Vinegar?

[Tracker II]

It really depends on the flavoring that we are using. Capella seems to have less ph than everyone else.. FA and TPA burns my tongue, mixed at higher levels.. Also depends on the nic. quality. We'll just keep playing with it until we get it right.. Good thing is I just make my juice for my family and friends, and they seem to enjoy it..

Does this mean that Capella would not benefit as much (or at all) from Lemon juice or Vinegar?

 

[Jimi D.]

Does this mean that Capella would not benefit as much (or at all) from Lemon juice or Vinegar?

Probably in Capella's fruit flavors. I don't think it would benefit the bakery flavors.. I make Waffle at 20% and it's not acidic at all.

 

[AzPlumber]

Ok so I was playing with numbers and came up with a simplistic calculator for figuring how much vinegar or lemon juice was needed for the total nic juice recipe. I set it so you can plug in the number of drops that = 1ml. Based on that if the ml amount is to small to measure for the mix then you can use drops. I will refine this as I can test results with the litmus paper.

Here it is:

PH Calc

Dan

Dan, i'm a little confused. Is the amount to add reflected as ml's or drops?

 

[Lyndagayle]

Dan, i'm a little confused. Is the amount to add reflected as ml's or drops?

It's drops.

 

[GoodDog]

I wonder if adding citric acid to our nicotine before long term storage would help preserve it longer. According to Kurt some nicotine vendors add it to cover up the taste but would it also act as a preservative?

 

[Scubabatdan]

Dan, i'm a little confused. Is the amount to add reflected as ml's or drops?

If it is below the measurable threshold of ml i.e. .0023ml then use drops. If it is measurable by ml i.e. 1.25ml then use ml's
That make sense?
Dan

Added:
Visual:

Dan

 

[AzPlumber]

If it is below the measurable threshold of ml i.e. .0023ml then use drops. If it is measurable by ml i.e. 1.25ml then use ml's
That make sense?
Dan

Added:
Visual:

Dan

Thanks, took another peak and I get it now. The calc. actualy shows both ml & drops. Sorry, had a before dinner, low blood sugar, after work moment (my story & sticking to it). Great job!

eta: The visual you added confirms my findings

 

[SethG]

I wonder if adding citric acid to our nicotine before long term storage would help preserve it longer. According to Kurt some nicotine vendors add it to cover up the taste but would it also act as a preservative?

Just offhandedly thinking about it it probably wouldn't hurt. Citric acid has dual purpose as a preservative in that it is an antioxidant and it is also an antibacterial agent. I would say that nicotine itself oxidizes with little bacterial influence as my bottle of 100mg fluid kept in the fridge is caved in.

I think probably the most likely cause for the stability factor everyone is seeing with their preparations of acid (malic, citric, acetic) with nicotine is that we are making a nicotine salt which is a more stable form. The forms would be (please correct me if I'm wrong) nicotine-malate, nicotine-citrate, and nicotine-acetate respectively. I think these forms are still vape-able as the nicotine chain breaks off when heated (freebase).

Also, thinking about the flavor keeping potential, most flavorings contain a high order of ester type compounds. Many of these compounds will freely give their oxygen off, the nearest quick combination would be to the nicotine.

 

[pinellaspete]

LOL believe it or not I do troll the forums when I am not busy

But think about it, most everything we use has been PH adjusted for our consumption or skin use. Why would ejuice be any different? Making a neutral ejuice would be easier on the lungs and digestive system. It would be interesting to incorporate this into the calculator by using real world test. i.e. litmus paper to see the PH balance after the key ingredients are added and come up with a formula that works in all cases to modify a high alkaline ejuice back to neutral. 8 drops per 10ml seems to be the norm in virtue of taste but I would like to see it on a litmus test to confirm the taste test as it were. I personally have not used anything but MM, citric acid, and maltic acid with good results, but I am leaning toward lemon juice and vinegar (less allergy reactions) based on the litmus test to find the calculations I would need to extrapolate a consistent formula that could be replicated at different mg and ml quantities.

More to follow.
Dan

Thanks for joining the thread Scubabatdan!

I agree with you, almost everything we eat has acid in it to adjust the pH. I think our target pH should be somewhere between 3.0 and 6.0 pH though. Almost all the foods we eat fall somewhere in that range. If we adjust to 7.0 (Neutral), that will allow bacteria to flourish. Not that it would really grow in our mixes because the nicotine and PG are actually germicides. There are actually very few foods that we eat regularly that are above a pH of 7.0. I'm not sure that to lower pH you would need to add as much acid as your spreadsheet says, but it will be great to test that theory. I'm just thinking about when I need to lower the pH in my pool, now granted I'm not talking about adjusting the pH as much as we are trying to adjust our juices but, it only takes a pound or so of "pH down" chemical to tens of thousands of pounds of water to see results.

