Vaping vs Analogs in regards to MAOI's, addiction, and mental health

[blujess]

Sorry for the long post title.

It has been 9 days "analog" free.

I am very curious if anyone knows the actual science behind the differences between an addiction to tobacco, particularly burning tobacco as in "analogs", and just pure nicotine itself as in heated vapor or otherwise, and possibly what the brain goes through when "analogs" are stopped but nicotine is still being supplied via other means (when all those other chemicals are removed from the equation).

Say if someone was using cigarettes to "self medicate" for depression/anxiety. Is it the product/chemicals of burning tobacco combined that really "help" them, or is it mainly the nicotine? Or do we even know? I have read that nicotine itself either isn't an MAOI or it is but it's a less effective one without the other chemicals in burning tobacco. So to this end, shouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that quitting "analogs", even if you switch to vaping, could/should still have an effect on those neurotransmitters? Has this been established? And if so...should it be reasonable to conclude that once free of analogs, quitting vaping down the road (or even, not quitting vaping, but using 0 nic juice) would be easier than quitting analogs once you've been freed of them for an extended time? Not in terms of the hand-to-mouth, inhale-exhale addictive behavior that you can still satisfy with 0 nic, but as in actually what happens in your brain, chemically.

I ask because I have been told that it is not just the nicotine that creates the shift in neurotransmitters and elevated mood that we perceive from cigarettes, which is why replacing nicotine itself as in patches, gums, etc doesn't work as often, as the nicotine itself isn't wholly responsible for these effects on mood. I have also been told the exact opposite. And am having trouble finding research to point in either direction. ALSO wondering if our "heating" it via vaporizing makes it any different to our brains than other delivery methods (patch, gum, lozenge) besides the inhale-exhale part.

Yes I know there haven't been tons of studies. But I also know some of you are hardcore in studying all the studies lol and some of you here are actually in fields where you might know or understand this all a bit more than me. And being that a lot of you "study the studies" I figure there are some veterans who might be more well versed in this particular topic.

 

[madangus]

I don't know too much but from skimming on here, there are NET juices you can get that have the anti-depressive -oid compunds that you don't get in just straight nicotine in juice. Something like that... I think. It's an interesting question.

 

[blujess]

I don't know too much but from skimming on here, there are NET juices you can get that have the anti-depressive -oid compunds that you don't get in just straight nicotine in juice. Something like that... I think. It's an interesting question.

That sounds really interesting and for curiosity sake I will look into those (don't intend on using myself) but actually I'm looking for the opposite lol. I want to be free of those compounds...err, well, I figure if I am freeing myself from whatever was most making my brain happy in analogs besides nic, even though I know nic certainly was too, then nic alone might be easier to beat. Prob still vape 0 though. Just to keep me off analogs and also for the pleasure/taste. Just wondering the "science" to it all. I know that cigarettes were "helping" my depression/anxiety (quotations because does it really help, or just seem to help then make it worse, then help, then make it worse...rinse repeat) and honestly I'd rather help it without chemicals or dependency, which is why I wanted to quit analogs to begin with (well, one of many reasons).

 

[madangus]

I have always had a deep suspicion of the medications for depression only because i think we have little knowledge about how the brain really works and because given the world we have, depression seems quite logical in many ways. I think people should do whatever they need/can to keep themselves going though. Depression is so. Freaking. Hard.

Anyways, sorry i ramble. There are def. threads on here, i am pretty sure that we avoid the -oidy beasty thingies by default I think you are doing the smart thing by trying to know and reduce those kinda things...

Aye when i started in april it was going to be 6 months just to get me to quit, but now i enjoy it so much i am not stressing about when i stop vaping. I feel like it will probably taper off after time. And if every fri night i still want to have some twas brilllig well i can live with that lol

 

[blujess]

I have always had a deep suspicion of the medications for depression only because i think we have little knowledge about how the brain really works and because given the world we have, depression seems quite logical in many ways. I think people should do whatever they need/can to keep themselves going though. Depression is so. Freaking. Hard.

Anyways, sorry i ramble. There are def. threads on here, i am pretty sure that we avoid the -oidy beasty thingies by default I think you are doing the smart thing by trying to know and reduce those kinda things...

