your system is days to decades (lead) when it comes to analogs.

I'm sorry there is no simple answer and no personalized medical advice available to you here but good luck. Cheers, -Mags

 

[Steamix]

Throat hit, nic flash ... tobacco companies got bitten hard with the MSA cuz they weren't exactly truthful ( very mildly put ) about the effects of smoking and they did a lot of tweaking to their product to get consumers hooked. Cough suppressants, boosters to deliver the nic faster, what have you. Mabe they do know more about the many chems present in tobacco smoke. But if it's gonna hurt them ( again ), they surely won't tell on their own and chronically underfunded independent research ( as in without an agenda and thus without bias ) is scarce...

There's is plenty plenty members that can attest to how addictive smoking is. Including the marketing efforts ( now largely banned ) of BT. After all, some fella lighting up at a campfire in the Arizona desert has a bit more appeal than the same fella squeezing a nic patch into an ashtray in suburbia... Vaping delivers - not as fast as smoking but it delivers nevertheless. And your hands got sumthin to fiddle with...

While your system is busy chucking out accumulated gunk, you can look forward to :
- sense of smell returning ( good when in a flower shop, sometimes less amusing when takin a public ride and realizing that some contemporaries are taking the drive to conserve water just a bit too far)
- sense of taste returning ( junk food wil taste like junk and biting into a fresh juicy peach is an experience in itself )
- vivid dreaming ( I like that part, makes sleeping much more interesting )
- overall better stamina, improved health etc...
- vapers tongue ( when just about anything tastes yuck or not at all ... is temporary )
When and how fast ... hard to tell. Though we're all driving the model homo sapiens sapiens, there's about 7 billion custom jobs of it on the market

Drinking plenty water helps to flush the system and keepin the mucous membranes moist - enjoy your very own journey , vape on

 

[Stubby]

MAOIs are a natural ingredient in tobacco, but only in trace amounts.

The tobacco companies add extra MAOIs (along with ammonia and sugar) to make the nic hit harder, etc.

This information all came out in the 90's when the tobacco Executives were testifying before Congress.

OP, you may still be detoxing from the additives and natural MAOIs. I had to use WTA because I developed those secondary addictions that normal ejuice wouldn't satisfy. BUT, after quitting smoking, my nic use and WTA use has gone down. It would seem I've developed a reverse tolerance, which is exactly the opposite of what I was taught in grade school about drugs.

-Johntodd

No, the tobacco companies do not add extra MOAI's. I don't know where you are getting this information, and I have heard it before, all from the rumor mill with no credible sources. It belongs up there with alien abduction and I saw Elvis at the quick mart.

As for the OP, sit back a bit and take some time. 9 days off cigarettes is nothing. Don't think in terms of days or weeks, but months, and possible years. It takes time for your system to adjust, so give it whatever time it needs.

 

[DC2]

Also wondering, if this is true, how long should it take to be free and clear of the addiction to the "other stuff" because they say nicotine clears the system within 3 days but do the WTA's and other things take longer..

I'm going to guess it will take longer to shake the HABIT of smoking, and everything that goes with it...
Than it will take to get free and clear of any chemical dependencies...

Maybe a LOT longer.

But no one can predict what will happen with any single person.
Years and years of forum history is proof of that.


Good luck, whatever you decide.

 

[Rickb119]

I'll second (or third) the suggestion that you research WTA. Use the search box in the upper right corner.

 

[blujess]

No, the tobacco companies do not add extra MOAI's. I don't know where you are getting this information, and I have heard it before, all from the rumor mill with no credible sources. It belongs up there with alien abduction and I saw Elvis at the quick mart.

As for the OP, sit back a bit and take some time. 9 days off cigarettes is nothing. Don't think in terms of days or weeks, but months, and possible years. It takes time for your system to adjust, so give it whatever time it needs.

Um excuse me but who are you to tell me that I wasn't abducted by aliens and that I didn't see Elvis at the Quick Mart??! I will have you know that Elvis most certainly shops at the Quick Mart and despite his obsession with his own shoes, he's a very nice gentleman.

