Vaping vs Smoking

[YoursTruli]

"These models include subcutaneously implanted miniosmotic pumps, nicotine-spiked drinking water, and self-administration via jugular cannulae.'
Immunosuppressive and Anti-Inflammatory Effects of Nicotine Administered by Patch in an Animal Model

This may not be the study anyone is thinking of Immunosuppressive and Anti-Inflammatory Effects of Nicotine Administered by Patch in an Animal Model
I will admit that I have no background in this at all, so I'm muddling my way through it, but from what I can tell the anti-inflammatory and immunosuppressive effects are largely dependent on dosage. Rats exposed to the equivalent of 4 PAD smoking showed much more profound effects.

Profound? Inserting pumps for nicotine in rats sounds legit. Yet clinical studies testing
for medicinal purposes using nicotine have not mentioned immunosuppression.

I would love to see these studies, clinical studies testing for medicinal purposes using nicotine that show no immunosuppression or even changes to the immune system response.

 

[skoony]

@Lessifer That's it. Same one different source.
Mike

 

[skoony]

Not the ECF. And not a conspiracy theory either. Just propaganda coming from members of vaping establishment posing on the ECF as members - trying to advance their own agenda. It's done all the time ....

Well who's agenda are you advancing? I am not aware that I am posing as a ECR
menber. The last time I checked I was one.

I would love to see these studies, clinical studies testing for medicinal purposes using nicotine that show no immunosuppression or even changes to the immune system response.

This guy sites sources.
The Great Nicotine Myth
Regards
Mike

 

[Lessifer]

I would love to see these studies, clinical studies testing for medicinal purposes using nicotine that show no immunosuppression or even changes to the immune system response.

That was actually the first study about nicotine that did mention immune response. Of course a study not mentioning something usually just means it was outside the scope of that particular study.

Much like I have not seen a study on nicotine dependence absent tobacco. There are a couple of studies about nicotine therapy for therapeutic effects that mention that they observed that none of the participants developed nicotine dependency after the trials were over, but as that was not in the scope of the study it is not included in the conclusions.

 

[Lessifer]

"Have not mentioned immunosuppression" and "show no immunosuppression" are not the same thing.

The one study that actually focuses on it seems to suggest that under 2 PAD equivalent exposure to nicotine, the effects are not statistically significant. Unless I read that wrong, which is entirely possible.

This shows why it is good to have information about a study, like you would find in a published paper, as opposed to a presentation abstract.

 

[skoony]

@Lessifer I am aware of studies purporting that nicotine causes all sorts
of conditions. Pre-natal? Never seen a documented case of nicotine syndrome
baby. Adolescent brains being affected? No nicotine disruptive disorder defence
on the law books yet. Cardiovascular disease? Show me one death certificate
signed cause of death, nicotine. (smoking doesn't count.)

Regards
Mike

 

[Lessifer]

@Lessifer I am aware of studies purporting that nicotine causes all sorts
of conditions. Pre-natal? Never seen a documented case of nicotine syndrome
baby. Adolescent brains being affected? No nicotine disruptive disorder defence
on the law books yet. Cardiovascular disease? Show me one death certificate
signed cause of death, nicotine. (smoking doesn't count.)

Regards
Mike

Yeah, this is a whole different ballgame. We should no longer accept old studies about "nicotine" when they were actually looking at tobacco smoke. If you want to study nicotine, study nicotine.

At least that study was looking at nicotine, of course the nicotine equivalent of 2-4 PAD smoking seems excessive to me.

 

[YoursTruli]

to begin

Evidence for the immunosuppressive role of nicotine on human dendritic cell functions
Nicotine and inflammatory neurological disorders
Novel Therapeutic Approach by Nicotine in Experimental Model of Multiple Sclerosis
The immunosuppressive effects of nicotine during human mixed lymphocyte reaction
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053249809001508
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/accr/prod/groups/cvm/@pub/@cvm/@acc/documents/asset/cvm_asset_118926.pdf
Activation of the Cholinergic Anti-Inflammatory System by Nicotine Attenuates Neuroinflammation via Suppression of Th1 and Th17 Responses
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...2_response/links/00b7d537a26227ffd2000000.pdf
Acta Pharmacologica Sinica - Nicotine and inflammatory neurological disorders
Nicotine inhibits the production of proinflammatory mediators in human monocytes by suppression of I-κB phosphorylation and nuclear factor-κB transcriptional activity through nicotinic acetylcholine receptor α7 - Yoshikawa - 2006 - Clinical & Experimental Immunology - Wiley Online Library

 

[YoursTruli]

You two are big on asking for links and proof so ... where is yours to back up your claims - clinical studies testing for medicinal purposes using nicotine that show no immunosuppression?

 

[YoursTruli]

That was actually the first study about nicotine that did mention immune response. Of course a study not mentioning something usually just means it was outside the scope of that particular study.

maybe the first one you found when you googled but not the first study done on nicotine as a stand alone

 

[YoursTruli]

@Lessifer I am aware of studies purporting that nicotine causes all sorts
of conditions. Pre-natal? Never seen a documented case of nicotine syndrome
baby. Adolescent brains being affected? No nicotine disruptive disorder defence
on the law books yet. Cardiovascular disease? Show me one death certificate
signed cause of death, nicotine. (smoking doesn't count.)