Aye when i started in april it was going to be 6 months just to get me to quit, but now i enjoy it so much i am not stressing about when i stop vaping. I feel like it will probably taper off after time. And if every fri night i still want to have some twas brilllig well i can live with that lol

I don't take medication for my depression, I just eat a clean and healthy diet, use therapy and relaxation techniques for my anxiety, etc. I was on SSRI's many many years ago and they made me suicidal, which was scary because I was never ever suicidal UNTIL medication. And I tried many different meds. I am on vitamin D now since that was lacking which can have affects on depression, and I eat good and try to get sun and just manage. Though I still believe that if used correctly medication can be a useful tool for some. But that's off topic...

I have been smoking so damn long I don't know if my mental health issues were actually "helped" by cigarettes or worsened. Heh. Don't remember how I was before since I've been smoking since grade school, shamefully. Obviously, to ME, I perceived them as helpful. Mmm, don't we all. Glad to be off them even if only for 9 days! Wonder if my brain off analogs will stay happy lol

 

[AzPlumber]

I don't know too much but from skimming on here, there are NET juices you can get that have the anti-depressive -oid compunds that you don't get in just straight nicotine in juice. Something like that... I think. It's an interesting question.

WTA (whole tobacco alkaloids) not NET. There is loads of info on WTA here on the forum.

 

[madangus]

Oops thankyou @AzPlumber i got th -oids part right lol

 

[SUPER K]

I don't want to derail your thread, but meds saved my life. Yes, it intensified certain feelings, but I was told that may happen for up to a month until I balanced out. Stuck it out and survived in a better state of mind.

I hope you get the answers you need, everyone reacts to chemicals differently whether it's Nicotine, SSRI$, or any other chemical we ingest.

Good luck, stay up!

 

[cigarbabe]

It is the combination of the chemicals, nicotine and perhaps other additives which make you unable to resist smoking.
I've been vaping for a long time and I had no problem getting off cigs while vaping.... took only three days.
There aren't any good WTA makers around anymore in my opinion which supplied the missing alkaloids that some of us need.
Vaping wasn't enough for a small percentage of us because the essentials aren't in regular jooz.
C.B.

 

[dcfluegel]

may be worth taking into consideration the nootropic effects of nicotine and it's usage in various applied cognitive therapies also

 

[blujess]

I don't want to derail your thread, but meds saved my life. Yes, it intensified certain feelings, but I was told that may happen for up to a month until I balanced out. Stuck it out and survived in a better state of mind.

I hope you get the answers you need, everyone reacts to chemicals differently whether it's Nicotine, SSRI$, or any other chemical we ingest.

Good luck, stay up!

Aw hey I hope I didn't offend you, I did say that I DO believe medicine is a valuable tool for some. I just wasn't one of them. I could list all the meds I've tried but it would be absurd and long lol. All of them had horrible side effects for me and I tried each one for a min of 3-4 months as my psychiatrist at the time insisted. Eventually they had me get off everything and just try more intense therapy. I was one of the cases of being crazy sensitive to everything, side effect wise.

 

[Dan011z]

I suggest you to checking out supplement called Ubiquinol. Its patented in Japan. Its 30 dollrs per month but it basically regenrate every single cell in your body and there is a study that completely reversed cardiac failure by taking Ubiquinol. It also improved my mood and energy dramatically, and mental clarity. Vitamin D is very good also.

The cigarettes do give anti depressive/anxiety affect, but vaping actually make me more satisfied and dont make me tired like analogs do.

I have taken Buspar and SSRI before and they are extremely detrimental in my experience. Took me couple of months to get back to normal after I flushed them down the toilet.

 

[blujess]

I suggest you to checking out supplement called Ubiquinol. Its patented in Japan. Its 30 dollrs per month but it basically regenrate every single cell in your body and there is a study that completely reversed cardiac failure by taking Ubiquinol. It also improved my mood and energy dramatically, and mental clarity. Vitamin D is very good also.

The cigarettes do give anti depressive/anxiety affect, but vaping actually make me more satisfied and dont make me tired like analogs do.

I have taken Buspar and SSRI before and they are extremely detrimental in my experience. Took me couple of months to get back to normal after I flushed them down the toilet.