Concentrated Lemon Juice Vs. Citric Acid
I have not experimented with the citric acid. Does citric acid have a flavor or is it just sour? The reason I chose lemon juice was that it is mostly citric acid with perhaps some lemon flavoring and it was easy to purchase. I don't know for a fact, but am pretty sure that most lemon juice is made to standard specifications, otherwise you couldn't use it in food recipes. Recipes would have to be brand specific and I just don't see that in the real world.

Vinegar (Acetic Acid)
Raw vinegar has a wide range of acetic acid content. I believe I read somewhere that it ranges somewhere between 3% and 18%. All the vinegar at the grocery store had printed on the label something along the lines of "Diluted with water to 5% acid content". Again, I think they do this so it will work in recipes and not have to be brand specific.

So at least with using lemon juice and vinegar we are working with known and consistent quantities of acids.

I'll be back later tonight.

Pete

 

[Scubabatdan]

Thanks for joining the thread Scubabatdan!

I agree with you, almost everything we eat has acid in it to adjust the pH. I think our target pH should be somewhere between 3.0 and 6.0 pH though. Almost all the foods we eat fall somewhere in that range. If we adjust to 7.0 (Neutral), that will allow bacteria to flourish. Not that it would really grow in our mixes because the nicotine and PG are actually germicides. There are actually very few foods that we eat regularly that are above a pH of 7.0. I'm not sure that to lower pH you would need to add as much acid as your spreadsheet says, but it will be great to test that theory. I'm just thinking about when I need to lower the pH in my pool, now granted I'm not talking about adjusting the pH as much as we are trying to adjust our juices but, it only takes a pound or so of "pH down" chemical to tens of thousands of pounds of water to see results.

Concentrated Lemon Juice Vs. Citric Acid
I have not experimented with the citric acid. Does citric acid have a flavor or is it just sour? The reason I chose lemon juice was that it is mostly citric acid with perhaps some lemon flavoring and it was easy to purchase. I don't know for a fact, but am pretty sure that most lemon juice is made to standard specifications, otherwise you couldn't use it in food recipes. Recipes would have to be brand specific and I just don't see that in the real world.

Vinegar (Acetic Acid)
Raw vinegar has a wide range of acetic acid content. I believe I read somewhere that it ranges somewhere between 3% and 18%. All the vinegar at the grocery store had printed on the label something along the lines of "Diluted with water to 5% acid content". Again, I think they do this so it will work in recipes and not have to be brand specific.

So at least with using lemon juice and vinegar we are working with known and consistent quantities of acids.

I'll be back later tonight.

Pete

Agreed, 6 would probably be a better number to shoot for, the formula in the calc was derived from reading and trial and error. I am waiting for the litmus paper to backup or enchance the formula I presented in the calculator. Of course I will do many controlled test using various acidic agents. I guess the main thing is to measure the PH of all liquids prior to combining and documenting the different PH levels of different brands of lemon juice, vinegar and maltic/citric acid. Then I can round things out with volume to bring the target juice into the 6 PH range.
Dan

 

[Str8V8ping]

Thanks for joining the thread Scubabatdan!

I agree with you, almost everything we eat has acid in it to adjust the pH. I think our target pH should be somewhere between 3.0 and 6.0 pH though. Almost all the foods we eat fall somewhere in that range. If we adjust to 7.0 (Neutral), that will allow bacteria to flourish. Not that it would really grow in our mixes because the nicotine and PG are actually germicides. There are actually very few foods that we eat regularly that are above a pH of 7.0. I'm not sure that to lower pH you would need to add as much acid as your spreadsheet says, but it will be great to test that theory. I'm just thinking about when I need to lower the pH in my pool, now granted I'm not talking about adjusting the pH as much as we are trying to adjust our juices but, it only takes a pound or so of "pH down" chemical to tens of thousands of pounds of water to see results.

Concentrated Lemon Juice Vs. Citric Acid
I have not experimented with the citric acid. Does citric acid have a flavor or is it just sour? The reason I chose lemon juice was that it is mostly citric acid with perhaps some lemon flavoring and it was easy to purchase. I don't know for a fact, but am pretty sure that most lemon juice is made to standard specifications, otherwise you couldn't use it in food recipes. Recipes would have to be brand specific and I just don't see that in the real world.

Vinegar (Acetic Acid)
Raw vinegar has a wide range of acetic acid content. I believe I read somewhere that it ranges somewhere between 3% and 18%. All the vinegar at the grocery store had printed on the label something along the lines of "Diluted with water to 5% acid content". Again, I think they do this so it will work in recipes and not have to be brand specific.

So at least with using lemon juice and vinegar we are working with known and consistent quantities of acids.

I'll be back later tonight.