Regards
Mike

Please do the research before saying things you can not possibly back up with factual scientific studies.

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

I am always looking for an excuse that vaping is safer than smoking. It's articles like this that won't let me.

New Study Shows How People Who Vape May Be Making Themselves Sick

Complete BS, my whole life I've gotten sick twice a year, usually around new years eve and once in the summer, since I started vaping I haven't gotten sick once...

 

[Lessifer]

maybe the first one you found when you googled but not the first study done on nicotine as a stand alone

You're right, that should have read "first study that I have seen" since it's not something that I search for.

Thanks for posting the links to the other studies, sounds like interesting reading. Off hand, do you know if any of them show immune suppressing effects with nicotine at around the 1 PAD equivalent?

 

[skoony]

to begin

Evidence for the immunosuppressive role of nicotine on human dendritic cell functions
Nicotine and inflammatory neurological disorders
Novel Therapeutic Approach by Nicotine in Experimental Model of Multiple Sclerosis
The immunosuppressive effects of nicotine during human mixed lymphocyte reaction
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1053249809001508
http://www.cvm.umn.edu/accr/prod/groups/cvm/@pub/@cvm/@acc/documents/asset/cvm_asset_118926.pdf
Activation of the Cholinergic Anti-Inflammatory System by Nicotine Attenuates Neuroinflammation via Suppression of Th1 and Th17 Responses
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...2_response/links/00b7d537a26227ffd2000000.pdf
Acta Pharmacologica Sinica - Nicotine and inflammatory neurological disorders
Nicotine inhibits the production of proinflammatory mediators in human monocytes by suppression of I-κB phosphorylation and nuclear factor-κB transcriptional activity through nicotinic acetylcholine receptor α7 - Yoshikawa - 2006 - Clinical & Experimental Immunology - Wiley Online Library

You two are big on asking for links and proof so ... where is yours to back up your claims - clinical studies testing for medicinal purposes using nicotine that show no immunosuppression?

Can you find a study or two where they are not using nicotine in quantities
that are chronically high or are related to smoking. That would be nice.
In the meantime I'll look for the studies proving that the nicotine in e-juice
is harmful to vapers. Nicotine apparently causes a lot of issues in the lab we
do not see expressed in the real world. I have never heard of nor seen documentation
of nicotine causing any individual harm. Neither in persons I know nor in any
pertinent literature. Other than poisoning.
Not ever has one of my friends came back from the Doctor and said to me,
" The Doc' said its the nicotine."

Regards
Mike

 

[YoursTruli]

You're right, that should have read "first study that I have seen" since it's not something that I search for.

Thanks for posting the links to the other studies, sounds like interesting reading. Off hand, do you know if any of them show immune suppressing effects with nicotine at around the 1 PAD equivalent?

Most show the mechanism of suppression, that is, how nicotine interacts with the immune system and the effects of that interaction.

 

[YoursTruli]

Can you find a study or two where they are not using nicotine in quantities
that are chronically high or are related to smoking. That would be nice.
In the meantime I'll look for the studies proving that the nicotine in e-juice
is harmful to vapers. Nicotine apparently causes a lot of issues in the lab we
do not see expressed in the real world. I have never heard of nor seen documentation
of nicotine causing any individual harm. Neither in persons I know nor in any
pertinent literature. Other than poisoning.
Not ever has one of my friends came back from the Doctor and said to me,
" The Doc' said its the nicotine."

Regards
Mike

un-huh it would also be nice if you took the time to educate yourself by reading the studies instead of blindly spouting off.

 

[Lessifer]

Most show the mechanism of suppression, that is, how nicotine interacts with the immune system and the effects of that interaction.

I'll admit that I've only had the chance to look at one of your linked studies so far, Acta Pharmacologica, which looks to be a meta-analysis. One thing I notice off the bat is they're not differentiating nicotine and nicotine in tobacco smoke.

I have to run out for a bit, but I definitely want to read through the rest of them.

 

[YoursTruli]

I'll admit that I've only had the chance to look at one of your linked studies so far, Acta Pharmacologica, which looks to be a meta-analysis. One thing I notice off the bat is they're not differentiating nicotine and nicotine in tobacco smoke.

I have to run out for a bit, but I definitely want to read through the rest of them.

then you have not read into the study far enough, because it does differentiate.

 

[Lessifer]

then you have not read into the study far enough, because it does differentiate.

Ok, I read it again, and for each disorder they look at they talk about epidemiological data on smoking and the disorder, and then seem to extrapolate about nicotine from known effects. I have not gone through the reference studies, but I didn't see anything suggesting that nicotine was administered without smoke. Did I miss something?

 

[skoony]

un-huh it would also be nice if you took the time to educate yourself by reading the studies instead of blindly spouting off.

It might be nice to confirm for us that in fact there are verifiable and documented cases
of nicotine causing illness at the individual level and not drown one with minutia.

regards
Mike