Also, I just realized it's been 11 days, not 9. Yay! But I know it can take a LONG time to adjust. I was just curious, again, if there was any actual science to how long the "rest of the stuff" takes to "clear" your system entirely. I'm really just curious. Because, again, every doctor I have ever met has always told me "After 3 days the nicotine is gone...it only takes 3 days to beat the physical addiction to nicotine, the rest is mental!" and I'm sure they've proven this, that nic will be gone from your system after 3 days of abstaining but I have found nothing else at all giving me any kind of time table as to when ANY other substance that we take up into our bodies from smoking will be cleared. It has to be longer for everything else, because if it really was just nicotine and really just 3 days, then everyone would just be able to lock themselves in a room for 3 days and beat it. But they can't. People go in the hospital for surgeries and stay there for a week and then light up as soon as they get out. Sure, a lot of that is psychological, but there HAS to be other chemicals in play that don't clear as fast as nicotine, otherwise people who actually WANTED to quit, would not light up after being off it for a week, there would be no need...the physical side would be gone...all they'd need is the hand to mouth thing...which could be achieved via other means (0 nic vaping, or other things to replace the oral fixation). Or people who quit, after feeling great for weeks, then all of a sudden have very real physical withdrawal symptoms from quitting smoking return out of nowhere....it could be something in cigs that doesn't clear as quickly as the nic. This is what I mean.

Also I know how you meant it when you said "9 days off cigarettes is nothing" (11) and I know you didn't mean it in any negative way, but for ME it's still a big deal. I've never lasted this long ever. 3 days was my max and I was ready to kill people then. So this is huge for me.

 

[blujess]

Also haha I had to google what "OP" stood for. I was like "What is OP and am I down with it? I mean I know I'm down with OPP but I don't know what OP is" lmao hopefully someone catches that reference.

 

[cigarbabe]

Nice to see you Mags!
You as well DC2!
Not down with OPP but WTA is as good as it'll ever get as far as nicquids go imo!
Not sure there is anyone making any with actual effect though.
Is there?
C.B.

 

[blujess]

Also not sure if this study was cited here in this post yet but I just found this: http://www.drugandalcoholdependence.com/article/S0376-8716(14)01986-3/abstract

"Conclusions
Some e-cigarette users were dependent on nicotine-containing e-cigarettes, but these products were less addictive than tobacco cigarettes. E-cigarettes may be as or less addictive than nicotine gums, which themselves are not very addictive."

 

[4evermetalhead]

Hi blujess,

Well i am also wondering several subjects, ideas etc per day and i do read everything that comes to hand and interests me even as low as 1%.
I have been thinking this subject for the past 2 or 3 years and read several articles and studies. Also done some self experimenting with trial and error for curiosity sake, self learn note and thought refinement.

Keep in mind that all this junk in analogs where originally designed as mood enhancers, relaxation or stoned like effect, mild migraine relief etc. each one seperate to the other for its own purpose, cigarettes where men to bring all of these to users under one product which was simple to use as well, compared to what it was before. Later on other products and byproducts where mixed in the process of smocking.

From what i believe, or at least what i have come to an idea so far, is that addiction both physical and mental is not only the chemicals inside analogs and nicotine.
I think that we have taught our body what to do, this means that we have programmed a new operation to be done regularly on muscle memory.
Thus our hands know exactly where to go once a cigarette like object rests on the index and middle finger.
Making your body not to "move" as it was programmed has the same effect as when you where trying to program it for that new move. Have you ever tried to do all things you wanted in a day by keeping one or both index finger straight all the time? Try it, it will soon after 1 hour (up to 1 hour feels funny and amusing) irritate you very very much, but keep doing it for the rest of the day.

This along with our body and brain being used to all these toxins and chemicals, which again we are the ones responsible, create some sort of backfire when quit smocking.
This can be called withdrawal symptoms. This is a chain reaction and could be easily compared with food. Once you stop eating meat and go vegetarian, your body reacts with excessive hanger cravings and some people might have fever or other symptoms.
From muscle memory alone patches gums etc can and most often will fail to help quit smocking. Also high expectations help to the product failing.

Unfortunately brain cells though do not regenerate as the rest of the body cells.
But all is not lost at this point. There are common practices that could help on making the existing cells healthier and stronger. Thus these cells will "replace" dead ones as they can operate twice or even more than what was done before.