Pete

citric by itself and malic as well have no scent or color at all . They both taste like lemon juice . As far as the aectic acid in ACV it does vary a lot . Dont automatically trust that 5% labeled on the bottle . I was reading a article that did testing on the acidity of different companies apple cider vinegar all labeled 5% and some were significantly higher and none actually were the labeled 5% . I think i posted this article in the thread somewhere if i remember correctly . Theres no way to really accuratly measure how much aectic is going in our juice with how much its varis but brand .We arnt really using enough to matter though .

 

[pinellaspete]

Hi Tona,

The juice I got here is actually Swedish and it is indeed sightly cloudy. Maybe I should rather drink it

The citric acid that you've mentioned, I figure it's sold as powder, correct? I was looking at it too but wasn't sure exactly how to dilute it. Any recipes?

Sveiks! My wife is of Latvian heritage. She was born in the USA but both my in-laws were born in Latvia. My in-laws actually own a small apartment building in downtown Riga and visit every year.

As far as diluting the citric acid I would use 1/2 teaspoon of citric acid into 10ml of PG. That should be a 20% concentration. You probably won't need much at that concentration to lower your pH. TPA has recently changed their malic acid dilution from 10% to 20%.

Good luck!

Pete

 

[Momster]

Thank you, thank you, thank you all for this thread!!! I just added 4 drops realemon to 5 ml of one of my first DIY recipes that I thought would taste like Rice Krispy treats but didn't, and IT'S AMAZING now!!! I can now taste the pie crust flavoring that I was missing, and the marshmallow flavor has been enhanced greatly. This juice went from barely vapable to, "OMG! I can't vape enough of this juice!".

I'm going to try some distilled white vinegar and/or acv in my tobacco mix to brighten up the flavors - I can't wait to see what happens.

Thank you all, again, for experimenting and sharing your findings in this thread.

 

[Shilo]

So where are you guys getting your malic acid? Does it have any smell? How much would be needed for a 30 ml DIY mix?

 

[pinellaspete]

Here's where I bought my malic and tartaric acid. The also have citric acid.

Here's the link: The Home Brewery - Wine Making Additives

None of the acids smell.

Order the 2oz. sizes, that will be enough to last a few years at least.

You need to make a dilution first. 1/2 teaspoon of acid into 10ml of PG.

For 30ml you would need somewhere between 6 and 18 drops. I would start with 12 drops.

Good luck!

Pete

 

[Str8V8ping]

Iv been getting my malic in lorann tart and sour . Citric and malic work great together from what i read in one of the PDF's posted .3.00 a 30ml bottle is cheap enough for me and it lasts forever . I havent even made a dent in the bottle yet and iv even had a glass of water with some in it .

Also flavorwest sell sour flavor which is just malic acid . Ecigexpress carries it .

 

[Scubabatdan]

Iv been getting my malic in lorann tart and sour . Citric and malic work great together from what i read in one of the PDF's posted .3.00 a 30ml bottle is cheap enough for me and it lasts forever . I havent even made a dent in the bottle yet and iv even had a glass of water with some in it .

Also flavorwest sell sour flavor which is just malic acid . Ecigexpress carries it .

Yeah that is where I got mine like 2 years ago, and I still have 3/4 of a bottle left.
Dan

 

[SethG]

Probably in Capella's fruit flavors. I don't think it would benefit the bakery flavors.. I make Waffle at 20% and it's not acidic at all.

I purchased some citric acid from Akins last night as I'm lucky enough to have a store relatively near me: Citric Acid 100% Pure - Now Foods. I couldn't find the canning citric acid, of course this is absolutely the wrong time of year to try to find canning supplies. I wanted to get pure citric acid to avoid lemon flavor, and also the sugar in lemon juice. I mixed the citric acid with distilled water, approximately 20% solution which is probably WAY stronger than needed. Super sour stuff and I'm wondering what the PH is... I'm too lazy to calculate this right now but it's probably more acidic than any lemon juice is ever going to be.

I've mixed one drop of the citric acid solution into Capella's gingerbread 10% flavoring and I'm not tasting any adverse effects from it. The flavor is "brighter" than I remember, there is a slight aftertaste. I think I'm going to cut the citric acid solution to half strength. I don't feel that this particular flavor would be adversely affected by lemon undertones though.

I'm mainly doing this to test the preservative effects of adding acid to the mix. I'm wanting to run an experiment with 3 or more solutions containing acids to compare side by side the outcome. I'm going to do this with TPA "toasted marshmallow" flavor since this one has been problematic for me. This flavor turns dark brown after several days to a week, gets acrid, becomes very harsh, and the last stage becomes a waxy flavor that in no way resembles the original. I get the same problem with Capella's raspberry, vanilla custard (diacetyl warning!), and several other flavors that I like. I have some vanilla custard I've left sitting as a pseudo-experiment, I think it has turned to tar. I don't know how others can't be having this happening?