Yes I know all about Ubiqinol It's basically mega awesome preconverted CoQ10, which I know analog smokers are generally lacking a bit of in comparison. But any way, yeah, I feel FINE though....no depression/anxiety/mood issues since switching. Like, at all. Seriously. That's what got me so curious. I expected some. Now I wonder what was doing most of the mood stuff for me with analogs...hrmmm...

 

[Alien Traveler]

It is the combination of the chemicals, nicotine and perhaps other additives which make you unable to resist smoking.

No. People get addicted the same way on pure (no additives ) tobacco.

 

[Dan011z]

Maybe your thyroid was being suppressed by diabetic mechanism of analogs. Analogs affect your T3/T4 conversion and creates more reverse T3s in your body. Which, results in more antibodies attacking your thyroid.

Now, the thyroid is directly connected to your pituitary gland, which is controlled by your Hypothalamus.

I am sure you know that thyroid is also responsible of depression and lethargy.
These glands are all responsible for hormone regulation in your body and once the balance goes out of whack, you will feel the side effects from it.

I recall from a NCBI research study online that for a short term smoker, serotonin receptors are dramatically increased, and for long term smokers, those receptors actually starts shutting down which causes the person to feel depressed.

Same goes for crystal users, it is assumed that because crystal causes dramatic release of dopamine in your brain, the brain then increases the receptors over time, which requires more dopamine in the future to get the same affect.
However, they actually found that the receptors started to shut down rapidly, going below the levels before smoking crystal.


Now that you got off analogs, maybe those suppressed receptors started to come back alive.

 

[Alien Traveler]

I suggest you to checking out supplement called Ubiquinol. Its patented in Japan. Its 30 dollrs per month but it basically regenrate every single cell in your body and there is a study that completely reversed cardiac failure by taking Ubiquinol.

O, please, do not repeat false marketing statements here. It is just another form of CoQ10 supplement, which is not really useful anyway. It may help in cardiovascular cases, it may be bad for diabetics.

By the way, body cells regenerate by themselves with some exceptions (like brain cells).

 

[blujess]

Maybe your thyroid was being suppressed by diabetic mechanism of analogs. Analogs affect your T3/T4 conversion and creates more reverse T3s in your body. Which, results in more antibodies attacking your thyroid.

Now, the thyroid is directly connected to your pituitary gland, which is controlled by your Hypothalamus.

I am sure you know that thyroid is also responsible of depression and lethargy.
These glands are all responsible for hormone regulation in your body and once the balance goes out of whack, you will feel the side effects from it.

I recall from a NCBI research study online that for a short term smoker, serotonin receptors are dramatically increased, and for long term smokers, those receptors actually starts shutting down which causes the person to feel depressed.

Same goes for crystal users, it is assumed that because crystal causes dramatic release of dopamine in your brain, the brain then increases the receptors over time, which requires more dopamine in the future to get the same affect.
However, they actually found that the receptors started to shut down rapidly, going below the levels before smoking crystal.


Now that you got off analogs, maybe those suppressed receptors started to come back alive.

Interesting. I have had my thyroid checked recently though. Not since I've quit analogs though so don't know if that could be different now. Luckily it's not something that runs in my family on either side, though everyone in my family smokes too lol. And it would be FANTASTIC if that last thing you said was true

 

[Dan011z]

Just wanted to add that some people actually experience hypothyroidism/Hashimoto after quitting analogs, especially women.
Not all, but some, especially long term smokers.

This kinda explains why smoking is harder to quit for long term smokers.
Analogs, temporary elevate certain chemicals and hormones in your body and once you become a long term smoker, receptors in your body adjusts to the temporary elevated levels of the chemicals from analogs.

Once you quit cold turkey, those elevated/lowered receptors are not getting the "usual" amount of chemicals that was supplied through smoking analogs.

From that, some people experience depression while others may experience elevated mood.

Just my speculation.

 

[blujess]

No. People get addicted the same way on pure (no additives ) tobacco.

Pure tobacco or pure nicotine? Wondering if there was a distinction in your statement.

 

[Dan011z]

Whats good news is though, that you feel better after you quit.
I hope you never go back.
Good luck with everything.

ps. I recently went into a backslidden state, because I am currently going through a divorce.
But honestly, I felt like throwing up. I was able to literally taste the TAR in my mouth. It was so disgusting.