This does not mean though that by practicing while smocking analogs, all will be fine. Practicing has extremely little or no effect while smocking.
Check out Lumosity. This is a web based brain training exercise which requires subscription for the "premium" package.
Exercises can be done on the cheap or free as well, with puzzle solving, memory games etc...

Now about nicotine.
Vaping vs smocking can be considered a much healthier alternative (if vapor is lung inhaled).
That does not mean though that is perfectly safe. Its just much better than the traditional way.
This is purely because less toxins are inhaled.
But since PG is petroleum based and VG is vegetable based(most often palm or coconut oil), along with the fact that it heats up causing vapor (burn like after-effect byproduct) which goes to the lungs, is still harmful in a way. (considering that e juice is 0 nicotine, if nic is included as well it just adds up a toxin)
Keep in mind that tobacco plantations use a concentrated PG like liquid to make the processing easier, grow faster and stronger, "natural" effect of bug free plantation and final outcome is what they say "better".
Of course a lot of other things are used on these plants for the same purpose, which i am not aware of and probably they don't want us to be aware of.

You could as well buy organic virginia seeds, plant and take care of the plant/s with 0 chemicals or what so ever (it will take some time) until it grows to the "proper" size. Then you could go through the drying process, leaf fine cutting etc etc and roll it. (i could highly suggest you, use 2 filters on it, and go easy on the first puff) After this compare it with a traditional analog stinker. What you will conclude to is that, the one you planted is nowhere near the ones you paint for to get a pack.

Why? You are missing the rest which you did not spray the plant etc with. Its like cooking a cake with only water. Its not going to be much of a cake, is it???

If vaping is used to quit smocking traditional analog stinkies, then its the best choice either nicotine free or with nicotine.

Sorry for the long post by the way and hope i helped in any way.

Thanks,
the metalhead.

 

[Stubby]

Also haha I had to google what "OP" stood for. I was like "What is OP and am I down with it? I mean I know I'm down with OPP but I don't know what OP is" lmao hopefully someone catches that reference.

OP of course means original post, as in the person who started the thread. I don't know why I use these abbreviations as I miss half of them myself.

Something I keep in mind when these types of subjects come up is that it may not be about addiction at all. It could very well be that for some of us, there was a bit of an unbalance going on before we ever started using tobacco. It may be that tobacco is the thing we have found that balances us and makes us feel....normal. There is this idea that when we have a dependency on tobacco/nicotine, that it is this dependency that is throwing us off, but that may be looking at it backwards. It could very well be that for some people tobacco/nicotine gives us something that we never had, and will lose if we go for total abstinence.

 

[4evermetalhead]

OP of course means original post, as in the person who started the thread. I don't know why I use these abbreviations as I miss half of them myself.

Something I keep in mind when these types of subjects come up is that it may not be about addiction at all. It could very well be that for some of us, there was a bit of an unbalance going on before we ever started using tobacco. It may be that tobacco is the thing we have found that balances us and makes us feel....normal. There is this idea that when we have a dependency on tobacco/nicotine, that it is this dependency that is throwing us off, but that may be looking at it backwards. It could very well be that for some people tobacco/nicotine gives us something that we never had, and will lose if we go for total abstinence.

Hi Stubby,

Yes that could be as well. This though comes more from the subconscious mind than the mind it self.
I guess your mind has the ability to understand or conscious the subconscious, if this make any sense???!!!

Or it could also be that you know exactly why you started smocking.
FYI we as humans/persons also tend to emotionally attach with their objects or with their "routine/way of life". (here perfectly fits the "you dont own your stuff, your stuff own you")
Smocking is one of them but that is a mix of mental-body habit bond.

Thanks,
the metalhead.

 

[Rickb119]

Nice to see you Mags!
You as well DC2!
Not down with OPP but WTA is as good as it'll ever get as far as nicquids go imo!
Not sure there is anyone making any with actual effect though.
Is there?
C.B.

Aroma Juice http://www.aromaejuice.com/ and Wholecig http://wholecig.com/ both make WTA. I've used (use) both and can't tell a difference in the effect. They're both very good. Wholecig is a little less expensive.