I'll post photographic results when I get that far, probably in a week or two.

*Edit tl;dr - experimenting with the long term storage effects of adding acid.

 

[Str8V8ping]

I purchased some citric acid from Akins last night as I'm lucky enough to have a store relatively near me: Citric Acid 100% Pure - Now Foods. I couldn't find the canning citric acid, of course this is absolutely the wrong time of year to try to find canning supplies. I wanted to get pure citric acid to avoid lemon flavor, and also the sugar in lemon juice. I mixed the citric acid with distilled water, approximately 20% solution which is probably WAY stronger than needed. Super sour stuff and I'm wondering what the PH is... I'm too lazy to calculate this right now but it's probably more acidic than any lemon juice is ever going to be.

I've mixed one drop of the citric acid solution into Capella's gingerbread 10% flavoring and I'm not tasting any adverse effects from it. The flavor is "brighter" than I remember, there is a slight aftertaste. I think I'm going to cut the citric acid solution to half strength. I don't feel that this particular flavor would be adversely affected by lemon undertones though.

I'm mainly doing this to test the preservative effects of adding acid to the mix. I'm wanting to run an experiment with 3 or more solutions containing acids to compare side by side the outcome. I'm going to do this with TPA "toasted marshmallow" flavor since this one has been problematic for me. This flavor turns dark brown after several days to a week, gets acrid, becomes very harsh, and the last stage becomes a waxy flavor that in no way resembles the original. I get the same problem with Capella's raspberry, vanilla custard (diacetyl warning!), and several other flavors that I like. I have some vanilla custard I've left sitting as a pseudo-experiment, I think it has turned to tar. I don't know how others can't be having this happening?

I'll post photographic results when I get that far, probably in a week or two.

*Edit tl;dr - experimenting with the long term storage effects of adding acid.

What are you looking for it to do . You should be able to taste a difference in sweetness/sourness and enhancing the flavor .1-3 drops per 5ml. It for sure does work ,that wasnt in question . Vendors have also been using it for a long time . I do think the malic may be what your missing . Like i said earlier citric works as a short term burst in PH which diminishes . Malic stays more on a smooth level . Maybe try some tart and sour which contains both .

I dont think the problem your having is with the flavorings . I use all those flavors and have no issues ,in fact they are great ! Vanilla custard doesnt contain diacetyl . Some said it may contain other stuff but not proven and the person who said it did was a competitor . Van custard is probably the most used flavoring there is and im sure tons of vendors use it in there juices as well . How old are your flavorings ? Maybe they are past the expiration date ? Those are very popular flavorings and i havent heard anyone say anything about the issues your having with darkening or being waxy . My toated mm stays clear as well as my van custard and rasberry stay a light yellow . Acids (malic more than citric)are used in everything to increase the life span of products so it will work for that for sure which is another reason vendors use it . Btw citric acid will also have the same sourness in taste as lemon juice if using too much .

 

[pinellaspete]

I'm mainly doing this to test the preservative effects of adding acid to the mix. I'm wanting to run an experiment with 3 or more solutions containing acids to compare side by side the outcome. I'm going to do this with TPA "toasted marshmallow" flavor since this one has been problematic for me. This flavor turns dark brown after several days to a week, gets acrid, becomes very harsh, and the last stage becomes a waxy flavor that in no way resembles the original. I get the same problem with Capella's raspberry, vanilla custard (diacetyl warning!), and several other flavors that I like. I have some vanilla custard I've left sitting as a pseudo-experiment, I think it has turned to tar. I don't know how others can't be having this happening?

From my experience I have noticed the following:

Fruit Flavors
I think some if not all fruit flavors contain some malic or citric acid as part of the flavoring. I think it would impart some tart or sour flavor so they would taste more like the real fruit. My fruit flavors, before I started adding the acids, seemed to last for a long time. After adding acids to my mix, at 2 drops per 5ml, the fruit flavors look "fresh-mixed" weeks after I mixed them. I use TPA and FA fruits almost exclusively.

Tobacco Flavors
There is a HUGE difference in flavor and longevity after using vinegar in my tobacco mixes. To test this theory I mixed twelve 5ml batches of FA tobaccos on January 24, 2012. I used 2 drops of apple cider vinegar per 5ml. Its been about 10 days now and they are as clear as the day I mixed them! No yellowing or browning to speak of, just clear and they taste great! I have also noticed that this speeds up the steeping process a bit. Most of the tobacco flavors were vapable after just 4 days where it used to take a week of steeping for me. A few tobacco flavors took 5 to 6 days before they were vapable.

Bakery Flavors
I haven't ventured here yet. No bakery recipes in my box.

Pete